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[March] Rorqual and Mining changes

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Author
Mr Bignose
The East Perimeter Trading Company
#501 - 2017-02-26 20:22:10 UTC
So, got dropped on today by a large fleet AHAC and BS fleet with heavy neut pressure. all the subcaps on grid died immediately. I managed to half refit to high cap (before my depot was RFed) and run my injector giving me enough cap to run my hardeners and booster for a couple of minutes. then my capacitor was drained, my tank broke and I hit the button.

at no point during P.A.N.I.C.was I thinking that ewar would be handy right now or that my dead subcap miner friends would have benefited from being frozen on a bubble****ed grid with me for a few more minutes before I joined them in their inevitable deaths. it was pretty clear it was the rorqs who needed saving, not the mining fleet, and P.AN.I.C. was simply buying time for the reponse fleet. this is in practice how P.A.N.I.C. is actually used and it's not quite as advertised.

so tl;dr in practice if you nerf entosis or ewar during P.A.N.I.C. it won't be vaguely missed by actual mining rorquals.
Tron Blackdust
Kriegsmarinewerft
Goonswarm Federation
#502 - 2017-02-26 22:40:49 UTC

How would it be with a new beginning QuestionAttention


- remove the mining drones
New capital mining lasers are being introduced
(Mats like other T2 things) ore and pi
and npc trade old drones for the new laser

-remove the indu core
Since the rorq is now mobile, the panic module can be deleted
building-costs
3 times a capital
Ehp + dps ~2 times a capitalship
Boost of a orca + 25%

- make the moonmining as announced an active thing
Thereby less people will mining normal ores
This reduces the minerals on the market and keep the price stable


-entosis modules can only fited on capitalships Attention
no more useless sovfu...

No further restrictions and or problems correctQuestion
wrong but this could be a start
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#503 - 2017-02-26 23:53:10 UTC
Dear Fozzie;

No-one disputes that the PANIC module needs some reworking and balancing. Indestructible, long range, low fatigue Jump HICS are a problem, we're 100% in agreement on that. Simply making the PANIC module act like the carrier Network Sensor Array will 100% solve this problem (no use of EWAR modules when active).

However, your proposed changes go a lot, lot further than just addressing this one area of mutual concern. To be blunt, the proposed changes to Rorqual mining yield are both insanely heavy handed and completely unnecessary.

I would suggest there are several different changes you could make to address the 'oversupply' of some minerals (something only you seem to think is a problem).

The most obvious change would be to alter the respawning mechanism for Ore Anomalies in upgraded 0.0 systems. Currently, once you mine out a Colossal Ore Anomaly, a new one spawns in that system near instantly. Perhaps change Ore Anomalies to behave like Ice Belts where they respawn four hours after being mined out? Currently Trit prices are going down simply due to oversupply of Trit and a rather chronic UNDERSUPPLY of Mexallon making for a major bottleneck in production chains. If there was more Mexallon available, 0.0 miners wouldn't need to export their Trit/Pyreite surplus, which wouldn't upset the hisec miners with their CONCORD protection (and seriously, the only people who might be whinging about Rorqual mining yields are the hisec miners who are taking very, very little risk by comparison).

Have you actually run the numbers on what a combination of reduced raw yield coupled with faster cycle times will actually do to Rorqual mining yields? We all know that paper-DPS figures are a long way shy of actual applied DPS in combat. The same applies to paper mining yields. The extra travel time being added to Excavators will utterly kill off their ability to efficiently mine ore. If you cut Rorqual mining yield down to roughly 1.5-2 Hulks (that's on-paper yield, not actual in-belt yield which will be lower again), there will be no reason to ever use a Rorqual. In this instance, the preferred mining platform will once again be the Exhumer line of ships and the preferred Mining Booster will be the Porpoise. There will be literally no sane reason to ever undock in a Rorqual except to use it as obvious bait.

The reasoning you have used to justify nerfing Rorqual mining yield is spurious to say the least and you've been extremely self-contradictory about your motives for such a change. On the one hand, you claim a need to interfere in the EVE market because of falling mineral prices. In the same breath, you justify the exorbitant cost of Excavator Drones as a function of the market forces of supply and demand. Which is it? I predict that the changes you are proposing will lead to a complete collapse in demand for Excavator drones, leaving a great many people sitting on a pile of now-worthless drones that we paid north of ISK1b each for.

