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Using a DST's fleet hangar to scoop loot needs rebalancing
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Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
Something Really Pretentious
#1 - 2016-09-04 10:26:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Faylee Freir
The title is self-explanatory, but before anti-gankers just join the band wagon and the gankers grab their tear stained pitch forks; I will go on record and say that I use this tactic. Sorry im not some complainer looking for another nerf, but just good ol' fashioned balance. Allow me to explain the method and strategy.

Lets say that gankers have just killed a freighter amd want to scoop the loot, so they are presented with (3) options: Go suspect in a hauler/freighter OR use a DST's fleet hangar to run the loot to safety. The first option is very risky as scooping the loot directly into your cargo hold results in you going suspect, and available for anyone to agress and kill. The second option requires (2) people to perform and is 100% risk free.

In order to perform your 100% risk free loot scooping you will have a character in a cheap throwaway ship that will open the gank wreck. Warp a DST in and have the character in the throwaway ship open the flert hangar on the DST. The throwaway ship will drag the contents of the wreck into the fleet hangar, thus making the throwaway ship's pilot go suspect. The DST has no timers and is able to freely warp out barring being suicide ganked itself. The DST can make several trips like this with little to no risk at all to the looter or the gank loot itself.

So this is bad because despite what gankers say, there really is no risk throughout the entire ganking process. Sure you can have your bumper ganked, but besides that it really is extremely safe to gank and obtain the loot. This has been further buffed due to the wreck hp changes. Im not saying there arent ways that anti-gankers can prevent bumping/ganking or even methods to be increibly annoying; but the truth is that while FCing a fleet for this is much like herding cats and youre dependant on good drops to stay isk positive... The actual ganking and scooping process is far too easy and the potential reward (especially when being picky with targets and having a decent threshold for gsnks like Miniluv does) is very out of balance when you look at the overall risk of ganking stsrting with the first bump, to the final scopping of the loot.

Now not all loot will fit into a DST and will require gankers to actually go suspect in a freighter, but its not necessary unless the loot wont fit into a DST. I've listened to the coolaid drinkers for a while now and would be interested in a counter to the points ive made.

TL;DR: When performing an action that gives suspect timer to the pilot such as moving gank loot into a DST's fleet hangar, the DST pilot should also go suspect.

HTFU
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#2 - 2016-09-04 10:35:05 UTC
I didnt know it worked this way (i am normally the incursion runner you guys target) but you are right this seems incredibly unintentional and stupid...

If you move the loot from the hangar to the internal cargohold will that trigger suspect? since otherwise you can easily cram ~70k m3 into a cargo expanded dst... probably more
Lugh Crow-Slave
#3 - 2016-09-04 10:43:11 UTC
FireFrenzy wrote:
I didnt know it worked this way (i am normally the incursion runner you guys target) but you are right this seems incredibly unintentional and stupid...

If you move the loot from the hangar to the internal cargohold will that trigger suspect? since otherwise you can easily cram ~70k m3 into a cargo expanded dst... probably more


no the trigger for going suspect is only activated when you take something out of a "flagged wreck" the items themselves are not flagged.

having an item put into your cargo from a suspect may be the best way but that punishes all suspects even those who may not be doing this.

you definitely can't flag the items from my understanding of the database.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
Something Really Pretentious
#4 - 2016-09-04 13:00:47 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
FireFrenzy wrote:
I didnt know it worked this way (i am normally the incursion runner you guys target) but you are right this seems incredibly unintentional and stupid...

If you move the loot from the hangar to the internal cargohold will that trigger suspect? since otherwise you can easily cram ~70k m3 into a cargo expanded dst... probably more


no the trigger for going suspect is only activated when you take something out of a "flagged wreck" the items themselves are not flagged.

having an item put into your cargo from a suspect may be the best way but that punishes all suspects even those who may not be doing this.

you definitely can't flag the items from my understanding of the database.

Im a believer in smart balancing so I would like to get some input on this. Its important to take into consideration any form of gameplay that this change effects.

You wouldnt need to do anything code wise with the loot I dont imagine. Instead you will make it where if a pilot loots a wreck that isnt his into the fleet hangar of a DST that it forces that DST pilot to inherit the suspect timer. The DST pilot would have to have his safety set to at least yellow because someone will cause that pilot to inherit a suspect timer. The DST has options to enable fleet hangar use for fleet members and/or corp members so having someone troll random DST pilots wouldnt be an issue. A DST pilot that is uninterested in the possibility of going suspect should use a green safety.

