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So, could you sum up your suggestions?

As for me:
1. Rorqual should be docking in a large EC. (Quite obvious and easy fix.)
2. [In]vulnerability mechanics is really bad. POS or even current sov are way better. Hell, even the POCO is better.
3. I agree that rigs might be a little bit too inflexible. They better develop convenient real estate market really soon after this release.


With EC or citadel, you can transfer ownership to another corp.

After talking to CCP habakuk on sisi it seems like we get to test the new complexes on monday. as long as tings work out lol.

I'm not someone who has a problem with the costs. Asset safety in HS mean the risk there is probably about the same - where before you lost whatever was stored, plus bpos, etc in jobs, you now lose just the expensive structure. I think that's ok.

I'm certainly not using the language of "forced" - but I see what you mean about pilots now having to make a choice, but that brings it all back to my other (much earlier) post about how this scales, Medium, to Large, to X-L ECs. It seems there's no evident operating cost benefit to running a niche operation.

Certainly thought provoking. I'm looking forward to Fozzie's follow up.

/JTK

Ah yes, "Think of the newbies!". I know that song. I hear it often. Usually performed by experienced players, quoting suggestions that favor their personal play style more than an actual new player.

Let us have an honest discussion of the new player and a small scale industrialist. To start with, we will need to establish some baselines and definitions.

Can we agree that a "new player" would be someone with Mass production 4, having a total of 5 lines to work with, and limited funds?
Can we further agree that a solo small scale industrialist would be a single account producer with a maximum of 30 lines?

Now the major point of contention is structure setup and operational cost. We can agree that the most desirable setup being quoted for "the new guy" will be a small tower. This has an operational cost of 200,000 ISK per hour, in addition to the up front cost.

What is the upfront cost of a small tower? No, not the cost of the stick. Including the necessary modules to store and produce goods, as well as defensive structures to deter people poking at it when you are offline. Since versatility of the starbase is being emphasized, let us allow for production of everything subcapital for the small guy. That's what, 1 Billion ISK? We can cut more of a break to the newbie, call it 400-500 mil?.

But that is not the entirety of startup costs. That is just the facility. We now need to get a baseline of BPO's. These have a cost. As do the materials to enter production. Can we get an example here of something that a new player can build on 5 lines that will net a profit per hour, that after fuel costs, will exceed the profit per hour of building the same thing in a station? Lets call it at a 1.0 industry index. Does that sound reasonable? What is the startup cost of said BPO's and materials for a 24 hour run? How long does it take to pay off the blueprints and structure investment?

With that, we can increase the volume of the same product by a factor of 6 to get an idea of a small solo guy.

That is the now. What about the future?

This is where you run a comparison of manufacturing the same thing, at say a 4.0 index with a 50% tax rate at a public Raitaru with T2 rigs vs station at 1.0. Note there is no fuel cost. Does this leave the new guy with more or less profit? How long does it take to pay off the blueprint investment? Note there is no structure investment here.

Then we have your own structure. What is the fitted cost of a T1 rigged Raitaru? Hull and rigs about 1 Billion, plus fittings. Will the service modules and weapons really add up to that much more than a full tower? Let us presume the same 4.0 index. The taxes are down to 0, replaced instead by a fuel cost of 600,000 isk per hour. Assuming no external revenue from the structure and a relatively high index, where does this leave our producer with poor man rigs? Does he make more than in a station? Does he make more than using public? How long to pay off the cumulative investment?

Once we have some real numbers, we can have a real discussion of if and how good or bad this is for the new guy.


I can't follow this example through, because I can't think of anything off the top of my head that would make sufficient income on 5 lines. Not without an up front investment that eclipses the cost difference between a fully functional tower and a T1 rigged Raitaru. I don't exactly feel like researching the topic that extensively.

After all, I got shot down on producing a T1 cruiser as being too expensive with a 100? mil blueprint and 100-200 mil in materials per line per day. Expecting a new player to buy and haul 500 mil to one Bil in minerals a day does seem a little excessive. It's more significant than the cost of the tower itself. He is also looking at a profit of 900,000 isk per hour in his tower, per line, at a 1.16 index. Is going from 4,300,000 per hour to 3,900,000 over a tripled fuel cost going to kill him, ignoring the increased production benefits? Note that tripling the fuel cost requires running TWO services - he does not actually need to install and run research and invention services.

Running that job at a 1.16 index in a station puts him at around 580,000 per hour. In a 4.0 index EC with 50% tax puts him at 930,000. This is not only 50% more profit than station production in a 1.16 system. It is more income than his small pos in a 1.16 system, while producing in one of the most congested systems only 4 jumps from Jita, with absolutely minimal upfront cost.

"But the poor little guy..."

S size industry platform would be cool to have. Sure thing!

would you care to explain how you get 66 industry lines on 3 characters? Or are you attempting to roll research lines into the question also.

Also Vlad you didn't get 'told off' for using a Cruiser on one line. You got told off for attempting to use the cruiser in every single line. A small scale industrialist might very well have 1 or 2 lines of cruisers going, but not 10 & not 30.

I also am going to go back to what I said before. Alts should not be required gameplay for a profession, and that includes alts on the same account.

TIL that research lines count when you're calculating the fuel costs of a structure, but should be ignored when calculating the productivity because reasons.

I may have missed it so apologies if the question has been answered but can I confirm that if I went for the middle of the road complex I can install a market there?

This is the EXACT setup I've been looking for and at the quoted cost it would be a very worthy enterprise for my little corp.

The service module is clearly marked as citadel-only.

...on the test server the market module states fortizar keepstar (keepstar palatine) and lastly engineering complex... where did they ever state that it would be citadel only? as far as i know tis just blocked from all medium structures.