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Faction Warfare: Moving Forward.....

First post First post
Author
Lord Meriak
State Naval Academy
#901 - 2012-01-24 13:18:32 UTC
The navy npc should stay in game as they our part of the whole eve. If they go then what ccp our saying is Pod pilots are the empires only defence which does not fit in the story of eve.

Also as an alliance if you pick a side you have to choose as there is a penelty in high sec.
Fidelium Mortis
Minor Major Miners LLC
#902 - 2012-01-24 14:34:07 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Corpse Swallower wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

Great feedback in this thread. I'm taking a few notes and getting a few ideas.

One thing we might be able to do very easily is remove the faction NPCs, letting you freely travel in other factions space. How would you guys feel about that change? I've always found it a bit sad that we've isolated FW in low-sec when it could be done on a much larger scale.


Awesome idea!


terribad idea. if anything increase the npcs in highsec. they should **** your **** up when you enter enemy highsec.

if you remove npcs from highsec. thats gonna make as much sense as flying threw planets.


I believe they should come out in force, but right now the navy response is a bit too concord-like. Going into enemy high-sec is too focused on the NPC mechanic, and the actual PvP is practically overlooked - either bring some speed tankers or a cap boosted BS with decent range. In particular the NPC EWAR seems a bit "unnatural."

ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Wild Geese.
#903 - 2012-01-24 15:16:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Schalac wrote:
I say BS. You can leave militia any time you choose and if you wake up one day and have a ship or item you need but can't get because you are in the enemy militia. Leave militia and get it. That is all you would need to do. But after seeing Loren kill countless comrades and then run to a station in my highsec when I have the capability and the manpower to smite him down and then JC out of there I say no. Have I docked in enemy territory before? Yes I have, but I feel that if you have the audacity to raid an enemies high sec you should be shown no quarter in that space.

You choose the join FW. It is not forced upon you. Therefore if you choose a side that is in opposition to the area you would like to live then you have a problem. I feel it would make FW more meaningful if you couldn't enter enemy highsec and dock at their stations. I feel there would be more meaning to killing those that invade my space and I feel that it was a bad choice to not add stations docking rights to lowsec FW players in conquered systems. In lowsec anyone can erect a POS. Good you have a POS in tama. Now you would have a place to hide when the system is owned by the enemy.


Ahhhh we had a misunderstanding there. I wasn't referring to enemy highsec, I was referring to the militia-controlled stations populating lowsec.

As others have pointed out though, we are not the force that protects the innermost Empire space….there is a distinct difference between the factional military, and the factional militia.

Unless they’re going to rewrite all the history (which they absolutely should if any of what you are proposing would ever come to pass) so that the factions are actually at war with each other, there is a specific reason that the militias only get to take their aggression out on each other in lowsec.

Officially, the four factions are at “peace” with each other, its only the die-hard militant paranoid patriots that carry on a war of their own, but have to do it away from the public view. Extending FW into highsec is a radical revamp of the very story that binds the EvE world together.

The REAL reason that we are a ways off from this (though it certainly has its merits) is that there just isn’t the population of FW participants to sustain extending the warzones to all of highsec.

We can barely cover all the lowsec territories we fight over, with the dwindling FW population that has shrunk due to apathy and frustration with CCP over unfixed mechanics and broken promises.

Extending the existing FW populations to all of highsec would spread us so thin its even harder to find fights. And being able to quickly and consistently log on, undock, and fight is the cornerstone of what FW is all about.

As I mentioned before, the FW community is different than your nullsec crowd because to us, easy fight access is our highest priority. You bring up very valid points about realistically how war should work, but the community as a whole has always been willing to sacrifice depth and realism for the ability to find quality, casual, PvP. This is what we are desperately trying to explain to the CSM and CCP, before they impose more 0.0-style complications on us as proposed in the recent summit minutes.

