These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Using a DST's fleet hangar to scoop loot needs rebalancing
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#101 - 2016-09-22 18:58:15 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:

Miniluv is the best example of ganking for profit in the current meta. This is about ganking, but Miniluv is the perfect example.

This isnt about CCP stepping in to nerf ganking. Once.... Again.... I will..... Repeat.... Myself.... This is a call to CCP to change the way you can circumvent the real consequences of crimwatch by going suspect with a worthless ship, placing loot into a DST thst would normally flag you as suspect.

So yes CCP does need to step in because the sandbox will be better balanced from a risk averse form of bypassing crimewatch to loot.

So if this change goes through and instead of gankers using DSTs to look, going suspect for you to shoot at... It will still give you something to shoot at because they will use another ship if the choose to. The point is that the ship will go suspect, which is the way it should be. If it was me i would use a DST when the situation arose. The size cargo it can hold is still something that would make it the superior ship, even before you factor in superior stats and not being forced to fit cargo expanders.



Making something more costly/more difficult is a nerf. That may not be your intent, but that is the effect. Here, let me use a different in game item, the cyno gen module. Was it nerfed with jump fatigue and jump range nerfs? Yes. A cyno is no alot less valuable than it was because people are not going to be jumping in a bunch of ships like they used too.

And it is not CCPs business to address the levels of risk players take.

You keep using risk averse in ways that makes me think you just don't understand the concept.

Risk aversion is a personal thing. For example, I might be more risk averse than you--that is I have less tolerance for endeavors that have a higher probability of a bad outcome. It is subjective and trying to balance a game on that is just nonsense when you get right down to it because everyone will have their own preferences for risk.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#102 - 2016-09-22 18:59:47 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:
Ive explained this twice now. Do you need to see a physician?
You can prove them wrong as much as you want, they'll just repeat the same BS over and over again, completely ignoring what others said. That's how they always try to derail these kind of threads, often garnished with walls of text, so that hopefully nobody really wants to continue reading the thread. Happened countless times before.

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#103 - 2016-09-22 19:00:42 UTC
Haulers sure ain't going to prevent it, that is correct. By the time OP's story begins, they've already exploded. Roll
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#104 - 2016-09-22 19:01:25 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:

Thats proven false by the amount of freighters that are killed without freight containers. Its not a deterrance at all because theyve only ever lost a small handful of freighters while going suspect.. Even on top of AG they still manage to get them out... Hell ive personally done it too when i was hyperdunking. Looted 50b and went suspect in an expanded Obelisk with no webber and warped away to safet with the help of a MMJD.

So no containers arent something they worry about.


Because you are not using them. Same with web alts, escort logi, scouts, breaking your expensive load into smaller cheap loads and so on.

I recall the ice interdictions and all of the bitching by miner over how easy it was to kill them for profit. We are talking multiple threads every day for months on end. The reality was that out of 600 exhumers we killed in the first 2 weeks of the caldari ice interdiction not a single one fitted a tank.

If you don't use the tools available then you wont see their benefit. Load your junk into a freight container and force gankers to use a freighter to scoop the loot.

Hello, im a broken record. You obviously arent reading because the existance of containers in a freighter is not a deterrance for gankers. Sure they get screwed every once in a while where all the loot is in a can and the can burns, but it hasnt slowed them down yet.


Why is it CCP's job to put in an additional mechanical deterrence? At which point does it become player responsibility to protect their stuff vs. relying on CCP?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#105 - 2016-09-22 19:02:17 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Haulers sure ain't going to prevent it, that is correct. By the time OP's story begins, they've already exploded. Roll


Then that is their problem.

Literally...**** 'em if they are going to be imprudent.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#106 - 2016-09-22 19:11:05 UTC
Cade Windstalker
#107 - 2016-09-22 20:01:20 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
But you aren't talking about changing the players, you are putting another layer of insulation between them and their bad decisions with this change. And how far up the chain does this go? Does the freighter that is getting the goods also get the flag?

Frankly this is yet another nerf to ganking and an indirect buff to being a moron in game.


This isn't insulating anything, it's putting the ganker at risk when looting the wreck as opposed to the current system where you can use a noob-ship to loot 40km3 with no risk to the loot or an expensive ship.

If you change this then it's possible a clever ganker can still get the loot fairly safely (maybe using a T1 hauler, for example) but that puts a ship with more value at risk, puts the loot at more risk, and probably gives other players more time to respond in hilarious and explosive fashion.