If you go down the path of swinging the nerf bat so quickly and with such reckless abandon, will there be some kind of compensation for those of us who built and trained into Rorquals?

Perhaps a one-off, one-time only, opt-in offer of reimbursing the Hull, Rig and Excavator Drone costs as well as reimbursing the SP spent training into Rorquals AND extracting and reimbursing the cost of the Skillbooks?

The Capital Industrial Ships skillbook is ISK500,000,000 and is required to fly exactly ONE ship. Given that Rorquals only recently became worthwhile to train into for many people and given just how quickly you feel it necessary to nerf it into uselessness, such a reimbursement is only fair.

And now for the ISK15,000,000,000 Question: As for myself, I'm in quite the quandary. My Rorqual is in a C4 wormhole, so I only get to use it when Bob decides to grant me an Ore site. So far, I've mined back enough Ore to nearly pay for two Excavator Drones. Do I sell the drones now and try to avoid the upcoming and entirely predictable price crash? Do I melt the Rorqual down and use the minerals for something useful? Do I extract the skills and put them back into something useful? Or do I wait and pray for some sort of sanity to prevail in Reykjavik?

I really do have to ask: did you not think some of these things through BEFORE you made the Rorqual changes last November? Surely some of the problems that have arisen should have been glaringly obvious from the outset.

Risk is supposed to equal Reward. You're removing all the Reward while keeping the Risk at the same level. This is not the way to balance something.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

Andrei Rianovski
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#504 - 2017-02-27 00:10:07 UTC
Making asteroid-lock a requirement to activate the PANIC module is just really, really, really weird.

Better nerf-solutions are available; unless CCP specifically wants ECM to be an effective counter to the PANIC activation, in which case it would be nice for that to be stated directly ... because otherwise (no, still) it's just really weird.

... And I don't even have anything to do with Rorquals!
Stud Duficious
Nous Defions.
Initiative Mercenaries
#505 - 2017-02-27 01:33:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Stud Duficious
HOW MANY OF YOU WOULD LEAVE THE GAME OVER THIS?
Cade Windstalker
#506 - 2017-02-27 01:47:23 UTC
Andrei Rianovski wrote:
Making asteroid-lock a requirement to activate the PANIC module is just really, really, really weird.

Better nerf-solutions are available; unless CCP specifically wants ECM to be an effective counter to the PANIC activation, in which case it would be nice for that to be stated directly ... because otherwise (no, still) it's just really weird.

... And I don't even have anything to do with Rorquals!


Which explains why you think this. The Siege mode makes you ECM immune and the minimum you can get a stock rorqual with 5s down to for lock range is around 148k, so an implant or sebo makes you immune to damps as well even if you warp to a ping and back.

In the few instances where you can't lock a rock for whatever reason, and can't dock up, then you've probably just been massively out-played and they deserve the kill.

jizzah wrote:
Let me add one more question to the (almost definitely pointless) argument before I call it quits and endure the changes rather than maintaining the vain hope they'll actually listen.

A speculation that's been made is this-the number of solo miners will drop due to there being more isk to be made super ratting (see Cade Windstalker's point). On the same trend, chars that used to multibox with a mass of hulks (you know who you are) before changes, were training them into rorquals.

What will happen when the rorquals being sold by the solo miners are being bought by the indy pros, and the 25% nerf is cancelled out by 25% more rorquals being fielded overall.

What will happen if ore hitting market stays the same? Will there be another nerf, then another, and another. Until we're back to using them as jump freighters and crushing ore at a pos.
...


This seems a bit unlikely. Anectodally I know a *lot* of old high SP pilots who either trained into or could already fly and just bought Rorquals due to the amount of ore they could pull in. I know significantly fewer industrialists currently doing the same. Even though some of them have quite a few accounts the balance here is still Rorqual-negative on the whole. This is currently reflected in the current price of Excavator drones, which has dropped enough in the last three day to almost completely cancel out the rise in prices over the last month.

Even on the off chance that you're correct and the long term result is still a lot of Rorquals we'll probably only see more nerfs if we're *only* seeing Rorquals and no mixed Rorqual Hulk fleets. Fozzie flat out stated that their goal here is for the Rorqual to be used for both mining and boosting, rather than just as a super-miner.

A longer term change would also give more time for the market to adapt, rather than the current flood of minerals and consequent collapse in the markets. This would also give CCP more options rather than just hard nerfs to adjust the Rorqual. If they want to make them more expensive to run they could introduce a new item that is reasonably in-demand but takes core components of the Excavator Drones to manufacture, thus driving their price up.