Until we are so overloaded with activity in lowsec that it causes problems, I see no advantage to spreading us out into high sec. Hopefully future FW improvements will build the population up to a point where your vision is viable.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Rel'k Bloodlor
Guldan Age Stories
Nisuwa Cartel
#904 - 2012-01-24 15:52:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
I don't think we should be able to lock stations. In null those are player built and/or alliance owned. The stations in NPC 0.0 and low sec are owned buy NPC corps. The only one I could see this with is specifically a faction owned station, then I think you should just never be allowed in the other sides if your in militia. As far as letting us in to each others hi-sec Hans has a point. This dose not change my opinion in the posts above tho, just one step of enforcement back not the whole thing open to us.


P.S. i have a plexing idea here--> in this FW thread
Come tell me how bad it is or what parts you hate the most.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 

Uppsy Daisy
Perkone
Caldari State
#905 - 2012-01-24 15:55:11 UTC
You need to update point 3) on the first page. It is fixed in Crucible 1.1 (patch notes here http://www.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?newpatchlogID=3382).

"Using assistance modules on a Factional Warfare buddy who is an outlaw or has a Global Criminal Flag will no longer result in a standings hit from your own faction"
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Wild Geese.
#906 - 2012-01-24 17:24:51 UTC
Thanks for the reminder, Uppsy.

I won't stop till we get the entire list taken care of. Even if this thread is 150 pages by than!!

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#907 - 2012-01-24 17:37:38 UTC
Hmmm .. didn't they promise a blog where we would be able to see some of what they have planned beyond allowing blobs in?

Start counting, they are already a week late .. hahahahahaha.

Thinking of having a doctor remove my balls before the blue turns darker and gangrene sets in!
Damassys Kadesh
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#908 - 2012-01-25 01:04:33 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
I still think they should scale the faction police back one step EX-.5 have none and 1. would be like how .9's are. the .5's would give use all a place to only fight each other only, no hot drops, no pie's, and no wham null alliance. I know as a Gallente pilot this would hurt us as Villor is a .5 but I still think it would be worth it! At least part of the reason fights have gone down in black rise at lest is the quagmire of neutrals that may or may get involved.


I would completely accept this. Variation and balance is key. If you like one style over another, you can choose where to look for fights.

Kade Jeekin wrote:
Denial of assets is the only way to defeat an immortal enemy. For this reason I am for locking out of enemy factions from occupied and hisec stations. If you want meaning and consequence to system occupancy then this would be the most meaningful.


I interpret this as a very null-oriented opinion. The problem again, is that in FW, you can simply quit your militia for a day or use an alt to recover your items. So the system is very easily circumvented, unlike the null mechanic. I believe people would accept a station service ban and work with/around it in order to stay active in their militia, but the flip-flopping in a station-lockout environment would be awful and useless.

Sourem Itharen > Congratulations Lady Kadesh, you have been selected by trial of fire and blood, under the watchful eyes of God, to represent Lord Khanid as his champion in the Imperial Succession trials -YC117

Damassys Kadesh
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#909 - 2012-01-25 01:09:36 UTC
Also, apparently we have been "grumbling" a lot... and all I have to say in response is "yes, please touch us... touch us in the good places ;)"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzR2FyJZTzg&feature=uploademail

Sourem Itharen > Congratulations Lady Kadesh, you have been selected by trial of fire and blood, under the watchful eyes of God, to represent Lord Khanid as his champion in the Imperial Succession trials -YC117

Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#910 - 2012-01-25 03:45:36 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Hmmm .. didn't they promise a blog where we would be able to see some of what they have planned beyond allowing blobs in?

Start counting, they are already a week late .. hahahahahaha.

Thinking of having a doctor remove my balls before the blue turns darker and gangrene sets in!

I for one am planning on going to Fan Fest 2012. (I am in Australia). So rest assured I will be there to ask the hard questions at the Faction Warfare round table...
I have a thread adverting this and seeking to find out who is going and what we should be discussing

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=703856

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#911 - 2012-01-25 10:38:46 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:

I for one am planning on going to Fan Fest 2012. (I am in Australia). So rest assured I will be there to ask the hard questions at the Faction Warfare round table...


