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I made no statements one way or the other about proportions or anything of the sort, and neither has Fozzie. Some people use fleets of Skiffs instead of Hulks. Some people will always choose lower risk over higher risk and higher reward.



Wouldn't actually help if the total amount mined is vastly exceeding the amount being consumed. Note that the price of Mex has started falling as well in the last month, over about the same time Excavator Drones shot up in price. If bottlenecks were the only issue then we'd be seeing a spike in the price of those minerals matching the drop in the others. Instead we're seeing drops across the board.



First off, all that stuff about 'roids depleting and cycling down is already true today, so you can't try to find some math to factor that in and then say that's part of the current nerfs.

As to how to deal with it, run a rock scanner and keep track of how much ore is left in your rocks. If you're about to run one out it might be worthwhile to either leave it or time your move around it depleting. In fact with the yield nerfs you'd actually spend less time moving because you need to spend more time on each rock, making this less of a factor in yield not more.

Ideal yield on a Rorqual post-changes is going to be something like 3-3 1/2 T2 Hulks, that still makes it by far the best ship to have in a belt if you can afford one. The big limiting factor on that right now is the price of the drones, but if demand drops then the price will drop as well, making the ship more affordable for those still using it.

As for 'economically rational arguments' take a look at the price of minerals. The market is flooding, prices are dropping, and supply is massively outpacing demand at the moment, despite the massive and in-demand mineral sinks we have in the form of Citadels. There's also the fact that the Rorqual isn't even being used to boost much these days, it's only being used as a mining ship despite being a fantastic booster. On top of that we have anectdotal evidence that it's pulling people who would never have thought about mining previously into doing so, purely because of how good the Rorqual is.

That's both economics and game balance covered. If you don't find those 'rational' then "c'est la vie".



Actually you're both wrong, because if you'll note the only thing that's changing is the cycle-time on the *Excavator* drones, not on mining drones overall.

When the 'Excavator' ore mining drones cost 700M instead of 1,7B a piece, this change will make sense

Not just because of this..

But because of a build up of stuff relating to industry and solo play..

I have just biomassed all the characters on 2 of my 4 accounts, I've tried to hang on hoping for something positive, but while ever Fozzie is here it's doubtful if this'll ever happen.

I love the game and I'm going to fanfest, but, like others, I'm now struggling to find a way forward, or a good reason to log on anymore...

I'll re-evaluate the remaining 2 accounts going forward after fanfest.

Cade, seriously get off you're damned horse. You do this **** in every thread and it triggers me every time. Go take a break and get your nose out of CCP's ass for a moment so those who are *directly* involved in mining can give their opinion on how to fix the addressed issues rather than praise your almighty CCP who can do no wrong.

*breathes*

Okay rant aside.

PANIC
-Simply disable use of all external modules for the duration. The player has chosen to take themselves out of the fight by making themselves immune to it. The reasoning here should be simple enough to understand.
-Possibly act as a cyno when activated and be given a LO requirement for activation (to get around the above. Alternatively, no cyno, get a friend to light that cyno).

Industrial core should either:
1) Have a reduced cycle time/HW usage to compensate for higher movement requirements from increased belt size
2) Act as NSA and not lock you in place. In return it loses it's current defensive and offensive bonuses.

I'm partial to #2 as this bring's it's risk more in line to that of a carrier/super with equivalent rewards.


Excavators should not have their yeild reduced at all from the current. What you should do is look at anomaly spawn times within 0.0 space as well as re-look at mineral balance within the belts to reduce the desire to export excess to market hubs like Jita.

Read my first line.

Read my second line, then think.

Go check my posts going back a year or 18 months about the small guys getting shafted all the time.

Unlike a lot of guys I was already trained into a Rorqual well before these changes and drones hit, but I didn't bother with the new drones...unlike some.

These guys are now being deliberately shafted by CCP and Fozzie in a way indicative of how large swathes of the player base have been treated over about the last 2/12 to 3 years.

Personally I'm sick of waiting to be blindside by the next nerf bat....

BTW..enough of the CCP fanboi stance, it's getting sickening and boring to read now.

That's exactly it... it seems to much like bait and switch to me. Baited us to go and spend billions on injectors only to nerf it this fast this soon and so much. I mean 2 nerfs in 3 months that took 30% each time... There is so many other ways to fix this than attacking what so many have invested into. Nerf the panic mod... I get it... but nerf once again the amount it can mine. Why would I spend and risk 13 bil on a rorqual mining that can only mine as much as 2 hulks now? This is why I believe that those that invested so much should get reimbursed.

Trying too hard to make a conspiracy out of this.

If the idea was to reduce the cost of caps then why not reduce mineral requirements? Why make a change that reduces mineral worth and everything linked to them across the board?

The **** is wrong with people?

If you have a problem with my views, oh well not my problem. Though for the record I don't think CCP can do no wrong, I just tend to give them a lot more of the benefit of the doubt than most, and I'm often already thinking in the same direction they are. Comes from knowing my game design and knowing the game in general pretty well.

If you have a problem with my arguments then refute them.

If you can't do that then that is also not my problem, though I may take a small amount of enjoyment out of your annoyance and general bitterness.

I would also like to remind you that your experience in the game is by no means universal or globally applicable. Just because you mine does not mean you speak for all miners.

Also assuming that I *don't* mine is a bit funny, given your only apparent evidence for this is my lack of agreement with you.

As to your ideas, the yield needs to drop. The first nerf didn't do it, the second one seems to be. It might could gain back 5% but probably not much more than that. The external modules thing doesn't actually fix the Entosis problem. As Fozzie pointed out, you already can't Entosis and PANIC, it breaks the Entosis, the problem is that you can then use the PANIC as an emergency button to save your Entosis ship.