Coelomate Tian wrote:
Bingo. We can speculate as to whether or not it should have been surprising, given predictable greedy human behavior, but I think you're spot on.

The more I think about it, the more I think this nerf might actually work quite well: it is likely to drop single rorqual income levels well below single carrier income levels (assuming the fighter signature nerf doesn't kill the profession entirely), which should push the meta closer to where it's always been: multiboxers can earn more mining, single boxers can earn more actively shooting rats.

It will also make the bar higher for rorquals to match supercarrier income, so some people will settle for "just" super ratting instead of firing up 3+ rorqual accounts.

The end result will be fewer total rorquals mining and more pilots creating isk via ratting, both of which should help stabilize ore prices in the short term.

If the problem really was EVERYONE, including single-pilot players, rushing into rorqual mining, then this could smooth things over. Multiboxed rorqual fleets will largely be replacing the large multibox mining fleets that were already possible at massive scale. We'll see...


My evidence on this is somewhat circumstantial but I personally know probably half a dozen combat and ratting pilots who trained into Rorquals due to the Ascension changes and another half dozen who were looking at it when these nerfs dropped and have decided not to as a result.

On top of that if you look at a lot of the people complaining quite a few aren't from industrial corps or alliances, they're from null PvP groups.

I know this is all hardly conclusive, but I'd bet the number of people mining in Null went up a *lot* after Ascension and is going to drop off over the next month or so.

Coelomate Tian wrote:
Thanks for running through the numbers with me! I did neglect implants on the hulks, probably because I've ignored them on my null hulks (which are actually skiffs, because I am lazy). But you're right that they would close the gap a bit more.


Thank you! Always happy to be corrected by someone who knows their stuff and is polite about it :)
Archeos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#507 - 2017-02-27 02:12:21 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Dear Fozzie;

No-one disputes that the PANIC module needs some reworking and balancing. Indestructible, long range, low fatigue Jump HICS are a problem, we're 100% in agreement on that. Simply making the PANIC module act like the carrier Network Sensor Array will 100% solve this problem (no use of EWAR modules when active).

However, your proposed changes go a lot, lot further than just addressing this one area of mutual concern. To be blunt, the proposed changes to Rorqual mining yield are both insanely heavy handed and completely unnecessary.

I would suggest there are several different changes you could make to address the 'oversupply' of some minerals (something only you seem to think is a problem).

The most obvious change would be to alter the respawning mechanism for Ore Anomalies in upgraded 0.0 systems. Currently, once you mine out a Colossal Ore Anomaly, a new one spawns in that system near instantly. Perhaps change Ore Anomalies to behave like Ice Belts where they respawn four hours after being mined out? Currently Trit prices are going down simply due to oversupply of Trit and a rather chronic UNDERSUPPLY of Mexallon making for a major bottleneck in production chains. If there was more Mexallon available, 0.0 miners wouldn't need to export their Trit/Pyreite surplus, which wouldn't upset the hisec miners with their CONCORD protection (and seriously, the only people who might be whinging about Rorqual mining yields are the hisec miners who are taking very, very little risk by comparison).

Have you actually run the numbers on what a combination of reduced raw yield coupled with faster cycle times will actually do to Rorqual mining yields? We all know that paper-DPS figures are a long way shy of actual applied DPS in combat. The same applies to paper mining yields. The extra travel time being added to Excavators will utterly kill off their ability to efficiently mine ore. If you cut Rorqual mining yield down to roughly 1.5-2 Hulks (that's on-paper yield, not actual in-belt yield which will be lower again), there will be no reason to ever use a Rorqual. In this instance, the preferred mining platform will once again be the Exhumer line of ships and the preferred Mining Booster will be the Porpoise. There will be literally no sane reason to ever undock in a Rorqual except to use it as obvious bait.

The reasoning you have used to justify nerfing Rorqual mining yield is spurious to say the least and you've been extremely self-contradictory about your motives for such a change. On the one hand, you claim a need to interfere in the EVE market because of falling mineral prices. In the same breath, you justify the exorbitant cost of Excavator Drones as a function of the market forces of supply and demand. Which is it? I predict that the changes you are proposing will lead to a complete collapse in demand for Excavator drones, leaving a great many people sitting on a pile of now-worthless drones that we paid north of ISK1b each for.