You never know, CCP might even show up this time.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Galatica789
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#912 - 2012-01-25 15:06:55 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
You need to update point 3) on the first page. It is fixed in Crucible 1.1 (patch notes here http://www.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?newpatchlogID=3382).

"Using assistance modules on a Factional Warfare buddy who is an outlaw or has a Global Criminal Flag will no longer result in a standings hit from your own faction"


Bout damn time
Ocih
Space Mermaids
Somethin Awfull Forums
#913 - 2012-01-25 17:41:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ocih
Faction War should also get free clones and if you die on duty you get a combat version of noob ship - worth losing, worth undocking in, not uber even by T1 standard. One you will PvP in, like it or not so if someone wants to contract them, the dummy buying it is a bullseye if he undocks.

- Based on Rank
Clone discount to clones are free.

- Based on Rank, replaced faction issue frigate, cruiser battleship. They can die but they are free. It will promote redonculous PvP inside the faction groups and will be ... get ready? Fun!!!
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Wild Geese.
#914 - 2012-01-25 21:05:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Ocih wrote:
Faction War should also get free clones and if you die on duty you get a combat version of noob ship - worth losing, worth undocking in, not uber even by T1 standard. One you will PvP in, like it or not so if someone wants to contract them, the dummy buying it is a bullseye if he undocks.

- Based on Rank
Clone discount to clones are free.

- Based on Rank, replaced faction issue frigate, cruiser battleship. They can die but they are free. It will promote redonculous PvP inside the faction groups and will be ... get ready? Fun!!!


Interesting ideas, about the only thing I have to say about the clone thing is that most of us have little to no issue with clone loss. Warping a pod out of danger is one of the first skills I teach new pilots, and one of the reasons we all enjoy lowsec is lack of bubbles, so we can put in fancier implants and give ourselves a little more PvP edge if we can afford it.

And I agree about replacing losses - I’ll tell you my own personal flavor of reward improvement. If this were my call, I’d institute some LP-based insurance supplements to Faction Ships. (lets ignore rank for now since rank is meaningless IMHO until they fix it, it says you can carebear and nothing more)

Let’s say you’re cruising around in your fleet stabber. Assuming you are an Minmatar pilot, and you are killed by an Amarr pilot, maybe you’d get 10,000 LP back in addition to your Pend Insurance. This would ONLY be valid to FW-on-FW kills. You’d never get full amount back, so there’s no reason to ever blow these up for insurance purposes, but it would reduce the isk loss for legitimate FW PvP and keep more pilots fighting more often, with less need to go grind for isk.

The reason I suggest it for losses rather than kills is that no matter how you slice it – top damage, final blow, initial point – someone in an engagement gets shafted. I think just supplementing people on the loss end is an easier way to compensate, because if you die than obviously you were participating in the fight. To me this is superior than having 5 people help to take down a target and only one person (who may not have lost anything) gets the reward, and bickering over fairness. Most good FW pilots throw all PvP loot to the losers in the fleet anyways, even if it was their own fault. We're pretty nice people.

Experienced, ace pilots have less issues keeping enough isk around to keep fighting. Those who are new can enjoy less downtime between fights, because its easier for them to go buy a new ship.

It also directly moves some of the payout from PvE directly to PvP, which to me is even better than tying it to plexes, which could still be farmed without PvP.

It’s not perfect, it wouldn’t fix everything, but it gets people back in the fight, provides a little incentive for more FW pilots to use faction ships (which is good for immersion) and reduces the amount of plex grinding or mission grinding one has to do to keep their hangar stocked.

(I'm sure I said this before somewhere, maybe even in this thread, 20 pages back!)

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Wild Geese.
#915 - 2012-01-25 21:38:07 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Hmmm .. didn't they promise a blog where we would be able to see some of what they have planned beyond allowing blobs in?

Start counting, they are already a week late .. hahahahahaha.

Thinking of having a doctor remove my balls before the blue turns darker and gangrene sets in!

