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I've read a lot of posts on this topic and I'm in agreement with most of them... this nerf is really really bad...
Having an active cloaky camper in my system for a few days gave me ample time to watch some good youtube videos people have posted for pvp, and there seems to be a very common reaccurance on their videos... t he death speed of the fighters. Mainly the Sirens go first, and they pop like grapes. I've watched a few where they launch the fighters after repair/reload and the instant they come out frigs/cepters are already railing them before they've even pushed F1 to engage something and by the time they get on target a few fighters have already become space dust. In pvp all it takes is designating 1 person to watch for fighter launches and having them call it when they see it and that's pretty much it. Yes, fighters do heaps of damage, yes, fighters are pretty quick, but when that mwd comes on their sig blooms to hell and back and just makes them splat faster. As mentioned before any sort of ewar on them splatters them rapidly too... If you want to make them squishier... bring back the damage output pre-nerf right after the fighter squadron changes were implemented in game.

Now for PvE...
I'm a carrier ratter myself and am one that has enjoyed rolling around in the isky goodness that is dead npc's. I'm also one that isn't able to financially sub outside of game so I am forced to rat to buy plexes, and at their ever increasing cost (yes i know they recently lowered a bit) it's a task all in itself to play the game to be able to play the game. At the current cost of fighters, if you bloom the sig to sizes somewhere between frigate and cruiser, the rat aggro on the fighters will add up fast.
Example: 1 rock haven can yield 30mil if the spawns are all maxed sized (no faction no dread). If you lose 2 or 3 fighters at 13mil a pop, that haven only served to buy you another few fighters. Someone like myself (and I know quite a few others) will be quickly found to not playing anymore as that precious plex isk went entirely to fighter replacement.

I saw the comment about learning to work with/around the changes and adapt. Yes, this can be done, we can all rat in subcaps and get significantly smaller bounty ticks, we can all pvp in caracals and rifters so very little isk is ever spent... but this is taking the invested skillpoints (as has been mentioned by several) and putting a lot of people who like battleship class or larger ships (myself as one) and just putting it obsolete. After the T1 cruiser 'balances' were introduced making them a fair bit stronger than before people stopped using T2 ships. When T3Ds came out people went even cheaper pvp with those, and all these ships basically severely outclassed upper level ships causing them to fade out. Only time you see battleships anymore is in massive groups, only time you see battlecruisers anymore is 20+ with 3-6 logi (I'm probably exaggerating here but you see my point) Yes we adapt, but we adapt down into levels where we don't find it fun for us or our playstyles, we are forced into someone elses play style and just makes it dull for those who don't fancy the interceptor kite fleets or 0 f*cks given carcal blobs. If you spent all that time training up into a vessel that large, it just feels like the fun is sapped out when you're spent time in it is now solely gone into it's maintenance rather than it's fun or functionality.

I'm on board with the fighters don't need to sit idle after a target has been destroyed. If your rocket volleys are on cooldown and so are the gun cycles, they just sit there and take it in the face until the guns are free to activate on a new target... making them move would be nice.
Decrease the size of support fighters if you insist on making them even easier to kill, knowing the 1 useful support fighter you have is going to constantly be wasted would be nice to carry a few extras.
Seriously rethink the sig change, even if you increase the sig radius of all the fighters, don't increase it so much, you're rendering them dead before they've even locked a target.
If you insist they have to be easier to hit, at least give them a fighting chance with some more EHP since as it stands the only ehp bonuses are from rigs or thanatos/nyx, and I don't think everyone wants to be forced to train those just to make their drones live 1 second longer.
maybe even give the ship's bonuses to the fighters, since amarr and caldari don't get damage buffs like minmatar and gallente do, why not pass down the ship bonuses like the amarr pass down armor resists, caldari pass down shield resists, all supers pass down the ewar resistance so their fighters/bombers stand a bit of a chance.

CCP you always talk about risk vs. reward and/or balancing... take a good hard look at this proposed change, there is no reward. You're always looking for the give and take, well with this it's all take with no give. If you must nerf the hell out of the fighters, give something back to balance the reasoning.

You can make fighters move while waiting for weapons to exit cooldown by clicking orbit on anything, even next target but it is even more clicking that is already too much on a carrier. The problem is that moving now don't help much anyway.