If you go down the path of swinging the nerf bat so quickly and with such reckless abandon, will there be some kind of compensation for those of us who built and trained into Rorquals?

Perhaps a one-off, one-time only, opt-in offer of reimbursing the Hull, Rig and Excavator Drone costs as well as reimbursing the SP spent training into Rorquals AND extracting and reimbursing the cost of the Skillbooks?

The Capital Industrial Ships skillbook is ISK500,000,000 and is required to fly exactly ONE ship. Given that Rorquals only recently became worthwhile to train into for many people and given just how quickly you feel it necessary to nerf it into uselessness, such a reimbursement is only fair.

And now for the ISK15,000,000,000 Question: As for myself, I'm in quite the quandary. My Rorqual is in a C4 wormhole, so I only get to use it when Bob decides to grant me an Ore site. So far, I've mined back enough Ore to nearly pay for two Excavator Drones. Do I sell the drones now and try to avoid the upcoming and entirely predictable price crash? Do I melt the Rorqual down and use the minerals for something useful? Do I extract the skills and put them back into something useful? Or do I wait and pray for some sort of sanity to prevail in Reykjavik?

I really do have to ask: did you not think some of these things through BEFORE you made the Rorqual changes last November? Surely some of the problems that have arisen should have been glaringly obvious from the outset.

Risk is supposed to equal Reward. You're removing all the Reward while keeping the Risk at the same level. This is not the way to balance something.


I was told that since EVE is a sanbox game, the game developers listen and take heed of the players opinions. But unfortunately it doesn't seem to be case when it comes to miners. They have no idea how to balance the game, and even if everyone will tell them that nerfing the rorqual so it will be earning 50% of what a carrier will be able to earn at the same time, is NOT the way to go, i am sure that in march we will see CCPL Fozzie implement the nerf.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#508 - 2017-02-27 02:17:06 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
I know significantly fewer industrialists currently doing the same. Even though some of them have quite a few accounts the balance here is still Rorqual-negative on the whole. This is currently reflected in the current price of Excavator drones, which has dropped enough in the last three day to almost completely cancel out the rise in prices over the last month.


the current price drop on Excavator Drones can be easily explained by two simple factors:
1: People aren't buying Excavators because the proposed changes will make them valueless if implemented (economists would call this "Falling Demand")
and
2: People are attempting to sell their excavators and recoup some of the non-trivial costs before the floor completely drops out of that market. (Economists would call this Increased Supply).

Essentially, what we're seeing with Excavator Drone prices is basic economics. Demand is dropping, because these drones are set to become useless compared to an Exhumer that costs 1/5th the price. Supply is rising due to people looking to offload an asset that is set to become worthless.

Supply > Demand = Falling Prices.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

Cade Windstalker
#509 - 2017-02-27 03:51:17 UTC
Archeos wrote:
I was told that since EVE is a sanbox game, the game developers listen and take heed of the players opinions. But unfortunately it doesn't seem to be case when it comes to miners. They have no idea how to balance the game, and even if everyone will tell them that nerfing the rorqual so it will be earning 50% of what a carrier will be able to earn at the same time, is NOT the way to go, i am sure that in march we will see CCPL Fozzie implement the nerf.


Having the developers listen is not the same thing as the devs doing what *you* personally want, or even what the majority of your little corner of the game wants. Having the devs listen means having them take in feedback, consider opinions, facts, and available options, and come to a decision.

It definitely does not mean that you are always going to be happy with what they've done or that your opinion is in the right.

Also, a little econ 101.

Carriers produce raw ISK. The only things that determine how much they make are the bounties on the rats they kill and how fast they can kill them.

Miners produce materials. Miners only make what those materials are worth, and thus their income and buying power exist relative to the total of the Eve economy since their work underpins the value of almost everything to one degree or another. Thus, if something is introduced which makes it very very easy to produce minerals then the value of minerals will drop and the income of miners will drop along with it.

It is literally impossible for CCP to buff your income in the form of minerals mined without it then dropping in the long term, especially if they introduce something that gets a lot more people mining, meaning they're all fighting for a piece of a now much larger pie but one that hasn't increased in value all that much.

Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
I know significantly fewer industrialists currently doing the same. Even though some of them have quite a few accounts the balance here is still Rorqual-negative on the whole. This is currently reflected in the current price of Excavator drones, which has dropped enough in the last three day to almost completely cancel out the rise in prices over the last month.


the current price drop on Excavator Drones can be easily explained by two simple factors:
1: People aren't buying Excavators because the proposed changes will make them valueless if implemented (economists would call this "Falling Demand")
and
2: People are attempting to sell their excavators and recoup some of the non-trivial costs before the floor completely drops out of that market. (Economists would call this Increased Supply).

