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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Kahz Niverrah
Distinguished Johnsons
#1741 - 2012-01-19 13:00:47 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
People stop your paranoia plz, no one serious wants to have pulse range or AC's range and more dmg, we (the serious ones if you want it) ask enough range and dmg at med fight range witch is 30/35km max, just enough to fear the crap out of meta gamers with faction points witch only pleasure is like self sex, pointing you at long range (faction point 30km) where you can do nothing at all and slowly kill you.

WIth Null's current 1.25 modifier, a Neutron Mega already does nearly identical dps to a Scorch Abaddon in the 30-35km range. WIth the 1.4 modifier, it will do much more damage. So it sounds like you've gotten your wish?

I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I post with my main.
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1742 - 2012-01-19 14:40:12 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
People who think the "Top 20" list is meaningful make me happy. If it were not for the hordes of people who fail to take an applied statistics course during thier lifetimes, I would not have a job irl.

ty :hugs:


Statistics and people masturbating their brains with are useless to humanity, they're the first ones to hide underground when thing go wrong, they can barely survive if their car engine is broken in the middle of no where ...

Now, people using those with good intentions and giving humanity tools to become better, those actually have some nobel prices. Everything else is just cave people trying to dominate their neighbor with words a new V12 and tons of crap their future grave doesn't care at all...neither I.

If only painful/slow deadly hills were intelligent and could choose their target...I'd like to be the one that liquefies their victim from the inside in a horrible pain Lol

Halala...



until a certain point its quit funny how people dream up the doomsday and how they become the most important and resourcful survivors and heros of the day, recue a woman and seed the earth with human lifestock again Smile

but it looses the funny factor when those people not only feel the urge to share it with the whole world but actually do it Big smile
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1743 - 2012-01-19 16:18:55 UTC
Kahz Niverrah wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
People stop your paranoia plz, no one serious wants to have pulse range or AC's range and more dmg, we (the serious ones if you want it) ask enough range and dmg at med fight range witch is 30/35km max, just enough to fear the crap out of meta gamers with faction points witch only pleasure is like self sex, pointing you at long range (faction point 30km) where you can do nothing at all and slowly kill you.

WIth Null's current 1.25 modifier, a Neutron Mega already does nearly identical dps to a Scorch Abaddon in the 30-35km range. WIth the 1.4 modifier, it will do much more damage. So it sounds like you've gotten your wish?



the only ships it makes a difference on are ones with range bonus for the ships... problem is thats just one for gal and a few for caldari... give the ships better bonus and you will see me stop bitching...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Dare Devel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1744 - 2012-01-19 22:18:33 UTC
Abbadon gets a range(optimal + falloff) of 70+ km with Mega Pulse Laser II using Scorch and 2x Tracking Computer (loaded with Optimal Range script)

A megathron manages to reach 47km range(optimal + falloff) with the same fit using NULL L after applying 1.4 multipliers

A rokh manages to reach 57km range(optimal + falloff) with the same fit using NULL L after applying 1.4 multipliers

There is no comparison here.

Buffing NULL is a fail solution to bring Blasters into large fleet fights.
We always needed a buff to the base gun range Optimal and Falloff for large and medium blaster turret.
Instead we got tracking bonus/a paltry damage bonus/ammo volume reduction/fitting requirement reduction which
does nothing to address the main problem that is RANGE.
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1745 - 2012-01-19 23:34:37 UTC  |  Edited by: tEcHnOkRaT
http://www.fanpop.com/spots/the-simpsons/images/7414384/title/old-man-yells-cloud-photo

