These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Using a DST's fleet hangar to scoop loot needs rebalancing

Author
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
Something Really Pretentious
#121 - 2016-09-22 23:11:41 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
I didn't ask if you were caught, not that I believe you.

I asked while ignoring what you have classified as an unbalanced mechanic, if you properly utilize the mechanics that are available to you and don't screw up, what are the chances of getting caught? The answer is slim to none (if it's any other answer you're not doing it right), I've not used the "unbalanced" mechanic at all while scooping 1/4tril+ over the past few years because quite frankly it's not necessary.

So what exactly are you solving here besides making it harder for everyone whether they understand the mechanics or not?

Do you really think after this change the gankers that do endure it will just be sitting there suspect for you to catch?

Here's the lossmail: https://zkillboard.com/kill/48857464/

Yeah sure there are current mechanics that are fair, balanced, and right and those get used... but this is a mechanic that also gets used. Sure it's an option and it's not necessary in every case, but it's a method used to increase the likely hood of the gank being profitable.

No, don't be silly. They won't just sit there as a suspect waiting for someone to tackle them... The point is that all gank loot should be secured by going suspect and when you don't have to use a freighter to do it, your DST's fleet hangar shouldn't be an easy out as a work around crimewatch.
Paranoid Loyd
#122 - 2016-09-22 23:31:02 UTC
Ok, keep ignoring the point i'm trying to make and just keep saying it should be fair and balanced, damn the consequences.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
Something Really Pretentious
#123 - 2016-09-23 00:23:39 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Ok, keep ignoring the point i'm trying to make and just keep saying it should be fair and balanced, damn the consequences.

Quote:
So what exactly are you solving here besides making it harder for everyone whether they understand the mechanics or not?

Proper looting mechanics. Who cares if not everyone understand or knows how to loot into a DST.
Paranoid Loyd
#124 - 2016-09-23 01:55:31 UTC
Thanks for confirming it's just about winning the argument, not what is best for the game.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
Something Really Pretentious
#125 - 2016-09-23 02:08:19 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Thanks for confirming it's just about winning the argument, not what is best for the game.

Bad mechanic is bad, sorry. The good news is that CCP is likely to think the same after a few members of CSM discuss this matter with them.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#126 - 2016-09-23 03:58:01 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
I didn't ask if you were caught, not that I believe you.

I asked while ignoring what you have classified as an unbalanced mechanic, if you properly utilize the mechanics that are available to you and don't screw up, what are the chances of getting caught? The answer is slim to none (if it's any other answer you're not doing it right), I've not used the "unbalanced" mechanic at all while scooping 1/4tril+ over the past few years because quite frankly it's not necessary.

So what exactly are you solving here besides making it harder for everyone whether they understand the mechanics or not?

Do you really think after this change the gankers that do endure it will just be sitting there suspect for you to catch?

Here's the lossmail: https://zkillboard.com/kill/48857464/

Yeah sure there are current mechanics that are fair, balanced, and right and those get used... but this is a mechanic that also gets used. Sure it's an option and it's not necessary in every case, but it's a method used to increase the likely hood of the gank being profitable.

No, don't be silly. They won't just sit there as a suspect waiting for someone to tackle them... The point is that all gank loot should be secured by going suspect and when you don't have to use a freighter to do it, your DST's fleet hangar shouldn't be an easy out as a work around crimewatch.



And you don't think this will lead to less ganking?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
Something Really Pretentious
#127 - 2016-09-23 04:56:06 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
I didn't ask if you were caught, not that I believe you.

I asked while ignoring what you have classified as an unbalanced mechanic, if you properly utilize the mechanics that are available to you and don't screw up, what are the chances of getting caught? The answer is slim to none (if it's any other answer you're not doing it right), I've not used the "unbalanced" mechanic at all while scooping 1/4tril+ over the past few years because quite frankly it's not necessary.

So what exactly are you solving here besides making it harder for everyone whether they understand the mechanics or not?

Do you really think after this change the gankers that do endure it will just be sitting there suspect for you to catch?

Here's the lossmail: https://zkillboard.com/kill/48857464/

Yeah sure there are current mechanics that are fair, balanced, and right and those get used... but this is a mechanic that also gets used. Sure it's an option and it's not necessary in every case, but it's a method used to increase the likely hood of the gank being profitable.

No, don't be silly. They won't just sit there as a suspect waiting for someone to tackle them... The point is that all gank loot should be secured by going suspect and when you don't have to use a freighter to do it, your DST's fleet hangar shouldn't be an easy out as a work around crimewatch.



