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Black Pedro a couple of things.

One why would any industrialist band up with other industrialists and increase their own competition? This is not pvP where more is better this is a market place where more is worse.

As to risk. Yes the new structures are a lot more risk and I really see no point in it.
Yes it does create a higher risk vs reward but the rewards are not huge to begin with and given the cost of the structure and the cost cost the fuel, the only ones who would be likely to risk it are not industrialists but PvPers who can defend their bases.

As for casual players who may currently use a POS which can be pulled down and can even defend itself to some extent, the new citadels are aimed squarely at those who have no life.

Do you think it is a healthy situation when MMO game has no incentives for people to cooperate?

I like how good is CCP in communicating. Neither them or CSM are here to explain the design and address concerns. As I mentioned earlier, the clear statement of design goals would've prevented a larger part of frustration - alas, that's too much effort for them I guess.

It's easy: removing POSes solve this concern. And it will happen once ECs are finished.

Aside from the fact Eve is supposed to be a sandbox - Meaning no-one should be forced to "co-operate" with anyone should they choose not to.

Do you really think the larger industrialists are going to open their specialized EC's to the public AND create more competition for what they produce and sell?

EC's by Dev design are meant to be specialized structures with no single structure able to do everything - That in itself means, those groups who can afford the best of these structures are going to keep them restricted to them - Not open them up to the average industrialist who may become market competition.
This is the thing Devs missed (or at least haven't offered any explanation for) in their whole design, industrialists don't share. Most are very secretive about what they do and how they do it - And for very good reason. To keep competition down as much as possible and profits as high as possible.

Pedro is right about one thing - No industrialist can corner the market on everything, that is why none of them try. But at the same time, large industrial groups aren't going to share specialized facilities with others and create competition for themselves.

His comparison of market pvp to ship vs ship pvp is totally wrong - Industrialists "teaming up" = less profit for all = teaming up for industrial purposes is a bad thing.
Unfortunately Pedro has no real perspective on market and industrial pvp vs ship to ship combat - "Just go blow up the competitions structures", confirms this.
For what he seems to think is the future of industry to become a reality, would mean major alliances putting EC's up and funding industrialists to build for the alliance as a whole (and take a small % of the profits for their efforts). Nul Alliances have had this type of thing available to them for years (bonused stations reduced fuel costs for pos's with sov, etc) but it has never been successfully don't, because the average industrialist is not going to volunteer his time and resources (characters, build slots etc) so that everyone else makes isk. People get into industry because they like it and want to make isk from it, (over ratting or incursions, etc) they aren't going to donate their income to someone else..

I belonged to an alliance that tried co-operative building to increase super capital production ( a good cause for a nul alliance) - Out of a 4K man alliance, less than 100 people stepped up and most of those, were already involved with the alliance super cap program. The idea died in less than a month and all the alliance was asking for was each industrialist to donate ONE build slot.

Serious industrialists - Don't play well with others.

Humpf,

- Teaming up will not go above 20 player per system due to the resultant 5% system cost index, which make it inefective versus NPS station in 1.5% system. But 20, that's evidently more than a solo ^^
- On defensive side for medium ECs, try to fit one on SISI-> Just not worth the hassle and the cost. It will be blown easily.

The only way to defend it is really to play 100% as industrialist and make connections with PVP groups.
Personnaly, I won't to do it : it's too much time that i agree to dedicate. But some will embrace the new gameplay.

If you want to stay solo-casual, you have to estimate a probability to the events "my ECs will explode after 1 month, 2 months, n months" and make your profits calculation versus NPC station accordingly.

Depending of the fuel cost involved, ME bonus, and the cost of setting a medium ECs the result will push solo to NPCs station or leave some good incentives to try ECs. This is the interaction of those three parameters and the probabilties of the ECs exploding after n months that set the gameplay for a solo.

At the moment, the results are not in favor of using ECs for solo character. It starts to be just interessting from two characters.
I would be fine for instance with keeping those high fuel cost but with a better ME bonus to increase the reward side for a solo.

And if I chose to?
You print out walls of text proving the obvious - cooperation is detrimental atm. But your mistake is that you imply this is the way it should be. No, it's not. This is MMO and I should be rewarded for cooperation.

I've fitted my Tear Collector II and I'm allready a billionaire from your whiner tears.

1. Fuel consumption does not matter, it can be 200 / hour or 2000 / hour that changes nothing, market prices would follow the rising maintenance costs and risk after POS's phase out. So fear not lads, you'd have roughly the same profit as before, just wait til the POS's phase out. This is fact, not a guess, this is how market works.

2. POS's are more simple, and lower maintenance but THEY WOULD DISAPPEAR asap EC's are finished, so industry guys, HTFU, and get used to EC's, those are your future, not NPC stations if you want to remain in business. No matter how you cry, you'd all end up having EC's or using Freeport EC's like it or not, no matter how you resist. CCP is determined, so it's gona be.

3. I haven't seen any major patch over my 10+ year EVE career that was accepted by all, there were allways whiners, who didn't like something in the new patch. But community is a really creative beast and it would find a good way to operate new stuff effectively as it did allways in the past. Probably those who now resist the most would be the first who exploit the new features to their advance.

So instead of whining over the unchangable facts, why don't you thinking on:

How to use the new structures best, how to maximise profit, and minimise risk?
This would be much more productive than the whining over how bad EC's gona be.....

Yup, outside of highsec anyway as our friend was claiming his was located. I can start shooting your POS at any time during our standard 24h clock and on any day of our week. With the new structures, that is not possible as there are only small, defined windows chosen by the defender during which I can attack.

In highsec however, POSes are indeed invulnerable as the defender has plenty of time to take them down during the warm up to a war and stash them nice and snug in the safety of a station. The defender does not have to actually defend their POS if they don't want to and there is no way as an attacker I can force a fight.

I would have thought these simple concepts would be self-evident to any Eve player, but clearly I should be more more precise in how I write.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=496518&find=unread


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