I have simple solution how to fix current fighter mechanic. All actions done to fighters should be divided by fighter amount.
If you web squadron, it shoudl be effective 1/x where x is the current amount of fighters. The same should be with all ewar and even damage done to compensate that only one fighter in the squadron is taking damage. Then you can raise sig as it is needed to be.

In fact "solution" is to order to you're fighter to orbit an item when they end to kill.

Problem : BAd connexion with a suddently ping => bye to you're fighter.
You can't play with you're 2 hand? You will have not time to make they orbit and fire before loose one.

It"s not a problem of the nerf, it become a problem of game accessibility.


So true question is : Why CCP decide to take sanction against player with the badest connexion ?
Why CCP decide to destroy content ?(less carrier in space, less people who farm, less newbro who salvage, less target for roammer ... less content).
Why CCP decide to make decision to take sanction against people who can't use 2 hand to play?

CCP don't reed here, maybe after update contact press of you're country and explain to they a game company take sanction against people in fonction of they're connexion/health... And see how many time before CCP decide to answer by allow to fighter to orbit wreck when they kill and not to stop.

In game and lore terms signature radius is a measure primarily of how easy something is to lock onto and hit cleanly. Hence why Target Painters increase sig while Command Bursts can decrease it. Neither is changing the physical size of the ship, they're just changing how the ship appears to guns and sensors.

Why even bother asking for feedback if you are going to just implement game changing features? This is a serious question.

You posted your proposal, asking for feedback. The feedback was, in the majority, negative. You did not make any responses to a lot of valid comments, just let people talk among themselves, and then make the changes regardless.

I generally don't have issues with most of the updates to the game, and I like the fact that the game does change & evolve over time -
but asking for feedback, and then not getting involved in the discussion and making the changes is a waste of discussion.

There has been a lot of constructive feedback in this thread, it's not all people flinging their poo at the walls. I'm a beginner carrier pilot and this change is making me regret wasting all that time and ISK.

My question stands - why ask for feedback if you are not actually going to pay attention to it. And feedback was explicitly asked for by the first sentence in the original post.

Of course there was feedback saying carriers should be nerfed - by people who don't fly carriers. Actual carrier pilots who use them constantly have not had anything positive to say about these changes.

Not to mention that while they are happy to wave the nerf bat with abandon, small things like making fighters actually DO SOMETHING while idle and not stand still to get shot into oblivion is "We recognise that fighter behavior isn't ideal. Its something we'd like to iterate on in the future.". How about when doing a big game changing update that effects an entire tier of ships, don't just nerf wholesale, but also make some logical changes that offset the nerfs.

Honestly it just defies logic, that after asking for feedback, not responding to any of it, we also get answers like the above, that fundamental issues that don't make any sense (why would a sentient fighter just stand still) are something they would "like to iterate on". Then do it.

I understand the need for balancing the game constantly, but it all seems to be going from massive buff to massive nerf, rather than incremental steps. All the while, much more important issues remain in the game.

Don't get me wrong, I love the game, and I see changes as a good thing on the whole, but I think CCP needs to either be more involved with the community, or just stop asking for feedback if they are not actually going to address any, since all it does is cause people to get angry and wastes their time formulating replies and coming up with potentially good solutions.

This is what you probably didn't understand from the discussion. First you fix bugs and then you can nerf ... erm balance stuff if needed. And carriers were not OP by any means to justify that nerf before fixes.
People are rightfully angry because carriers are not like rest of the ships, where you can just sell it and fly other one. One invested millions of sp to master it, bought very expensive bpo's to be able to produce them and there is little to no point to fly other capitals. What to do with this skills now? I don't want to sell this character or shuffle sp to do something else. I want to fly carrier like I did before.

CCP removes off grid boosts, and changes the mining barge and exhumers. Ruins my isk per hour ratio.

Finally train into a carrier and move past now pointless slow mining. CCP changes the way fighters work and how rats aggress them. Ruin my isk per hour ratio.

Isk slowly drains away. Forcing me to stop fleeting up, and in the end stop playing all together.

Good work.

Yeay carrier ratting tears, best tears!


Kudos CCP, carry on!

The guy is a goon poster on paplinks in disguise. Stop arguing with him, he obviously never flew or targeted a carrier and still going with stupidity after my numerous attempts to educate him on fighter mechanics in this thread.