Essentially, what we're seeing with Excavator Drone prices is basic economics. Demand is dropping, because these drones are set to become useless compared to an Exhumer that costs 1/5th the price. Supply is rising due to people looking to offload an asset that is set to become worthless.

Supply > Demand = Falling Prices.


Yes, that is in fact the economic underpinnings of what I'm saying, but it doesn't suggest at all that they're going to become "valueless", because post-changes a Rorqual is still going to mine several times what a Hulk does and if the Drones literally had a worth of 0 the Rorqual would be a no-brainer choice for mining.

It does suggest that people are moving away from using the Rorqual though, which is kind of the point of these changes. Adjusting the risk/reward curve for the ship so it's less attractive so people who never previously mined will stop wrecking the mineral market.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#510 - 2017-02-27 04:08:36 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Mephiztopheleze wrote:


the current price drop on Excavator Drones can be easily explained by two simple factors:
1: People aren't buying Excavators because the proposed changes will make them valueless if implemented (economists would call this "Falling Demand")
and
2: People are attempting to sell their excavators and recoup some of the non-trivial costs before the floor completely drops out of that market. (Economists would call this Increased Supply).

Essentially, what we're seeing with Excavator Drone prices is basic economics. Demand is dropping, because these drones are set to become useless compared to an Exhumer that costs 1/5th the price. Supply is rising due to people looking to offload an asset that is set to become worthless.

Supply > Demand = Falling Prices.


Yes, that is in fact the economic underpinnings of what I'm saying, but it doesn't suggest at all that they're going to become "valueless", because post-changes a Rorqual is still going to mine several times what a Hulk does and if the Drones literally had a worth of 0 the Rorqual would be a no-brainer choice for mining.

It does suggest that people are moving away from using the Rorqual though, which is kind of the point of these changes. Adjusting the risk/reward curve for the ship so it's less attractive so people who never previously mined will stop wrecking the mineral market.


I would very much like to see your math on how a Rorqual will mine 'several times what a Hulk does' after these proposed changes.

My own math seems to indicate anything from about a ~30-40% hit to current yield up to potentially around a ~75% hit. It will all come down to when you finish your Industrial Core cycle and how far away the next asteroid is. The reduced cycle time means that the drones will spend more time travelling. If you have *just* cycled back into siege when the 'roid depletes, your drones will have a significant travel time to the next rock for the whole five minute cycle, which will significantly reduce your effective yield over time.

We all know that paper-DPS figures can be extremely misleading when applied to actual combat scenarios. The same applies to paper mining yield figures when Drone Travel Time is a rather major factor (have you seen how slowly those things move?).

In any event, this is a case of CCP going too far, too fast. I've yet to hear any even vaguely economically rational argument from Fozzie or yourself as to WHY Rorqual mining yield is so much of a problem that it needs to be whacked with the Nerfhammer Of Thor.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

Grognard Commissar
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#511 - 2017-02-27 04:40:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Grognard Commissar
Quote:
Even on the off chance that you're correct and the long term result is still a lot of Rorquals we'll probably only see more nerfs if we're *only* seeing Rorquals and no mixed Rorqual Hulk fleets. Fozzie flat out stated that their goal here is for the Rorqual to be used for both mining and boosting, rather than just as a super-miner.

I think you are severely underestimating the min/max of miners...
Quote:
It is literally impossible for CCP to buff your income in the form of minerals mined without it then dropping in the long term, especially if they introduce something that gets a lot more people mining, meaning they're all fighting for a piece of a now much larger pie but one that hasn't increased in value all that much.

actually, they could fix the mineral distribution, making it so that you can actually use all the minerals you mine.
Aleverette
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#512 - 2017-02-27 05:00:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Aleverette
Now I have a question after all these buff/nerf charades EVE have been through.
What was the purpose of you buffing Rorqual? Were you trying to make it a powerful solo mining ship so players with only one or two accounts could be involved in industrial activities? Or just simply wanted to give current Rorqual pilots a new toy to play with?

If the answer is the second one, go ahead and change the number whatever you like.

