These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[March] Balance Tweaks: Fighters, Supercarriers & Burst Projectors

First post First post First post
Author
O2 jayjay
Night's Paladins
Siege Gold
#281 - 2017-03-09 13:02:24 UTC
100m for fighters? Lol why? Well are you going to increase a T3 destroyer sig? I dont get why you people make these random changes. It wasnt that long ago eve only had 13000-20000 active subs. Due to Really bad nerfs that the player base was against. Let thing be and prosper by not pissing us off. Maybe we can hit 100k online one day.

Lastly for the rorq change. Makes sense a HS incursion runner can make 34mil every 9 mins in a bil isk ship with very little risk involved. But shame on the null guy for spending 9 bil in a rorq and having other players on standbyi in multi bil isk ships to save him. Not one does he have to worry about hotdrops, the XL WH that housing 100man t3 crusier gang with logi just randomly spawned in his system. Now he is getting neefed to making what HS incursion runners make. Risk vs Reward factor makes sense........Not.
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2017-03-09 15:30:04 UTC
O2 jayjay wrote:
Lastly for the rorq change. Makes sense a HS incursion runner can make 34mil every 9 mins in a bil isk ship with very little risk involved. But shame on the null guy for spending 9 bil in a rorq and having other players on standbyi in multi bil isk ships to save him. Not one does he have to worry about hotdrops, the XL WH that housing 100man t3 crusier gang with logi just randomly spawned in his system. Now he is getting neefed to making what HS incursion runners make. Risk vs Reward factor makes sense........Not.


I don't really have a dog in the fighter/rorq nerf fight, BUT I've been saying the same thing about incursions for years. Incursion income is the ISK-income benchmark for "endgame" players, and it drives me batshit crazy that a WoW-like PvE-raid mechanic just happens to be one of the easiest sources of "big" ISK in the game, AND you can do it basically risk-free in highsec.

Incursion income either needs to be nerfed or moved to low/null because L5s, 5+/10s, Rorq mining, etc, also are restricted to low/null. C'mon CCP, this is a no-brainer.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#283 - 2017-03-09 15:45:18 UTC
Magosian wrote:
I don't really have a dog in the fighter/rorq nerf fight, BUT I've been saying the same thing about incursions for years. Incursion income is the ISK-income benchmark for "endgame" players, and it drives me batshit crazy that a WoW-like PvE-raid mechanic just happens to be one of the easiest sources of "big" ISK in the game, AND you can do it basically risk-free in highsec.

Incursion income either needs to be nerfed or moved to low/null because L5s, 5+/10s, Rorq mining, etc, also are restricted to low/null. C'mon CCP, this is a no-brainer.


Goons were pinged to whine NERF HISEC on forums back in 2013, when hisec was perceived by CFC as the biggest enemy, and some still think that ping is actual. They were given examples where to cry about incursions, missions blitzing, mining lowsec ore in anoms, etc.

The result is well-known, CFCSM stuffed that in CCP face, and hisec was nerfed to the ground. But they still cry about it, habits are hard to break.

low/null incursions income is already better, 2013 called, they want their nerf hisec tears back.
MidnightWyvern
The Bosena Accords
Warclone Initiative
#284 - 2017-03-09 15:56:23 UTC
Well, after skilling into Falcons not long after those got the nerf bat, now I got into my first Carrier to try and increase my ISK income just in time for the NPCs that already aggro my Fighters constantly to now be doing so even more often.

I kind of feel like I just wasted 1.5 billion ISK on something that before now I was really looking forward to and was enjoying using.

Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!

Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)

Cade Windstalker
#285 - 2017-03-09 16:25:10 UTC
Juvir wrote:
If you re-read, that was a response to what CCP said, not you.


Yes? And?

Doesn't make him any less wrong.

Zazz Blammy Matazz wrote:
I understand that is what they are doing, I'm just saying IMO the initial bump on this balance pass should have been a tad more. I'd be perfectly content if each of the added duration bumps was an addition 20 seconds to the proposed bump.