10% more dps
compared to 200% - 300% less range
is a fail at balancing blasters

and yes rails have also slightly more dps on paper but the platforms that carry it and the dealt damage type
make it dissapear as most ships have a high kin-thermal resistance
and if u fit them for a specific range they deal less dps then there counterparts in the same range group

but yeah on paper they are perfectly fine as long as u do not consider everything else that surrounds it
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#1746 - 2012-01-20 11:23:11 UTC
You know, after all these pages the I believe the biggest problem with rails and blasters stems from CCP's initial decision to give the same weapon systems to 2 different races with different bonus regimes. If you increase range to make gal work, for example, then the Cal ships become too powerful; Change the tracking and the reverse happens with Gal becoming too powerful. Doesn't matter what you change, one side or the other will be too strong or too weak accordingly. I think that CCP would have to fundamentally break this link between the weapons and the 2 races bonus structure or make both the same to allow balancing to be truly effective, but I honestly can't see that happen. I'm becoming resigned to treating rails as useless and blasters as niche.
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1747 - 2012-01-20 11:29:45 UTC
and i dont even wont to talk about caldari hybrid platforms cuz the whole concept of them is broken
and everyone knows what i mean with that
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1748 - 2012-01-20 11:35:21 UTC
Nikuno wrote:
You know, after all these pages the I believe the biggest problem with rails and blasters stems from CCP's initial decision to give the same weapon systems to 2 different races with different bonus regimes. If you increase range to make gal work, for example, then the Cal ships become too powerful; Change the tracking and the reverse happens with Gal becoming too powerful. Doesn't matter what you change, one side or the other will be too strong or too weak accordingly. I think that CCP would have to fundamentally break this link between the weapons and the 2 races bonus structure or make both the same to allow balancing to be truly effective, but I honestly can't see that happen. I'm becoming resigned to treating rails as useless and blasters as niche.


or ccp could refink how they give bonuses to ships
what i see now is always 5% or 10% steps
how about giving bonuses like 6,3827% or 13,11% something like that if its needed to give a fair fighting chance for every race
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1749 - 2012-01-20 12:31:54 UTC
Kahz Niverrah wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
People stop your paranoia plz, no one serious wants to have pulse range or AC's range and more dmg, we (the serious ones if you want it) ask enough range and dmg at med fight range witch is 30/35km max, just enough to fear the crap out of meta gamers with faction points witch only pleasure is like self sex, pointing you at long range (faction point 30km) where you can do nothing at all and slowly kill you.

WIth Null's current 1.25 modifier, a Neutron Mega already does nearly identical dps to a Scorch Abaddon in the 30-35km range. WIth the 1.4 modifier, it will do much more damage. So it sounds like you've gotten your wish?


Well unless you have trained your skills at lvl 7 mines with lvl5 and 0 TE is barely 26km.

From this point all the rest of your post is...Crap.

Try again.
Kahz Niverrah
Distinguished Johnsons
#1750 - 2012-01-20 12:44:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahz Niverrah
Tanya Powers wrote:
Well unless you have trained your skills at lvl 7 mines with lvl5 and 0 TE is barely 26km.

You can't compare blasters without any TE to Hellcat Abaddons that use 2 TCs. With 2 TCs, Neutron Megas loaded with null have a range of 15+26. At 30km, that means they're putting down 806 dps with 2 mag stabs. That's way more DPS then a Hellcat at that range, with superior tracking and less cap issues, and that's with Tranquility's current 1.25 null range mod. With the 1.4 range mod, it will be much more. Blaster cannons in the 30km range will be deadly with the 1.4 range mod.

I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I post with my main.
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1751 - 2012-01-20 13:58:05 UTC
Kahz Niverrah wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Well unless you have trained your skills at lvl 7 mines with lvl5 and 0 TE is barely 26km.

You can't compare blasters without any TE to Hellcat Abaddons that use 2 TCs. With 2 TCs, Neutron Megas loaded with null have a range of 15+26. At 30km, that means they're putting down 806 dps with 2 mag stabs. That's way more DPS then a Hellcat at that range, with superior tracking and less cap issues, and that's with Tranquility's current 1.25 null range mod. With the 1.4 range mod, it will be much more. Blaster cannons in the 30km range will be deadly with the 1.4 range mod.


no they wont
Kahz Niverrah
Distinguished Johnsons
#1752 - 2012-01-20 14:25:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahz Niverrah
tEcHnOkRaT wrote:
no they wont

I liked the part where you used facts to support your argument. Better you don't, actually, or else someone may call you an EFT warrior.