In short I think you're only really in favor of letting morons be morons when they're the morons getting ganked, not the ones doing the ganking. When you start forcing them to be clever and quick it gets unpopular... Roll
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#108 - 2016-09-22 20:26:22 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
But you aren't talking about changing the players, you are putting another layer of insulation between them and their bad decisions with this change. And how far up the chain does this go? Does the freighter that is getting the goods also get the flag?

Frankly this is yet another nerf to ganking and an indirect buff to being a moron in game.


This isn't insulating anything, it's putting the ganker at risk when looting the wreck as opposed to the current system where you can use a noob-ship to loot 40km3 with no risk to the loot or an expensive ship.

If you change this then it's possible a clever ganker can still get the loot fairly safely (maybe using a T1 hauler, for example) but that puts a ship with more value at risk, puts the loot at more risk, and probably gives other players more time to respond in hilarious and explosive fashion.

In short I think you're only really in favor of letting morons be morons when they're the morons getting ganked, not the ones doing the ganking. When you start forcing them to be clever and quick it gets unpopular... Roll


The gankers are the ones being clever. They have a logistics network to get ships where they need to be, FCs, voice comms, and doctrines and have figured out how to scoop the loot with reduced risk. How is any of that dumb or moronic?

The guy putting 6 billion in his freighter without even using a scout now he is dumb.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Paranoid Loyd
#109 - 2016-09-22 20:29:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Re: Unfair/Unbalanced

The gank game was fun and thriving when knowledge meant power.

This concept has been all but completely removed in a constant effort to balance things.

Until we go back towards the original successful model and stop trying so hard to make everything fair and balanced at the cost of fun, we are doomed to failure.

If you think making the proposed change will make the game more fun, you seriously need to work on your understanding of the meta and what the result in reality would be.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
Something Really Pretentious
#110 - 2016-09-22 21:03:18 UTC
I will repeat this again for the people here that seem to have a lack of reading comprehension. This is not intended as a replacement for haulers using their brains before loading 8b+ into a freighter with no support... This idea was never even pitched as such a replacement.

This isn't a calling for CCP to fix a mechanic so that gankers won't want to gank freighters because I know very well that it won't stop. I don't want ganking to stop. I enjoy killing freighters and jump freighters myself. If you guys could stop parroting the same stuff that has nothing to do with the points I'm making then you will see that this is purely about the looting mechanic itself. It's a bad mechanic. It allows you to bypass crimewatch. It should be changed.

HTFU
Paranoid Loyd
#111 - 2016-09-22 21:06:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Just trying to get you to see the forest through the trees.

You keep pointing out this is just about this one issue. That is the definition of not seeing the forest through the trees.

I did not say that ganking will stop. It will most certainly make some people stop, but tell me this. Are you currently utilizing the mechanic? If it does get removed how will you change your tactics to scoop?

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#112 - 2016-09-22 21:23:40 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:

This tool you speak of isnt a tool at all. Containers in a freighter have no effect on protecting the cargo nor does it make the gankers recalculate their strategy.

Ive explained this twice now. Do you need to see a physician?


There are two freighters, both have 4 bil in the hold but one of them is lugging their cargo in freight containers. Gankers can only go for one target so they go for the better target. The freighter with the freight containers gets away with it because the gankers can't filter his cargo through a DST.

Again, you have the tools to make yourself safer.
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
Something Really Pretentious
#113 - 2016-09-22 21:32:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:

This tool you speak of isnt a tool at all. Containers in a freighter have no effect on protecting the cargo nor does it make the gankers recalculate their strategy.

Ive explained this twice now. Do you need to see a physician?


There are two freighters, both have 4 bil in the hold but one of them is lugging their cargo in freight containers. Gankers can only go for one target so they go for the better target. The freighter with the freight containers gets away with it because the gankers can't filter his cargo through a DST.

Again, you have the tools to make yourself safer.

Jokes on you because the gankers can go for both. Keep the freighters bumped and throw the first fleet at the one without the container, then wait 15m and go for the next.

HTFU
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#114 - 2016-09-22 22:01:09 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:
I will repeat this again for the people here that seem to have a lack of reading comprehension. This is not intended as a replacement for haulers using their brains before loading 8b+ into a freighter with no support... This idea was never even pitched as such a replacement.