But if the answer is the first one, then I sincerely suggest you should reconsider how to fit Rorqual into the universe instead of giving it a big ass invincibility and a set of gamebreaking drones. EVE is a complicated system (at least more complicated than most of other MMO) , thus, providing a new set of game mechanics in depth is necessary in order to increase gameplay variety. You rush too much.
Archeos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#513 - 2017-02-27 05:18:12 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:


Having the developers listen is not the same thing as the devs doing what *you* personally want, or even what the majority of your little corner of the game wants. Having the devs listen means having them take in feedback, consider opinions, facts, and available options, and come to a decision.

It definitely does not mean that you are always going to be happy with what they've done or that your opinion is in the right.

Also, a little econ 101.

Carriers produce raw ISK. The only things that determine how much they make are the bounties on the rats they kill and how fast they can kill them.

Miners produce materials. Miners only make what those materials are worth, and thus their income and buying power exist relative to the total of the Eve economy since their work underpins the value of almost everything to one degree or another. Thus, if something is introduced which makes it very very easy to produce minerals then the value of minerals will drop and the income of miners will drop along with it.

It is literally impossible for CCP to buff your income in the form of minerals mined without it then dropping in the long term, especially if they introduce something that gets a lot more people mining, meaning they're all fighting for a piece of a now much larger pie but one that hasn't increased in value all that much.

.


A little econ 101 for you too.

No one seems to be complaining about the mineral market crash and it won't bother anyone if it goes down a bit futher, it will happen with or without the nerf. The only thing that will change is that now people who want to mine will have to get additional plexed accounts to field more rorquals to make up for the lost money.

As for CCP being able to make the mineral market healthy and buff miner income - yes they can do it easily.
And it has already been suggested in this thread. Some of the better examples include :

1) Stopping ratts drop ammunition, that means that t1 ammo would only come from industrialists. And while at it, making the ammunition require more minerals to produce, would create a very nice sinkhole for the minerals, as ammunition is the most common used and discarded thing in eve, and the rise in price wouldn't hurt even a 1 day old newbee.

2) Making the pirate supers balanced so that their price wouldnt come from the blueprint, and their final cost wouldn't be that of a titan but maybe 2,5 x a normal super carrier. And if the increase in price would come from the price of minerals, it would be a very nice sinkhole.

3) Balancing the asteroid yield in null so that null miners wouldn't have to export the abundant pyrite and tritanium to high sec and ruin the highsec markets.

4) Rising the mineral cost of citadels, especially the astrahaus, its dirt cheap right now.

5) They can introduce mineral costs to literally any item that gets used a lot, like nanite paste or boost scripts, the possibilities are endless.

But the real point is that noone really is complaing about the mineral prices, the market will adapt. And cheap ships are a nice thing to have. The problem is that CCP is trying to make the rorqual a ship that will only appear as a booster, and everyone is trying to explain that untill it has the best yield out of all the mining ships all the die hard miners will still use them. This nerf wont change a thing for the 10-20 rorqual boxers.
Archeos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#514 - 2017-02-27 05:44:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Archeos
Oh yeah and lets not forget another thing.
The change to mining drones mine time from 90sec to 60sec is a huge boost for the orca.
Orca now which is sitting at around the yield of a boosted hulk will be able to mine 1,5x times as efficiently as a hulk, fielding a much bigger cargo hold, much more ehp, and being able to defend itself with drones. It costs only 2x times more than a hulk, doesnt have to be immobile like the rorqaul, doesnt field 1,5billion drones, and is anti gank proof. I promise you that everyone in highsec will be mining in orcas and porpoises after the change.

The only solution to replacing industrial command ships with laser mining ships is making a tier 3 mining ship that would be a semi capital ship like the orca, and have a yield between an orca and a rorqaul. Maybe giving it some kind of ability to anchor on a rorqual and send ore directly to the rorquals ore hold would be a nice thing. The progression tree for the industrial command ship is porpoise->orca->rorqual now, and the barge is barge->exhumer. Also the train for an exhumer is like 2x or more times the train to get into an orca. So why go the exhumer route when a hulk is the endgame for that skill plan ?
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#515 - 2017-02-27 06:20:40 UTC
Archeos wrote:
Oh yeah and lets not forget another thing.
The change to mining drones mine time from 90sec to 60sec is a huge boost for the orca.
Orca now which is sitting at around the yield of a boosted hulk will be able to mine 1,5x times as efficiently as a hulk, fielding a much bigger cargo hold, much more ehp, and being able to defend itself with drones. It costs only 2x times more than a hulk, doesnt have to be immobile like the rorqaul, doesnt field 1,5billion drones, and is anti gank proof. I promise you that everyone in highsec will be mining in orcas and porpoises after the change.

The only solution to replacing industrial command ships with laser mining ships is making a tier 3 mining ship that would be a semi capital ship like the orca, and have a yield between an orca and a rorqaul. Maybe giving it some kind of ability to anchor on a rorqual and send ore directly to the rorquals ore hold would be a nice thing. The progression tree for the industrial command ship is porpoise->orca->rorqual now, and the barge is barge->exhumer. Also the train for an exhumer is like 2x or more times the train to get into an orca. So why go the exhumer route when a hulk is the endgame for that skill plan ?


actually, the cycle reduction is a NERF to all drone mining ships as drones will now spend more time travelling and less time mining. it's a bigger nerf to the Rorq than it is to the Orca simply because the Orca doesn't lock itself in place for five minutes at a time.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

Mama Baer
The Tiny Co.
#516 - 2017-02-27 07:51:57 UTC
Why not spawn more NPC mining fleets and reduce the supply in certain areas?
apollo429
Colonial Industries
Reckless Contingency.
#517 - 2017-02-27 07:54:19 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Now for some Q&A from the thread so far:
.

The current prices are a symptom of extremely high demand. Once the market cools down a bit we'll definitely re-evaluate and make changes to the components as needed. The price of Excavators is set by the player market and will only stay at whatever level people consider worth paying. If player's evaluation of how much they're worth changes, the price will change.



So your completely OK with players setting the prices for the drones and the materials to build the drone but are not OK with players setting the market for minerals. Also minerals are not the go to for prices anymore. Its all about compressed ore remember? Yes minerals can set the price for compressed ore but players have the ability to effect both markets. That's something you do not seem to want to allow anymore. Let us crash OUR market. Let us fix our market, why don't you focusnob giving us reasons to go to war with each other like you are supposed to be doing fozzie
Lord Kaho
Banished Braindead Zombies
Pandemic Horde
#518 - 2017-02-27 08:50:06 UTC
This kind of change... well.. I dont know.
Lower income with a CAPITAL Industrial Ship. Invested much ISK (for a "normal" Player 11bill is alot) to get nerfed a CAPITAL Ship down...

So ill Sell it and go back to Barges....

Panic Modul can only be activated when Ore is active? Okay....
But why should a CAPITAL INDUSTRIAL Ship be able to Fit a Entosing Modul, go in Core and not be effected from ECM while doing PVP / SOV Warfare?

You should Decress the Ships DPS / PVP ability...

Industrial Ship: Should be able to do... Industrial Jobs? CAPITAL s
INDUSTRIAL Ship: Should not be able to do PVP / SOV Warfare.

We will see how the market brokes.
Payed much money for that damn BPO. xD



Orli1983
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#519 - 2017-02-27 09:23:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Orli1983
CCP the great magician show :


CCP takes sh..t (rorq beforre buff) and CCP change this sh..t it into gold (rorq after buff)..

then after returning home i have pockets full of sh..t.... bravoo
Coelomate Tian
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#520 - 2017-02-27 13:37:18 UTC
Archeos wrote:
Oh yeah and lets not forget another thing.
The change to mining drones mine time from 90sec to 60sec is a huge boost for the orca.
Orca now which is sitting at around the yield of a boosted hulk will be able to mine 1,5x times as efficiently as a hulk, fielding a much bigger cargo hold, much more ehp, and being able to defend itself with drones. It costs only 2x times more than a hulk, doesnt have to be immobile like the rorqaul, doesnt field 1,5billion drones, and is anti gank proof. I promise you that everyone in highsec will be mining in orcas and porpoises after the change.

The only solution to replacing industrial command ships with laser mining ships is making a tier 3 mining ship that would be a semi capital ship like the orca, and have a yield between an orca and a rorqaul. Maybe giving it some kind of ability to anchor on a rorqual and send ore directly to the rorquals ore hold would be a nice thing. The progression tree for the industrial command ship is porpoise->orca->rorqual now, and the barge is barge->exhumer. Also the train for an exhumer is like 2x or more times the train to get into an orca. So why go the exhumer route when a hulk is the endgame for that skill plan ?


Nope. The change is only to Excavator mining drones, not all mining drones. The Orca cannot use Excavator mining drones - it doesn't have a large enough drone bay.