Personally, just eyeballing things, I agree, but I'll fully admit I don't have enough experience with Burst Projectors to fully judge the potential impact of this and given how much they're used right now I doubt anyone can say for sure where the point of OP-ness is. I'd rather CCP take things incrementally rather than over-buff things and end up with a mess they have to try and quickly fix before it gets out of hand.

See -> Rorquals.

O2 jayjay wrote:
100m for fighters? Lol why? Well are you going to increase a T3 destroyer sig? I dont get why you people make these random changes. It wasnt that long ago eve only had 13000-20000 active subs. Due to Really bad nerfs that the player base was against. Let thing be and prosper by not pissing us off. Maybe we can hit 100k online one day.

Lastly for the rorq change. Makes sense a HS incursion runner can make 34mil every 9 mins in a bil isk ship with very little risk involved. But shame on the null guy for spending 9 bil in a rorq and having other players on standbyi in multi bil isk ships to save him. Not one does he have to worry about hotdrops, the XL WH that housing 100man t3 crusier gang with logi just randomly spawned in his system. Now he is getting neefed to making what HS incursion runners make. Risk vs Reward factor makes sense........Not.


Um... Eve hasn't had 20,000 subs since like early 2004. I think you may be confusing subs with average PCU, and even that hasn't been that low on average since about 2006.

Also those incursion numbers are, um, ridiculous. No one runs sustained numbers like that, and certainly not with 1b fits. Carrier ratting in null makes almost twice the sustained ISK of Incursions and requires nothing more than yourself and a system to fly in. No waiting for fleets and less overall risk of losing your ship due to someone else's screwup.

Magosian wrote:
I don't really have a dog in the fighter/rorq nerf fight, BUT I've been saying the same thing about incursions for years. Incursion income is the ISK-income benchmark for "endgame" players, and it drives me batshit crazy that a WoW-like PvE-raid mechanic just happens to be one of the easiest sources of "big" ISK in the game, AND you can do it basically risk-free in highsec.

Incursion income either needs to be nerfed or moved to low/null because L5s, 5+/10s, Rorq mining, etc, also are restricted to low/null. C'mon CCP, this is a no-brainer.


High Sec incursions also require a ton of logistics to keep running, lose way more ships than most people realize, and still get solidly beat out by basically everything Null offers in terms of solo income.

Has it occurred to you that maybe the reason CCP hasn't nerfed incursions, at least since that one initial big tweak they did, is because they're actually pretty happy with the trade off in risk, reward, and organization required for them relative to solo ratting in a Carrier in null?

If this was truly a no-brainer then CCP would have done something by now, the fact that they haven't suggests that your assumptions might just be bad.
Dictateur Imperator
Froosh INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#286 - 2017-03-09 17:22:37 UTC
This post need an answer of a dev. (i don't care of player answer).

1)When you give a lot of order you're squad stop : actually not a big deal, sometimes lost 1 fighter (1 for maybe 50 ano). After update maybe if it's 1 per anomaly it will be a big problem.
2) If you're connection have some latency (like ping to 2000 -3000 ms) and go back to normal , or a avearage ping of 500 ms ... You will loose fighter. Ping could come from player... and you're infrastructure => >Actually you do'nt loose fighter or mayber one for X anomaly.
3)if you don't play with keyboard shortcut for medical reason for exemple ... you can't use you're carrier anymore with a normal mouse. Or if you play on trackpad same problem. Actuallly you can , after you will loose free fighter.


So let me be clear : 1) Beug issue to solve, tou're problem we can write to support for each time it will happen.
2) Same as 1, unless you can proof it's the player connexion who lag (not the FAI, THE PLAYER connexion), beacause yes in some country when the player have sign to you're game he agree CGU... and law of his country. You could have legal issue, so prepare to reimburse.
3) Legal issue if you want more detail and you are CCP employee pm me.

So i repeat before change fighter, solve problem 1, after make fighter auto orbit when they kill, and after make you're actual change.