This isn't a calling for CCP to fix a mechanic so that gankers won't want to gank freighters because I know very well that it won't stop. I don't want ganking to stop. I enjoy killing freighters and jump freighters myself. If you guys could stop parroting the same stuff that has nothing to do with the points I'm making then you will see that this is purely about the looting mechanic itself. It's a bad mechanic. It allows you to bypass crimewatch. It should be changed.


Just because that is your intent does not mean that won't be the effect. Removal of the watchlist was not intended to kill focused HS wardecs...but it did.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#115 - 2016-09-22 22:03:35 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:

This tool you speak of isnt a tool at all. Containers in a freighter have no effect on protecting the cargo nor does it make the gankers recalculate their strategy.

Ive explained this twice now. Do you need to see a physician?


There are two freighters, both have 4 bil in the hold but one of them is lugging their cargo in freight containers. Gankers can only go for one target so they go for the better target. The freighter with the freight containers gets away with it because the gankers can't filter his cargo through a DST.

Again, you have the tools to make yourself safer.

Jokes on you because the gankers can go for both. Keep the freighters bumped and throw the first fleet at the one without the container, then wait 15m and go for the next.


So assume a can opener....okay, gotcha. P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#116 - 2016-09-22 22:05:26 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Just trying to get you to see the forest through the trees.

You keep pointing out this is just about this one issue. That is the definition of not seeing the forest through the trees.

I did not say that ganking will stop. It will most certainly make some people stop, but tell me this. Are you currently utilizing the mechanic? If it does get removed how will you change your tactics to scoop?


I would love to see the answer to this. No really. So pretend this change is made, and your next freighter gank you scoop the loot by.....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
Something Really Pretentious
#117 - 2016-09-22 22:08:54 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Just trying to get you to see the forest through the trees.

You keep pointing out this is just about this one issue. That is the definition of not seeing the forest through the trees.

I did not say that ganking will stop. It will most certainly make some people stop, but tell me this. Are you currently utilizing the mechanic? If it does get removed how will you change your tactics to scoop?


I would love to see the answer to this. No really. So pretend this change is made, and your next freighter gank you scoop the loot by.....

When I spent months hyperdunking I would go suspect in my freighter to secure the loot. If I still did this I would still use a freighter to go suspect or I would use a T1/T2 hauler.

HTFU
Paranoid Loyd
#118 - 2016-09-22 22:31:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Faylee Freir wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Just trying to get you to see the forest through the trees.

You keep pointing out this is just about this one issue. That is the definition of not seeing the forest through the trees.

I did not say that ganking will stop. It will most certainly make some people stop, but tell me this. Are you currently utilizing the mechanic? If it does get removed how will you change your tactics to scoop?


I would love to see the answer to this. No really. So pretend this change is made, and your next freighter gank you scoop the loot by.....

When I spent months hyperdunking I would go suspect in my freighter to secure the loot. If I still did this I would still use a freighter to go suspect or I would use a T1/T2 hauler.

Right, and if you are properly doing this what are the chances of you getting caught?

Also, you stopped ganking after they removed hyperdunking? If you enjoy it in it's current form why are you not doing it?

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
Something Really Pretentious
#119 - 2016-09-22 22:36:55 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Just trying to get you to see the forest through the trees.

You keep pointing out this is just about this one issue. That is the definition of not seeing the forest through the trees.

I did not say that ganking will stop. It will most certainly make some people stop, but tell me this. Are you currently utilizing the mechanic? If it does get removed how will you change your tactics to scoop?


I would love to see the answer to this. No really. So pretend this change is made, and your next freighter gank you scoop the loot by.....

When I spent months hyperdunking I would go suspect in my freighter to secure the loot. If I still did this I would still use a freighter to go suspect or I would use a T1/T2 hauler.

Right, and if you are properly doing this what are the chances of you getting caught?

Also, you stopped ganking after they removed hyperdunking? If you enjoy it in it's current form why are you not doing it?

I was caught once. I haven't stopped ganking.

HTFU
Paranoid Loyd
#120 - 2016-09-22 22:49:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
I didn't ask if you were caught, not that I believe you.

I asked while ignoring what you have classified as an unbalanced mechanic, if you properly utilize the mechanics that are available to you and don't screw up, what are the chances of getting caught? The answer is slim to none (if it's any other answer you're not doing it right), I've not used the "unbalanced" mechanic at all while scooping 1/4tril+ over the past few years because quite frankly it's not necessary.

So what exactly are you solving here besides making it harder for everyone whether they understand the mechanics or not?

Do you really think after this change the gankers that do endure it will just be sitting there suspect for you to catch?

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!