I for one am planning on going to Fan Fest 2012. (I am in Australia). So rest assured I will be there to ask the hard questions at the Faction Warfare round table...
I have a thread adverting this and seeking to find out who is going and what we should be discussing

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=703856


BTW, I'm extremely jealous. I wish I could be there to lead the charge. I'm sure you'll do an excellent job though, Har, you've been one of FW's most stalwart defenders. Keep in touch, I'll most certainly have a list of stuff for you to ask them on my behalf!! (Not that I have much to say besides stumping for the top issues in the thread).

I'll definitely check in on that thread when I have some time (still keeping with 789 other threads atm) and see whats being tossed around....but i'm not worried. We all want the same thing in the end, more or less.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

ShardowRhino
Legion 0f The Damned
#916 - 2012-01-26 07:36:38 UTC  |  Edited by: ShardowRhino
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:


I only wish the current council understood why we participate in Faction Warfare as well as you do! You've summarized our sentiments precisely.

Thank you for your contribution, its nice to have some fresh blood in this thread - far too many of the same people in here saying the same thing, even though bumps are always appreciated.




In a way I think that CCP has a split personality. On one hand they want to have this image of these big empires that are either at each others' throats, or on the verge of. At least that was what I was made to believe when I entered the game when it had the title of "cold war", I thought of the real cold war, but wondered why the playerbase was not participating in it. They want to produce novels, CCGs, and board games. They want to churn out stories set within the "universe", videos depicting events taking place, yet the only thing cold war about the game was the temperature CCP had to letting us in on it. We were banished to the sidelines, unable to participate making the game feel as though we were doing our own thing with an old 1950's movie studio paper backdrop in the background.

CCP wants the game to be pvp in every possible way. Every possible way but when it comes to the storyline. If you wanted an ounce of a feeling of being part of the game instead of someone wondering in the background detached to the story, you had to run missions. Even that is a joke of a means of participation. If you liked the universe's lore then you had no other choice. If you wanted to shoot at other players you had to go to low or null sec and participate in fights not of the big 4 empires, but of player run groups looking for individual gains and glory within the game. The closest an alliance got was that mimtar rebel based alliance that allowed anyone to rat in their space.

It seems almost hypocritical of CCP to peddle storyline based goods and produce fiction posted on the site and a supposed dedication to pew, yet create this great rift between interaction with the game universe and the player base that want to be a part of it. It is like going to an amusement park and being told "NO!" when attempting to get on a ride and then being directed to go play in the parking lot and be grateful for it. It is even more hypocritical when players say that want to pvp, but have CCP ignore them because they are not the favored children.

CCP has made great efforts to incentivize 0.0 play, moon mins for billions of isk with little effort, player owned stations, pos dreamland, big fat tastey rats with officer loot, the best ores in the game, drone regions, capital ships, super capital ships, no obnoxious gate guns, the best sites. The list continues to grow.
ShardowRhino
Legion 0f The Damned
#917 - 2012-01-26 07:41:41 UTC
I understand empire space as it is, the reduced potential gains are balanced by the greatly reduced risks, though one of you bloody annoying goons popped an alt of mine in a 1.0 system the other day. Things balance out for the most part. Yet, FW is a hybrid that CCP created, yet CCP has yet to truly understand. A slight buff to rats in low sec was a good start, but beyond that I had not heard of anything that can be considered an attempt by CCP to incentivise FW combat to the playerbase. IF CCP was as hellbent on having as much pvp as possible, and CCP likes to give more and more to those in 0.0 in an attempt to draw players out of empire space, and if pvp is part of the risk and reality of 0.0 gaming, then why not incentivize FW combat? Get the hardcore empire carebears that have never risked a single frigate, never lost a pod, never shot another player out of hate, anger, spite, rage, fear, or just pure fun in an attempt to destroy them into pvp by giving them reason to take a step in that direction. The worst part of pvp is taking that step of undocking to put your isk on the line, its not the actual loss of the ship, its that first step. Its far to easy to say " maybe tomorrow" or "when I make a few more million/billion isk" or " some day when I have the SP to compete". If they can stay in empire, have the chance of being shot and of shooting others, but having a safezone to retreat to, it could get more out of the their shell.