I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I post with my main.
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1753 - 2012-01-20 15:25:30 UTC  |  Edited by: tEcHnOkRaT
im one of those weirdoes who dont really care what others might think of me Straight

and its kinda like hitting a wall couse everything been already said so u just have to reapeat it time after time after time

until it sounds as normal as a cup coffe in the morning Smile
Dare Devel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1754 - 2012-01-20 16:12:29 UTC
Kahz Niverrah wrote:
tEcHnOkRaT wrote:
no they wont

I liked the part where you used facts to support your argument. Better you don't, actually, or else someone may call you an EFT warrior.


I am a noob but I will try to support tEcHnOkRaT argument with my silly reasons.

Hybrid Blaster Platform:
1) Ideal Situation: Enemy ship comes within 30km of range and the large neutrons can wtfbbq the target(s) given that they are all tackled etc. This is typically true where you are in a blaster boat and you are fighting NPCs that do close range combat.
2) Real Situation: Enemy ships see a blaster boat fleet. They are telling each other "Hey today is our lucky day ! Just maintain 50km range from those ships and we are fine. If the blaster boat switch on their MWD so do you." In this scenario the blaster boat pilot tries to pull out but may not be successfull because they have commited themselves and have got tackled (for example: bubbled).

Now in place of the unfortunate blaster boat put a fleet of amaar battleships with mega pulses. They have great tank/ No problem with short range/ and no problem with long range. Because of their range capabilities they do not need to move fast and can dedicate more mods to create a heavy tank along with superb DPS. Insta ammo switch and also get cap bonuses.

If I were to pick a winning side it would be lasors. What do you think?
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1755 - 2012-01-20 18:29:55 UTC  |  Edited by: tEcHnOkRaT
im mostly concernd about battleships cuz they need most fixing
cruiser hulls are less disatdvantaged but still behind other races

and a gleam abadon is superior to a null megathron in any way possible even with the 1,4 null buff
and no one is even mentioning the hyperion cuz the repair bonus is meh Big smile worst bonus u can give to a ship
people are even trying in some situations rather to shield tank a hyperion even with the armor repair bonus Evil

and to make the dominix usefull they would need to increase the drone damage modificator from 10% to something like 13% - 15% per level and give sentrys the abblity to follow users ship

so yeah galente and caldari have worst battleships in game

what i desire is a complete review of all ships and all races but it wont happen
cuz as i see the working morale with a slight change here and a slight change there afterwords buffing somehting that is already almost OP wont bring anything usefull in the near future
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1756 - 2012-01-20 20:05:05 UTC
tEcHnOkRaT wrote:

what i desire is a complete review of all ships and all races but it wont happen
cuz as i see the working morale with a slight change here and a slight change there afterwords buffing somehting that is already almost OP wont bring anything usefull in the near future


this is what ccp should do
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1757 - 2012-01-20 20:52:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Hamox
Kahz Niverrah wrote:
[quote=Tanya Powers]... Blaster cannons in the 30km range will be deadly with the 1.4 range mod.


Thats the reason why I say they need to fix small, medium and large seperately.
If they only do overall changes to tracking or ammo there will always be the problem that for example:
1. Increase range until medium hybrids are fine and small hybrids will be too strong.
2. Decrease range until small are fine but then mediums will be crap again and a Cane will Kite every Gal Cruiser easily without any chance for the Gal to hit the Cane...
3. Now if large have too much range lets decrease Ammo range again and crap mediums even more?

Why not look at small, fix them, then look at medium, fix them and then take a look at large?

What CPP does seems like put a randomly choosen number and change it. First tracking, then cap usage, then change of ammo size, then Null and Void and whats next? Ammo storage or Falloff? Doesn't matter becouse if you fix one you will screw the other...

Fix them seperately together with the hulls.
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1758 - 2012-01-20 21:02:30 UTC  |  Edited by: tEcHnOkRaT
Hamox wrote:
Kahz Niverrah wrote:
[quote=Tanya Powers]... Blaster cannons in the 30km range will be deadly with the 1.4 range mod.