And you don't think this will lead to less ganking?

Nope.

Even if it does, according to you less ganking = more whales = happy gankers
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#128 - 2016-09-23 05:34:52 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
I didn't ask if you were caught, not that I believe you.

I asked while ignoring what you have classified as an unbalanced mechanic, if you properly utilize the mechanics that are available to you and don't screw up, what are the chances of getting caught? The answer is slim to none (if it's any other answer you're not doing it right), I've not used the "unbalanced" mechanic at all while scooping 1/4tril+ over the past few years because quite frankly it's not necessary.

So what exactly are you solving here besides making it harder for everyone whether they understand the mechanics or not?

Do you really think after this change the gankers that do endure it will just be sitting there suspect for you to catch?

Here's the lossmail: https://zkillboard.com/kill/48857464/

Yeah sure there are current mechanics that are fair, balanced, and right and those get used... but this is a mechanic that also gets used. Sure it's an option and it's not necessary in every case, but it's a method used to increase the likely hood of the gank being profitable.

No, don't be silly. They won't just sit there as a suspect waiting for someone to tackle them... The point is that all gank loot should be secured by going suspect and when you don't have to use a freighter to do it, your DST's fleet hangar shouldn't be an easy out as a work around crimewatch.



And you don't think this will lead to less ganking?

Nope.

Even if it does, according to you less ganking = more whales = happy gankers


Again, raise the cost of something get less of it. So you are wrong on that we'll get less ganking.

And no it won't mean more whales. What it means is that the bar for ganking for profit will go up meaning gankers will pass by freighters they would have previously ganked.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#129 - 2016-09-23 05:40:18 UTC
Then that is their problem.

Literally...**** 'em if they are going to be imprudent. Blink
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#130 - 2016-09-23 05:51:10 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Then that is their problem.

Literally...**** 'em if they are going to be imprudent. Blink


Brokk, it is better when you don't post in such a dumb fashion.

They won't be ganking less because they are imprudent, but because they are prudent....and the imprudent will let off the hook.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
Something Really Pretentious
#131 - 2016-09-23 06:10:39 UTC
This is already in the works. Seems like CCP values the CSM's opinion on matters such as these.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#132 - 2016-09-23 06:57:36 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:
This is already in the works. Seems like CCP values the CSM's opinion on matters such as these.

Please provide some source for this.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#133 - 2016-09-23 09:39:57 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
I will repeat this again for the people here that seem to have a lack of reading comprehension. This is not intended as a replacement for haulers using their brains before loading 8b+ into a freighter with no support... This idea was never even pitched as such a replacement.

This isn't a calling for CCP to fix a mechanic so that gankers won't want to gank freighters because I know very well that it won't stop. I don't want ganking to stop. I enjoy killing freighters and jump freighters myself. If you guys could stop parroting the same stuff that has nothing to do with the points I'm making then you will see that this is purely about the looting mechanic itself. It's a bad mechanic. It allows you to bypass crimewatch. It should be changed.


Just because that is your intent does not mean that won't be the effect. Removal of the watchlist was not intended to kill focused HS wardecs...but it did.


Its a hypothetical exercise.

If you have two freighters with the same fittings, same piloting and the same amount of isk in the hold but one of them has its cargo in freight containers then the one with freight containers is less likely to be the one targeted because its harder to loot.

Again, we have the equipment in game to stop DST filtering. Its cheap, easy to find and easy to use.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#134 - 2016-09-23 13:43:52 UTC
Agreed on the containers- I hadn't yet realized this until this thread and I'll be sure to use them even more than I do now. (I've always used them, just not consciously for this purpose).

As for Teckos ...... dude, I knew it was dumb alright- then again, it was your own quote. Lol The moment you start posting something on topic in this thread I'll stop counter-trolling you. Deal?
Cade Windstalker
#135 - 2016-09-23 14:27:33 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
The gankers are the ones being clever. They have a logistics network to get ships where they need to be, FCs, voice comms, and doctrines and have figured out how to scoop the loot with reduced risk. How is any of that dumb or moronic?

The guy putting 6 billion in his freighter without even using a scout now he is dumb.


It's really not particularly hard or clever to get a bunch of catalysts to a system in High Sec. I can do it with an alt with about 2 days of training, maybe less. Voice Comms are about the lowest common denominator for organization in Eve, and while I'll credit some people for figuring out the ships that can be used to gank different targets effectively the vast majority of players are just copying the work of a few.

Figuring out how to loot a ship without losing something seems like a reasonable challenge, as opposed to circumventing the intent of the Suspect flag you get from looting a ship, which is that you have to risk something to steal from another player. Currently that doesn't exist.

None of this is going to seriously impact gankers or people stupid enough to stuff their freighter full to the gills with valuable cargo. I can already think of at least 2 ways to loot in relative safety here. That doesn't mean this isn't a reasonable change though.
Paranoid Loyd
#136 - 2016-09-23 15:26:35 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Thanks for confirming it's just about winning the argument, not what is best for the game.

Bad mechanic is bad, sorry. The good news is that CCP is likely to think the same after a few members of CSM discuss this matter with them.

In case you haven't noticed, I've never agreed or disagreed with whether or not it's bad mechanic, again you are completely missing the point.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
Something Really Pretentious
#137 - 2016-09-23 15:29:53 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Thanks for confirming it's just about winning the argument, not what is best for the game.

Bad mechanic is bad, sorry. The good news is that CCP is likely to think the same after a few members of CSM discuss this matter with them.

In case you haven't noticed, I've never agreed or disagreed with whether or not it's bad mechanic, again you are completely missing the point.

You don't encourage CCP to continuously better their game by weeding out bad mechanics and implementing good changes? Instead you argue to preserve these bad mechanics because "one more nerf"?.

It's alright though. CCP has been made fully aware and intends on changing this :)
Paranoid Loyd
#138 - 2016-09-23 15:43:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
I guess it's a perception of what's better. I don't feel the path the game is on right now is making it better. You keep harping on this one mechanic. It's a mentality on a conceptual level that I speak of. I feel the root of the problem is the mentality that everything should always be fair and balanced.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#139 - 2016-09-23 16:07:42 UTC
Fair and balanced is hard to achieve, and whether we should strive towards this is a good question indeed.

The case raised is borderline exploit though. I too don't want to cater to carebears, I don't believe all things should be equal and I'm known for flying sub-par ships as a hobby (truth! It makes the roflstomp so much more enjoyable doing it in "trash tier" vessles ahahahaaa).

Here, I see the opportunity for more flashy yellow thingies to shoot and this is something we need more of. It's literally the only situation the flag is made for, short of deliberately going yellow to trick people into a fight. It's its only reason to be, and circumventing that seems flat out wrong.

As far as I'm concerned, it's nothing but a bugfix. It does not impact fairness nor balance in the slightest; fear not.
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri
Dreamweb Industries
Novus Ordo.
#140 - 2016-09-23 17:02:55 UTC
I didn't want to respond to this thread at all, because, judging by the emotional colouring of some of your posts ("the gankers grab their tear stained pitch forks", etc., etc.), you've grown biased against freighter gankers for some reason. Whether it was caused by a personal conflict of some kind or the fact that hyperdunking was removed a year ago, it looks like you do want to have freighter ganking nerfed, because wanting to remove a tool that freighter fleets rely on without offering a viable alternative is, indeed, a nerf.

I won't argue against the fact that the Crimewatch system is imperfect. It has a number of loopholes that players can exploit, and CCP have so far taken the most simple measures to set a better balance within the system. However, even if a game mechanic is a crutch, or if it is illogical, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad for the game. For instance, it's been more or less agreed on that freighter bumping should be limited, but it's hard to come up with a complete alternative for it, so it stays for now.

Same with DST looting. You said you used to loot with a freighter directly - but, my dear, that was happening while you were hyperdunking, which was an activity that could be disrupted by a single white knight, so the hyperdunker would always keep a very low profile to prevent anyone from intervening. When we say "freighter fleets", we imagine local full of flashy reds and anti-gankers swarming around bumped freighters. If what you and many other players have been suggesting is applied without an alternative, the looting process will fall into the opposite extreme: the looter goes yellow and gets gang-raped, and the gankers' fleet can do nothing about it, no matter how strong its support wing is.

I'm not against having to risk freighters or DSTs per se, but, if gankers need to expose their expensive toys, they've got to have a way to protect them, too. I think that a relatively simple solution would be to expand the existing suspect mechanic: the looter stays a suspect for all players, as he does now, but if you fire at him, you become a legal target for both the suspect and his corp members. This could both give gankers the necessary means to protect their looters and incentivize their support characters to stay in player-made corps, which, in turn, makes them exposed to wardecs. As a result, all the sides involved have to step up their game at the same time.

If complimented by changes in other highsec mechanics, like bounty hunting and wardecs, it could result in an interesting new system. Balance is not about game mechanics being "good" or "logical" or "risky", it's about having counters available against other players' actions.

Agent of the New Order

Live by the Code - die by the Code.

The Voice of Highsec