No reason to mess with cyno requirements or make the PANIC act as a cyno, the person can just light one themselves, simply don't include that on any module restrictions.

Having the Core not lock you in place removes most of the downsides to it, not a fan.



I'll be frank, this is straight tin-foil hat thinking.

There's zero evidence that CCP are trying anything like a bait and switch. If they'd just nerfed it 50% the first time people would have screamed bloody murder, same as they're doing now, but louder.

CCP, rather clearly, over shot with the first iteration of the Rorqual. The first round of nerfs equally clearly failed to halt the slide in mineral prices or produce any significant change in player behavior. CCP, and every other game dev, needs to be free to adjust their design up *or* down, or the game is going to pretty quickly go to ****.

You, and everyone else, who invested large amounts of ISK on this bet made just that, a bet. It's no different from times in the past when people have made market bets on changes CCP have announced and lost big. Either because those changes changed, or because the changes didn't have the effect the speculators expected.

My personal hope is that you and everyone else who got bitten on this will be slower to rush for the next shiny new thing that seems too good to be true, because it probably is and is about to get nerfed.

What CCP certainly can't do is refund you or anyone else. They haven't completely changed the Rorqual, made it worthless, or even made it so you can't earn back your investment, they've just increased the time required for you to do so. If CCP had to refund everyone every time they made a change there would be basically zero investment in this game, because every patch something would be getting refunded. That would *suck*.

I seen it coming, pointed it out in many places, yet **** hit a fan.

It's the sheer speed and scale of these changes that's got so many panties in a knot.

For years, the Rorqual was the unloved apex of the Industrial tree. A great behemoth of a machine that would do nothing other than sit in the safety of a POS shield, providing system wide boosts. I remember one former corpmate who would log in straight after downtime, load up their Rorqual with fuel, start up a standing mining fleet and activate the boosts. That Rorqual sat in that POS shield for MONTHS. This was The First Age of the Rorqual.

Last November, changes were made and all of a sudden, a ship that had been dear to the hearts of many if only in the scale of its disappointment, became a viable ship to actually fly. Rorquals were removed from the safety of the POS shield and thrown into the hurly burly in the belts. The Second Age of the Rorqual had arrived and a golden time it was for those who already had characters capable of flying the beast.

A great many players, myself included saw the Rorquals out in the belts and thought: "sweet, FINALLY I have an actual *reason* to train into this ship". So we trained. Oh dear Lord how we trained a whole suite of skills that we'd never have spent time on otherwise. We invested in the drones, rigs, hull and fittings. We trucked in Heavy Water by the Occator load along with piles of 3200 Cap Booster charges.

We bought into the dream that Fozzie had sold us. It's an expensive dream. It's a dream that requires great risks to fulfill and it's a dream that takes considerable time to fully skill into.

The dreamers came from across New Eden. From deepest nullsec right up to the very borders of HiSec.

Even the fringe dwelling denizens of C1-C4 Anoikis bought into the dream. Trucking in compressed ore by the Miasmos load. Building capital components and setting up capital shipyards specifically to offer up a Rorqual to the grace of Bob when (s)He decides to bless us with an Ore site in our home wormholes.

In January, barely two months after the initial changes, tweaks were made to yield. Wise heads nodded sagely and proclaimed "yeah, well, it was sucking up an insane amount of Ore, kinda had to happen...."

Thus, we entered the Third Age of the Rorqual.

Mining yields were down on The Golden Second Age, but were decent enough that we persisted in following the dreams sold by Fozzie.

Players saw these changes and thought 'meh, it's still a solid mining vessel', so they skilled, they trained, they purchased.

Then in February came the news that Fozzies Dream was undergoing another set of tweaks. Wise heads nodded sagely and proclaimed "indestructible long range low fatigue Jump HICs are a clearly a problem, CCP is right to fix this".

Then we discovered the extent of the changes and we saw that yet another nerf to mining yield was on the cards. The second serious nerf in as many months.

This news has upset the Dreamers, we the foolish followers of Fozzie.

The dream started to fade even while workers toiled away in capital shipyards to build them. Students of Mining Foreman V and Advanced Spaceship Command V suddenly saw their future careers vaporized before their very eyes.

We bought into a dream only to have the dream descend into Dante's Inferno before we could make the first repayment on our shiny new mining toys, and certainly long before many of us have managed to pay out our 'student loans' for training and recover the sunk costs of the ship and drones itself.

There is uncertainty over the exact extent of how these changes will affect total yield. This uncertainty leads to fear, which in turn has led to anger that the changes have come so fast, not giving players a chance to alter their plans in time. Anger that the dream we will realise is not the dream we were sold.

But most of the anger is reserved for Fozzie himself.

Anger that apparently he never considered the repercussions of a low-fatigue, long range jump ship that can pack enough heavy scrams to reliably tackle a supercarrier and then giving it an invulnerability mode.

Anger that Fozzie has decided to change his mind on such short notice, making a lot of players regret some of their recent training and purchasing decisions. Anger that we will be left with vastly expensive assets that are rapidly declining in value while simultaneously being forced to spend more time recouping initial investments.

Most of all, we're angry because Fozzie's own reasoning for making the change is self contradictory. Apparently the Mineral market needs CCP intervention, but the value of Excavator Drones is left to the market. A market that is currently in freefall as legions of min-max EVE nerds get out their calculators and pocket protectors to figure out if the risk:reward of using Hulks outweighs the risk:rewards of using a Rorqual.

Does that clear it up for you?