Thats the reason why I say they need to fix small, medium and large seperately.
If they only do overall changes to tracking or ammo there will always be the problem that for example:
1. Increase range until medium hybrids are fine and small hybrids will be too strong.
2. Decrease range until small are fine but then mediums will be crap again and a Cane will Kite every Gal Cruiser easily without any chance for the Gal to hit the Cane...
3. Now if large have too much range lets decrease Ammo range again and crap mediums even more?

Why not look at small, fix them, then look at medium, fix them and then take a look at large?

What CPP does seems like put a randomly choosen number and change it. First tracking, then cap usage, then change of ammo size, then Null and Void and whats next? Ammo storage or Falloff? Doesn't matter becouse if you fix one you will screw the other...

Fix them seperately together with the hulls.


compared to amar and minmatar the 1,4 null buf is like a drop on a hot stone it changes nothing
min/amar have more damage and range with there short range guns then u do with null 1,40
(as stated before it changes nothing for the battleships/cruisers)

unless u manage to go into void range there is no point talking about the null buff
and thats the whole reson we are here cuz woid is out of range and nothing has been done to improve it
10m/s speed increase is in my opinion nothing
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1759 - 2012-01-20 22:32:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Magosian
Good things:
  • This thread is only 2-3 months old and already we are seeing changes made to hybrids to make them more viable. Frankly, this kind of pace is reassuring and I'm very glad this thread even exists. Personally, Null changes are a leap forward for hybrids as a whole, and this single change SHOULD be enough to prevent a Gallente ship from being beat up like a senior citizen in a wheelchair. Honestly, that's great.

    • BAD THINGS:
  • There has been no recent communication from CCP in this thread. The aforementioned Null changes have made it to SiSi, and while these changes look promising, there was no dev-to-player discussion about it at all. In fact, there has been NO discussion between devs and players about the proposed evolution of hybrid buffs since mid-December. The "NeXGate" Scandal and its subsequent and apologetic letter from CCP CEO clearly mentioned lack of communication was the core issue which caused a fissure to expand between the playerbase and CCP. I don't understand how something which happened so recently seems to have already been forgotten.
  • The aforementioned Null changes appear to be forward progress for hybrids in medium and large turret combat, but I am worried this blanket change to hybrid ammo will put Gallente frigates in the front-runnings for skirmishing. Frankly, Minmatar have had the crown at so many levels for so long, I don't really care. What I DO care about is the minimal effort in foresight it takes to see this, and its underlying detriment of what many people have called power creep. Power creep is how hybrids got into this mess in the first place, and I don't want to hear about hybrid nerfs 2-3 years from now. Still, seems like this is all being ignored; again, no discussion about this occuring between players and CCP.
    • [*] Despite all of the changes that have, will, or may, occur to hybrids, there still has been a fundamental misunderstanding by CCP in addressing the overall hybrid problem; a proverbial dropping-of-the-ball. Even if hybrids were some mythical godlike weapon, combining all of the benefits of lasers and projectiles, there is still no reason to use hybrids because hybrid ships are BAD. Amarr ships will always cater to fleet combat due to dominant armor effective hit points. Minmatar ships will always cater to skirmishing due to speed. Even more so, Amarr ships CAN perform in skirmish due to instant-crystal-swap which compliments the dynamic changes in range during a dogfight, and Minmatar ships CAN perform in fleet combat because artillery provides alpha. Caldari don't quite fit in the picture, but they do get ECM, drakes, and tengus, each of which is a solid, niche performer in its own right. Gallente ships do not participate in this rock-paper-scissors contest at any level. You MUST give Gallente ships something which appeals to pilot before the pilot even flies into combat. Give them insane agility. Give them more speed. Give them stronger scan res or signal strength, but for the love of god GIVE THEM SOMETHING! To ignore this would be no different than throwing all hybrid buff efforts in the garbage because no one wants to fly a ship which isn't the king of SOME hill.
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1760 - 2012-01-20 22:57:47 UTC
hear hear
the players can see why and how
but ccp dosnt wont to acknowlage