Of course, if CCP was as hellbent on pvp eveywhere and in every possible way, we wouldn't have to be posting about this. They would make it so that FW was seen as something to get into within a month or two of joining the game. I noticed that since I returned to the game and got dumped into an npc corp because the one i was in last folded while I was unable to get into the game due to a lack of shader 3, that I lose 11% of my isk to a corp tax. Thats a good way to nudge players to get into player corps so that they can be wardec'able. A reverse of something similar could be done to get more into FW, meaning more strictly PVE players into PVP, at least on a part time basis. Remove the tax for those in FW, those that operate within X many jumps from an empire's low sec gates. It could scale based on the depth of the player's position. A bonus could be given to FW players that rat or mission closer to 0.4 gates then those doing so in 1.0 systems. The closer to the front they are, the higher the chances of raid catching them off guard. Yet, those risks are balanced out by the additional gains being made by being near the front.

Those that are near the front but are not popped and profit will have more isk to risk in pvp. Anyone being a chicken but attempting to abuse the FW bennie will likely become a target eventually, but then again I remember seeing some serious chicken **** in 0.0 where players who were constantly seen farming all day continued to farm all day regardless of screams for help in various systems. Kind of surreal to hear about all this 0.0 crap of everyone having balls to pvp, yet cruising through in a BS I couldn't afford to lose to go support players I barely knew at all while cruising through the system and asking the farmers if they were heading out, if so I could wait for them because we could travel as a pack instead of just me at my best possible speed only for them to laugh it off and tell me that it wasn’t their problem.
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#918 - 2012-01-26 12:10:20 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Har Harrison wrote:

I for one am planning on going to Fan Fest 2012. (I am in Australia). So rest assured I will be there to ask the hard questions at the Faction Warfare round table...


You never know, CCP might even show up this time.

They'd better...

Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#919 - 2012-01-26 12:12:34 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Har Harrison wrote:
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Hmmm .. didn't they promise a blog where we would be able to see some of what they have planned beyond allowing blobs in?

Start counting, they are already a week late .. hahahahahaha.

Thinking of having a doctor remove my balls before the blue turns darker and gangrene sets in!

I for one am planning on going to Fan Fest 2012. (I am in Australia). So rest assured I will be there to ask the hard questions at the Faction Warfare round table...
I have a thread adverting this and seeking to find out who is going and what we should be discussing

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=703856


BTW, I'm extremely jealous. I wish I could be there to lead the charge. I'm sure you'll do an excellent job though, Har, you've been one of FW's most stalwart defenders. Keep in touch, I'll most certainly have a list of stuff for you to ask them on my behalf!! (Not that I have much to say besides stumping for the top issues in the thread).

I'll definitely check in on that thread when I have some time (still keeping with 789 other threads atm) and see whats being tossed around....but i'm not worried. We all want the same thing in the end, more or less.

I intend to keep them honest Big smile Having some clear things to discuss/explain to CCP would definately be of benefit.

Rel'k Bloodlor
Guldan Age Stories
Nisuwa Cartel
#920 - 2012-01-26 15:31:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
Ocih wrote:
Faction War should also get free clones and if you die on duty you get a combat version of noob ship - worth losing, worth undocking in, not uber even by T1 standard. One you will PvP in, like it or not so if someone wants to contract them, the dummy buying it is a bullseye if he undocks.

- Based on Rank
Clone discount to clones are free.

- Based on Rank, replaced faction issue frigate, cruiser battleship. They can die but they are free. It will promote redonculous PvP inside the faction groups and will be ... get ready? Fun!!!


I like the noob ship idea.
All it would take is to make it one you join Faction Warfare that your noob ships always comes filly fit with civilian stuff.
Not awesome just useful in a pinch. no miner, just fully fit so you can dock and undock and help, cuz its your job.
May be even a civilian level point with a bad range like 3-5k and a civilian DCU in the low.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats.