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[March] Mobile Warp Disruptor changes

First post First post First post
Author
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#161 - 2017-02-22 15:04:26 UTC
Agreed that the bubble lifetime is far too high. Reduce significantly.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Cable Uta
Expressed Choreography
#162 - 2017-02-22 15:04:45 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:

4) WH with crit connections farming. Risk : none (nobody can bring enough firepower). Reward: stupid high.
...the list goes on...
"The greater the reward, the greater should be the risk." - there should be either no exceptions or no such rule.


Cause there is totally 0 risk of a group like say HK or the old BU or other WH entities rolling into you and raping the **** out of you, OR actually getting a fight!

And its totally op isk in WH space, oh wait didn't CCP nerf that recently?

Last id like for you to continue the list that "goes on".

There is risk with all types of ratting but the risk need to be proportionate with the income it generates, and currently Nullsec is scewed towards high isk & practicly 0 risk.

This change is a good please don't back down ccp <3
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#163 - 2017-02-22 15:06:17 UTC
James Zealot wrote:
I don't think it's fair to say that the entire cost of a PLEX is calculated into this. If all you have that alt for is this, then you're doing eve wrong. Also, unless those bubbles get popped, all you have to do is maintain them. I think I read earlier, you can scoop them, then redeploy them? I think it's all about cleaning space up a bit, making people pay more attention to the bubbles they are placing and it adds more content.


It's still a grand figure closing on 11 digits even without plex. For ONE constellation.
It takes one bubble camping nolifer and you cannot maintain them anymore.
If you miss a timer you have to put every 2 days, they are lost.

I'm ok with paying attention to my bubbles, but this amount of attention is more than any other structure in eve currently requires. Timers need to be an order of magnitude longer at least.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#164 - 2017-02-22 15:07:41 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
James Zealot wrote:
I don't think it's fair to say that the entire cost of a PLEX is calculated into this. If all you have that alt for is this, then you're doing eve wrong. Also, unless those bubbles get popped, all you have to do is maintain them. I think I read earlier, you can scoop them, then redeploy them? I think it's all about cleaning space up a bit, making people pay more attention to the bubbles they are placing and it adds more content.


It's still a grand figure closing on 11 digits even without plex. For ONE constellation.
It takes one bubble camping nolifer and you cannot maintain them anymore.
If you miss a timer you have to put every 2 days, they are lost.

I'm ok with paying attention to my bubbles, but this amount of attention is more than any other structure in eve currently requires. Timers need to be an order of magnitude longer at least.


Shoot the "bubble camping no-lifer." Or don't use bubbles if they're too much work.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#165 - 2017-02-22 15:07:57 UTC
This is only marginally relevant, but I just have to address this:

Orca Platypus wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Your ratting ship/s have to dock up because they can't kill a curious thrasher?

In current game balance, no, pvp fits have tremendously overwhelming advantage.
Check capqu's ganking videos how he kills multiple pve tengus with his Thrasher, and they aren't even shitfit, it's just balance is that bad.

If a PvE Tengu gets killed by a lone PvP Thrasher, then it is pretty much shitfit by definition.

ProTip: do PvE content in PvP-fit ships whenever possible.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

James Zealot
BENEVOLENC3
Evictus.
#166 - 2017-02-22 15:09:20 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
James Zealot wrote:
I don't think it's fair to say that the entire cost of a PLEX is calculated into this. If all you have that alt for is this, then you're doing eve wrong. Also, unless those bubbles get popped, all you have to do is maintain them. I think I read earlier, you can scoop them, then redeploy them? I think it's all about cleaning space up a bit, making people pay more attention to the bubbles they are placing and it adds more content.


It's still a grand figure closing on 11 digits even without plex. For ONE constellation.
It takes one bubble camping nolifer and you cannot maintain them anymore.
If you miss a timer you have to put every 2 days, they are lost.

I'm ok with paying attention to my bubbles, but this amount of attention is more than any other structure in eve currently requires. Timers need to be an order of magnitude longer at least.


I can agree with that. I think that's a reason they are starting out with the time frames they are. Things just like that. So we'll have to see what the outcome is after they put this into play. I don't think anyone has the answer right now. Just have to do the trial and error. I think CCP is approaching this correctly.
Trajan Unknown
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#167 - 2017-02-22 15:11:51 UTC
Less decay time please is the first thing was the first reaction followed by a sceptical view when I read about the "conservative decay times." Seems the carebears in zero-zero were rustled hard and put much lobby work into higher decay times.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#168 - 2017-02-22 15:14:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Orca Platypus
Bronson Hughes wrote:
If a PvE Tengu gets killed by a lone PvP Thrasher, then it is pretty much shitfit by definition.

Or **** game balance. Which is the case for eve.

Bronson Hughes wrote:
ProTip: do PvE content in PvP-fit ships whenever possible.

Last time I dared the moron who said it to provide a fitting capable of such clearly impossible deed, I received a phoon fit with application bad enough to miss broadside of a titan(some exaggeration here), tank and dps of an alpha clone fit cruiser (no exaggeration here), and the only "pvp" aspect to it was its ability to jam the ganker with modules and drones, and escape.

Either you never ratted yourself, or think that 6 million ticks the aforementioned abomination produced is "still ratting".
DS9
Perkone
Caldari State
#169 - 2017-02-22 15:15:33 UTC  |  Edited by: DS9
Orca Platypus wrote:

This is a wonderful idea. Let's apply it to:
1) Suicide ganking. Risk : none. Reward: Bounties, Loot, Salvage. Risk/Reward = 0/∞ paradox.
2) Low/null ganking. Risk : insured ship (none). Reward: Bounties, Loot, sometimes Salvage. Risk/Reward = 0/∞ paradox.
3) FW farming. Risk: bomber, stabbed plex ship, w/e. Reward: More than ratting.
4) WH with crit connections farming. Risk : none (nobody can bring enough firepower). Reward: stupid high.
...the list goes on...
"The greater the reward, the greater should be the risk." - there should be either no exceptions or no such rule.


Agree, all really rewarding activities should be risky and demand the player to be active, and I think CCP is constantly making changes in that direction. Step by step. I also think you don't really understand the isk/hour and risk associated with those 4 activities that you mentioned.

Orca Platypus wrote:

1 week max. 2 weeks bubbles are basically inaccessible, and their cost with killmails would be a ****** magnet, so they cannot be used.
That's "almost nothing" for 2 days. Now since you're going to lose all your bubbles every 2 days, multiply 25 large bubbles (that is after downsizing it to "adapt to new changes", minimal for 1 constellation) by 15 to get a monthly cost and add 1 hour/day (2 hours every 2 days) of not making ISK to place them. Also plex to do it in neutral alt, otherwise the intel cost would reach stupid values. How much are we at? 1 bil per month plex, plus 250 million 25 large bubbles every 2 days (it only takes one camper to not let you bring your ship to redeploy them) - overall cost of 4.75 billion ISK per month, after downsizing your bubble network. With your proposal of 24 hours, the cost is at 8.5 billion ISK per month. Clearly you cannot into math.


You don't really need a neutral alt. And if you have that alt you just extract sp from it and make 1,5b a month, buy a plex and keep the rest.

I'd be suprised if 20% of the bubbles in a constellation are destroyed every 2 days, and the remaining 20 ones can be picked up and redeployed. It takes the same time as placing new ones. So you don't need to buy them all over again.

But even assuming your numbers and math are correct, then it's 8,5 bil a month for a constellation. So 30 players? That's 283 mil per player, per month. That's really a lot... Roll And with the real numbers it's more like 20 mil per player per month.
Mr Floydy
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#170 - 2017-02-22 15:21:07 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:

1 week max. 2 weeks bubbles are basically inaccessible, and their cost with killmails would be a ****** magnet, so they cannot be used.
That's "almost nothing" for 2 days. Now since you're going to lose all your bubbles every 2 days, multiply 25 large bubbles (that is after downsizing it to "adapt to new changes", minimal for 1 constellation) by 15 to get a monthly cost and add 1 hour/day (2 hours every 2 days) of not making ISK to place them. Also plex to do it in neutral alt, otherwise the intel cost would reach stupid values. How much are we at? 1 bil per month plex, plus 250 million 25 large bubbles every 2 days (it only takes one camper to not let you bring your ship to redeploy them) - overall cost of 4.75 billion ISK per month, after downsizing your bubble network. With your proposal of 24 hours, the cost is at 8.5 billion ISK per month. Clearly you cannot into math.


I guess the workaround to this would be to not put 10s of bubbles all over the place and maybe just leave a couple on gates in the system you are actually ratting in? But I guess that would be a crazy suggestion.
Did you know you can sit aligned in your carrier to a station, and then hit warp when a scary person appears in local? Nothing changes with or without bubbles there. Either way you can still warp off grid long before someone will be on top of you from a gate unless you are afk/bad.

Didn't you mention you are just 1 guy with one system earlier in this thread, how on earth can you justify that many bubbles?


Re: PvEing in PvP ships. There are pros and cons of this. If you do it you'll be slower at completing sites, but safer if you get attacked. Compare to using dedicated PvE ships, you are vulnerable to players but good at the PvE. It's an entirely intentional compromise. Don't complain that your PvE ship can't PvP and vice versa.
DS9
Perkone
Caldari State
#171 - 2017-02-22 15:23:13 UTC
Guys, looking at this topic, I have a strange feeling that Orca Platypus is just some prankster trolling all of us. Cause no one can be this clueless.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#172 - 2017-02-22 15:29:55 UTC
DS9 wrote:
Agree, all really rewarding activities should be risky and demand the player to be active, and I think CCP is constantly making changes in that direction. Step by step. I also think you don't really understand the isk/hour and risk associated with those 4 activities that you mentioned.

Disagree that CCP is going right direction with it, they just nerf the profitability out of everything so risk is reduced by nobody bothering to do it.
Also I took the lower bound of those activities so it's even more skewed.

DS9 wrote:
You don't really need a neutral alt. And if you have that alt you just extract sp from it and make 1,5b a month, buy a plex and keep the rest.

I used to wonder how people could suck at math that badly. Now I know it's just because people are lazy and stupid.
SP farms went under profit line a few months ago. Remember, extractors are not free, and the difference between injectors and extractors no longer covers PLEX price.

DS9 wrote:
I'd be suprised if 20% of the bubbles in a constellation are destroyed every 2 days, and the remaining 20 ones can be picked up and redeployed. It takes the same time as placing new ones. So you don't need to buy them all over again.

They will get a visible timer, so they will get camped and stolen a lot. Or just shot for no risk kb padding.

DS9 wrote:
But even assuming your numbers and math are correct, then it's 8,5 bil a month for a constellation. So 30 players? That's 283 mil per player, per month. That's really a lot... Roll And with the real numbers it's more like 20 mil per player per month.

Translating it into manhours, it's close to 100 every month to cover the cost and 60 to place/redeploy. if you think demanding 160 manhours per constellation is OK, I must question your social status.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#173 - 2017-02-22 15:38:23 UTC
Mr Floydy wrote:
I guess the workaround to this would be to not put 10s of bubbles all over the place and maybe just leave a couple on gates in the system you are actually ratting in? But I guess that would be a crazy suggestion.

25 large bubbles is ONE large bubble on each side of each gate in constellation, plus a few on special locations. Learn2count before going crazy suggestions maybe?

Mr Floydy wrote:
Did you know you can sit aligned in your carrier to a station, and then hit warp when a scary person appears in local? Nothing changes with or without bubbles there. Either way you can still warp off grid long before someone will be on top of you from a gate unless you are afk/bad.