Thank.
Cade Windstalker
#287 - 2017-03-09 18:20:30 UTC
Dictateur Imperator wrote:
This post need an answer of a dev. (i don't care of player answer).

1)When you give a lot of order you're squad stop : actually not a big deal, sometimes lost 1 fighter (1 for maybe 50 ano). After update maybe if it's 1 per anomaly it will be a big problem.
2) If you're connection have some latency (like ping to 2000 -3000 ms) and go back to normal , or a avearage ping of 500 ms ... You will loose fighter. Ping could come from player... and you're infrastructure => >Actually you do'nt loose fighter or mayber one for X anomaly.
3)if you don't play with keyboard shortcut for medical reason for exemple ... you can't use you're carrier anymore with a normal mouse. Or if you play on trackpad same problem. Actuallly you can , after you will loose free fighter.


So let me be clear : 1) Beug issue to solve, tou're problem we can write to support for each time it will happen.
2) Same as 1, unless you can proof it's the player connexion who lag (not the FAI, THE PLAYER connexion), beacause yes in some country when the player have sign to you're game he agree CGU... and law of his country. You could have legal issue, so prepare to reimburse.
3) Legal issue if you want more detail and you are CCP employee pm me.

So i repeat before change fighter, solve problem 1, after make fighter auto orbit when they kill, and after make you're actual change.

Thank.


So, I know you really don't care if another player answers, but you included the words "legal" in there so you're basically guaranteed not to get a dev response so...

Regarding number 1, there's a Fighter tweaks thread over in the Test Server forum right over here that notes a change to the APM restrictions:

CCP Lebowski wrote:
Relaxed the throttling on giving orders to Fighter Squadrons. This should result in less occurrences of busy squadrons during high APM usage.


Regarding number 2...

It's not CCP's responsibility to prove that it's your stuff that messed up. They only have to prove to their own internal satisfaction that it's not their stuff that messed up, beyond that the burden of proof is on you. Also there's a chain of other entities along your connection to CCP any one of whom could be responsible for lag on your connection.

And regarding number 3, that's unfortunate but while I bet CCP would be happy to have your feedback or better understand your experience I doubt they'll promise anything or hold back a change on the basis of a single edge-case user.
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#288 - 2017-03-09 21:26:56 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
Goons were pinged to whine NERF HISEC on forums back in 2013, when hisec was perceived by CFC as the biggest enemy, and some still think that ping is actual. They were given examples where to cry about incursions, missions blitzing, mining lowsec ore in anoms, etc.

The result is well-known, CFCSM stuffed that in CCP face, and hisec was nerfed to the ground. But they still cry about it, habits are hard to break.

low/null incursions income is already better, 2013 called, they want their nerf hisec tears back.

I don't know what you're saying, unless you're suggesting that highsec incursion running is fine where it is. I don't happen to think so, and I don't see how goons whining about it a few years ago is relevant.

Nerfed how?

As it stands, players still get 150mil/hour in highsec incursions and should not be possible. Goons bitching about it doesn't mean squat.

I suppose it's moot; this thread really isn't about incursions, but i do find it humorous that null rorq mining is being compared to it. If that doesn't tell you anything, nothing I have to add will either.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#289 - 2017-03-09 23:46:48 UTC
Magosian wrote:
I don't know what you're saying, unless you're suggesting that highsec incursion running is fine where it is. I don't happen to think so, and I don't see how goons whining about it a few years ago is relevant.

Nerfed how?

As it stands, players still get 150mil/hour in highsec incursions and should not be possible. Goons bitching about it doesn't mean squat.

I suppose it's moot; this thread really isn't about incursions, but i do find it humorous that null rorq mining is being compared to it. If that doesn't tell you anything, nothing I have to add will either.


Hisec incursion running is fine where it is. It is a highly active form of PvE which requires your focus, meaning you can't do it long, it is competitive, it is time-limited, it is risky, it is a major hassle, it is logistically challenging to do every week, and it's NOT top income in eve PvE despite all the factors involved.

And you could get 150mil/hour in a carrier, technically you still can - until this change lands and carriers are done and gone. In a much safer environment of nullsec - risk to incursion ships in hisec is much higher.

Rorqual mining depends on supply and demand, rorquals mine more - more supply - less income. I mean, look at mineral prices, low ends lost 33% (and more) of their value since the rorqual rebalance, that nerfed them almost as hard as CCPL did, and removal of carriers will devalue minerals even further. Thus despite I agree that the taken approach to balancing is wrong and will remove any credibility in future reworks and buffs, I could totally see it coming and didn't invest in a rorqual - it was all too good to be true.

Carrier nerf I didn't see coming, I waited till the first tweak, and stepped onto injectors only after months passed and things seemed stabled enough... and got rekt by CFCSM of CCPL new campaing to NERF NULLSEC FOR THE SMALL GUY after seeing the remarkable success in depopulating hisec as the result of NERF HISEC campaign.
Logan Jakal
Echelon Research
Goonswarm Federation
#290 - 2017-03-10 11:19:22 UTC
Yeah, because fighters having the radius of a cruiser is totally legit.
LECSA 1
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#291 - 2017-03-10 11:44:59 UTC
Say bye to carriers .
M3tamorph
Tr0pa de elite.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#292 - 2017-03-10 14:04:38 UTC
First NERF... then fix the problems with the way fighters work and fix UI for displaying properly damage, etc...
Good call CCP.
O2 jayjay
Night's Paladins
Siege Gold
#293 - 2017-03-10 15:15:59 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Juvir wrote:
If you re-read, that was a response to what CCP said, not you.



[quote=O2 jayjay]100m for fighters? Lol why? Well are you going to increase a T3 destroyer sig? I dont get why you people make these random changes. It wasnt that long ago eve only had 13000-20000 active subs. Due to Really bad nerfs that the player base was against. Let thing be and prosper by not pissing us off. Maybe we can hit 100k online one day.

Lastly for the rorq change. Makes sense a HS incursion runner can make 34mil every 9 mins in a bil isk ship with very little risk involved. But shame on the null guy for spending 9 bil in a rorq and having other players on standbyi in multi bil isk ships to save him. Not one does he have to worry about hotdrops, the XL WH that housing 100man t3 crusier gang with logi just randomly spawned in his system. Now he is getting neefed to making what HS incursion runners make. Risk vs Reward factor makes sense........Not.


Um... Eve hasn't had 20,000 subs since like early 2004. I think you may be confusing subs with average PCU, and even that hasn't been that low on average since about 2006.

Also those incursion numbers are, um, ridiculous. No one runs sustained numbers like that, and certainly not with 1b fits. Carrier ratting in null makes almost twice the sustained ISK of Incursions and requires nothing more than yourself and a system to fly in. No waiting for fleets and less overall risk of losing your ship due to someone else's screwup.

http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility
Juvir
Omega Nebula BattleWorks
Requiem Eternal
#294 - 2017-03-10 15:23:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Juvir
O2 jayjay wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Juvir wrote:
If you re-read, that was a response to what CCP said, not you.



[quote=O2 jayjay]100m for fighters? Lol why? Well are you going to increase a T3 destroyer sig? I dont get why you people make these random changes. It wasnt that long ago eve only had 13000-20000 active subs. Due to Really bad nerfs that the player base was against. Let thing be and prosper by not pissing us off. Maybe we can hit 100k online one day.

Lastly for the rorq change. Makes sense a HS incursion runner can make 34mil every 9 mins in a bil isk ship with very little risk involved. But shame on the null guy for spending 9 bil in a rorq and having other players on standbyi in multi bil isk ships to save him. Not one does he have to worry about hotdrops, the XL WH that housing 100man t3 crusier gang with logi just randomly spawned in his system. Now he is getting neefed to making what HS incursion runners make. Risk vs Reward factor makes sense........Not.


Um... Eve hasn't had 20,000 subs since like early 2004. I think you may be confusing subs with average PCU, and even that hasn't been that low on average since about 2006.

Also those incursion numbers are, um, ridiculous. No one runs sustained numbers like that, and certainly not with 1b fits. Carrier ratting in null makes almost twice the sustained ISK of Incursions and requires nothing more than yourself and a system to fly in. No waiting for fleets and less overall risk of losing your ship due to someone else's screwup.

http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility


Early 2004 is incorrect if you look at the graph there... peak PCU was just barely 12k as it rolled into 2005 according to that link. It has breached 60k multiple times between 2010-2014, and has only broken 50k twice since then.
Juvir
Omega Nebula BattleWorks
Requiem Eternal
#295 - 2017-03-10 15:33:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Juvir
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Juvir wrote:
If you re-read, that was a response to what CCP said, not you.


Yes? And?

Doesn't make him any less wrong.


It not only makes him less wrong, it makes you more wrong. You responded to what he said as if it was directed AT you, and it was unrelated to you entirely. It shows you're not reading to understand what a person is saying, but to react. Try slowing down and reading what is actually being said, instead of skimming and flaming.

While I don't agree entirely with everything he is saying due to the way he is saying it, it doesn't help to provoke a person either. The idea here is for feedback, and rage posts are generally ignored by CCP anyway. There's no need to stoke the fire and make matters worse.
Jason Richter
Star Frontiers
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#296 - 2017-03-10 15:49:55 UTC
Considering in Sanctums I've had issues with 3-4 LR FB's getting volleyed off field before their MJD could spool up, this change will be an undesired one.
Sandra Isu
Space Cavalry Regiment
#297 - 2017-03-10 16:59:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Sandra Isu
I'm sad because another nerf comming to carriers to the point of considering giving up the game for now.
But not because nerf itself but because of how it was done. No UI improvement so we can see how much hp fighter has, no fix for npc aggro so they won't jump one squadron at once instead of spreading it to all of them. Bad fighter mechanics like no assist/guard, standing still after attack, no auto aggro etc. This is not how things should be done.

And funniest thing is that because my carrier loses too many fighters on sisi (lost two on last haven wave and having 3x drone hp rigs didnt helped) I was thinking that maybe I will take him for some pvp since I no longer need it. But guess what. I remembered why I was not getting it for pvp earlier - because he had to poor dps against smaller ships and it was too easy to kill/counter fighters ... So what should I do with it now?

And if you think that I am overreacting, then I have to tell you that when I lost internet connection and relogged fast I lost already 6 t2 fighters and it hurts. I don't even want to know how many I will lose next time after this change.

Btw is there any chance to have capital and fighter skills refunded? Because as I understand this change is not going to be postponed.
Vinch Vondrichnov
Drama Sutra Incorporated.
#298 - 2017-03-10 17:15:47 UTC
Sandra Isu wrote:
I'm sad because another nerf comming to carriers to the point of considering giving up the game for now.


Good, i'm looking for a carrier pilot.

Sandra Isu wrote:

And if you think that I am overreacting, then I have to tell you that when I lost internet connection and relogged fast I lost already 6 t2 fighters and it hurts. I don't even want to know how many I will lose next time after this change.


Don't lose internet connection ?

Sandra Isu wrote:

Btw is there any chance to have capital and fighter skills refunded? Because as I understand this change is not going to be postponed.


See above.
Father Manlove
Sheep Can Hear A Zipper From A Mile Away
#299 - 2017-03-11 04:08:41 UTC
Why even bother posting this thread when you obviously don't want any feedback and are gonna push it out after 2 weeks anyway? Seems like a waste of everyone's time.
Syco Saisima
Vector Galactic
#300 - 2017-03-11 06:43:24 UTC
I usually try and come up with a paragraph or two on WHY i think something is bad. However i don't need to for this Fighter nerf as it is already blatantly obvious why it's bad if you actually carrier rat or do LvL 5 missions. Especially in Level 5 missions there is now NO WAY to mitigate damage and NOT lose 2-3 fighters in a mission MINIMUM. It is a bad and unwanted update by the people who actually pay your bills. Stop smoking crack and stop changing things that aren't broken.