In this scenario, bubble is the difference between life and sabre-on-station certain death. I guess you're an idiot if you warp carrier to station, and not to POS.

Mr Floydy wrote:
Didn't you mention you are just 1 guy with one system earlier in this thread, how on earth can you justify that many bubbles?

It's just my imagination, or the only ones pushing for less timer are only people with Reading Comprehension and Counting to Five skillbooks not even injected? See learn2count point above.


Mr Floydy wrote:
Re: PvEing in PvP ships. There are pros and cons of this. If you do it you'll be slower at completing sites, but safer if you get attacked. Compare to using dedicated PvE ships, you are vulnerable to players but good at the PvE. It's an entirely intentional compromise. Don't complain that your PvE ship can't PvP and vice versa.

There are no pros. Ratting in pvp ship is either completely impossible (you're killed by rats since you are buffer or capbooster tanked), or not ratting at all (for 6 mil ISK ticks you're making more doing literally anything else).
Mr Floydy
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#174 - 2017-02-22 15:44:43 UTC
You think people are going to regularly camp around watching a timer to steal/kill a bubble worth a couple of million isk instead of looking for people to shoot? I guess it is possible but it'll be a minority of people doing that. Personally I'd much rather come and shoot your spaceship :)

Re-read my post btw. You'll see I'm suggesting using a couple of bubbles in just one system rather than the entire constellation. You might save some precious isk.
If you warp when someone appears in local, you will land where you want to land - a Sabre isn't going to do anything... Nothing wrong with warping a carrier to a station you can dock up if you want to be safe, POS works fine too if you have one to hand.
You're so bad it's hilarious. I look forward to your next post :)
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#175 - 2017-02-22 15:52:44 UTC
Mr Floydy wrote:
You think people are going to regularly camp around watching a timer to steal/kill a bubble worth a couple of million isk instead of looking for people to shoot? I guess it is possible but it'll be a minority of people doing that. Personally I'd much rather come and shoot your spaceship :)

It's a fact people do that. I saw people stick around for mobile depots reinforce timer hoping to get those couple million ISK inside it (with a chance it all blows up and nothing drops), there is nothing suggesting they won't wait for a guaranteed bubble steal.
And oh, roamers run like scared chicken from everything resembling a pvp fleet. Admit you're roaming for easy kills only, you would gladly kill someone's afk pod worth 10k ISK, so clearly people who do that would stick around to kill/steal a single large bubble worth 10 million ISK.

Mr Floydy wrote:
Re-read my post btw. You'll see I'm suggesting using a couple of bubbles in just one system rather than the entire constellation. You might save some precious isk.

Only works for entities that fit into one system. Not my case.

Mr Floydy wrote:
If you warp when someone appears in local, you will land where you want to land - a Sabre isn't going to do anything... Nothing wrong with warping a carrier to a station you can dock up if you want to be safe, POS works fine too if you have one to hand.

Carriers do not land in dockable range unless you have an insta-dock bookmark. If you don't have one or missed and actually warped to station, you're bubbled, bumped, and dead. I see how spreading this nonsense works in your favor, but no thanks.

Mr Floydy wrote:
You're so bad it's hilarious. I look forward to your next post :)

If the only thing idiots can do to your post is to call names on you, you are right. Thanks for confirming.
Mr Floydy
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#176 - 2017-02-22 15:57:53 UTC
Plenty of roamers engage organised fleets, if they are in suitable ships to pick off targets and split things up. You weren't expecting a group of a few people in a skirmish fleets to stick around to fight a big ball of T3s with 5+ logi ships were you? It's already clear you like things being hugely stacked in your favour before you undock.

if you are part of an entity that needs to have multiple systems locked down an secure, why aren't you sharing the load of securing it? You're just creating yourself work to make a point when if you are in an alliance/corp that controls a constellation you should have more than enough players to share this task out between them....

As for carriers? Make yourself a insta dock bookmark then? You are entirely missing that point, you can warp out from your site before you are tackled if aligned. Bubbles make no difference to this. You could also jump to a cyno... Stop putting all your faith in bubbles, they're not going to help you when a wormhole corp rolls into you.
Cade Windstalker
#177 - 2017-02-22 16:10:00 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Querns wrote:
Couple of questions.
1) If a bubble's lifetime expires, does it generate a killmail?
I'm pretty sure it won't, due to the method of destruction used by the decay system.


Can you make it such that bubbles won't decay if they currently have a combat timer or something equivalent? I know it's a bit of a niche case but it would kinda suck to be clearing a Faction bubble and have it pop halfway through hull from time and not get a kill mail for all that expended ammo/cap/time/F1 presses.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#178 - 2017-02-22 16:14:17 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
Either you never ratted yourself, or think that 6 million ticks the aforementioned abomination produced is "still ratting".

Low tick rates are better than the zero tick rates you get when you dock up your T3 in fear of a Thrasher, or paying to replace a high-tick T3 because you shitfit it.

Your call.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#179 - 2017-02-22 16:14:58 UTC
James Zealot wrote:
Mai Khumm wrote:
Quote:


Two days for all T1 bubbles
One week for all T2 bubbles
Two weeks for all Syndicate bubbles



It should be...

- 12 hours for all T1 bubbles
- 24 hours for all T2 bubbles
- 48 hours for all Faction


As it stands right now, the amount of ISK per hour against the cost of replacing bubbles is way off! Especially when you can just scoop them and put them down again to reset the timers...and hell, this IS Nullsec we're talking about here! They'll have bots running around replacing those!

Change the HP so it's lowered with a reinforcement timer, but the bubble is off during said reinforcement timer. Make the bubbles follow structure anchoring ranges too!


There you go, reinforcement timer might not be a bad idea. I do agree though, they'll have bots for that lol. Should just start saying "they have a bot for that." for everything.


From my time in Nullsec, yeah, botters everywhere to do boring mundane things. Usually (large) Nullsec Groups have certain systems "restricted" from normal members, with rules in place where if you enter said system you get blacklisted. It's very easy to see what systems they are!
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#180 - 2017-02-22 16:16:10 UTC
Mr Floydy wrote:
Plenty of roamers engage organised fleets, if they are in suitable ships to pick off targets and split things up. You weren't expecting a group of a few people in a skirmish fleets to stick around to fight a big ball of T3s with 5+ logi ships were you? It's already clear you like things being hugely stacked in your favour before you undock.

It's not me, it's you who like the odds.
It's just one T3 on undock and you are already scared imagining the latter.

Mr Floydy wrote:
if you are part of an entity that needs to have multiple systems locked down an secure, why aren't you sharing the load of securing it? You're just creating yourself work to make a point when if you are in an alliance/corp that controls a constellation you should have more than enough players to share this task out between them....

Sharing the task does not decrease the total manhours and total cost. It even increases it slightly due to diminishing returns.

Mr Floydy wrote:
As for carriers? Make yourself a insta dock bookmark then? You are entirely missing that point, you can warp out from your site before you are tackled if aligned. Bubbles make no difference to this. You could also jump to a cyno... Stop putting all your faith in bubbles, they're not going to help you when a wormhole corp rolls into you.

Bubbles make a huge difference, they stall Sabre for extra 4 seconds you need to realize it's not one of yours, take control from fighters back to your carrier, find the required bookmark in right click menu and click it. They also delay the following fleet, making sure you have time to form, only the most extremely organized groups can form in under 5 minutes, and roamers are chickens and probably won't stick if there are more enemies than half their fleet size, so you need to ping for reinforcements to log in also. Overall this is extremely risk-free for roamers and bubbles are essential part of making this manageable.

And if you have rorquals, you better have bubbles at least 5 jumps out, or they're dead, fuk CCP.