I cant think of any sort of gsmeplay in the sandbox that this will negatively effect, other than serving to balance the way gankers loot in safety.

HTFU
Lugh Crow-Slave
#5 - 2016-09-04 13:19:51 UTC
they would need to change the code though because you technically cant move from a wreck to a fleet hanger. the game actually moves it from the wreck into your hanger then into the DST this is why you can't do it with a pod.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
Something Really Pretentious
#6 - 2016-09-04 13:47:27 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
they would need to change the code though because you technically cant move from a wreck to a fleet hanger. the game actually moves it from the wreck into your hanger then into the DST this is why you can't do it with a pod.

I am not certain that this is how it works because I can be in a frigate and move 40,000m3 from a gank wreck into a DST's fleet hangar.

HTFU
Lugh Crow-Slave
#7 - 2016-09-04 14:00:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
yes so long as you have a max space of 0.01(irrc number may be wrong) you can do it because the M3 isn't actually used think of it more like a tube. it is the same thing when trying to move things around in a POS. so even if you only have a 10m3 cargo and 10m3 of it is full you can still do it. but if you have no cargo you can't


EDIT: this is ofc just my understanding of why this happens and how it was explained to me but as i am no dev i could be wrong.

if they can make it so it will flag the dst this way then i see no issue. im just voicing a concern as to why that may be hard to do

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#8 - 2016-09-04 15:05:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarah Flynt
I don't think there is much to add to the OP. It's a bug on the conceptual level of crimewatch 2.0 that is being heavily exploited for years. Before DST's gained fleet hangars, Orcas were used for the same purpose.

Just be aware that fleet hangars are not the only way around this. As soon as this special case would be fixed, people would just use cans or launched freight containers to launder the loot and we're back at square one. There needs to be a general solution to this. See this thread for just one possible solution.

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2016-09-17 18:55:03 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:
The title is self-explanatory, but before anti-gankers just join the band wagon and the gankers grab their tear stained pitch forks; I will go on record and say that I use this tactic. Sorry im not some complainer looking for another nerf, but just good ol' fashioned balance. Allow me to explain the method and strategy.

Lets say that gankers have just killed a freighter amd want to scoop the loot, so they are presented with (3) options: Go suspect in a hauler/freighter OR use a DST's fleet hangar to run the loot to safety. The first option is very risky as scooping the loot directly into your cargo hold results in you going suspect, and available for anyone to agress and kill. The second option requires (2) people to perform and is 100% risk free.

In order to perform your 100% risk free loot scooping you will have a character in a cheap throwaway ship that will open the gank wreck. Warp a DST in and have the character in the throwaway ship open the flert hangar on the DST. The throwaway ship will drag the contents of the wreck into the fleet hangar, thus making the throwaway ship's pilot go suspect. The DST has no timers and is able to freely warp out barring being suicide ganked itself. The DST can make several trips like this with little to no risk at all to the looter or the gank loot itself.

So this is bad because despite what gankers say, there really is no risk throughout the entire ganking process. Sure you can have your bumper ganked, but besides that it really is extremely safe to gank and obtain the loot. This has been further buffed due to the wreck hp changes. Im not saying there arent ways that anti-gankers can prevent bumping/ganking or even methods to be increibly annoying; but the truth is that while FCing a fleet for this is much like herding cats and youre dependant on good drops to stay isk positive... The actual ganking and scooping process is far too easy and the potential reward (especially when being picky with targets and having a decent threshold for gsnks like Miniluv does) is very out of balance when you look at the overall risk of ganking stsrting with the first bump, to the final scopping of the loot.

Now not all loot will fit into a DST and will require gankers to actually go suspect in a freighter, but its not necessary unless the loot wont fit into a DST. I've listened to the coolaid drinkers for a while now and would be interested in a counter to the points ive made.

TL;DR: When performing an action that gives suspect timer to the pilot such as moving gank loot into a DST's fleet hangar, the DST pilot should also go suspect.


This is not a mechanics issue. This is an issue with players who are imprudent and foolish. Fix that and you fix this problem.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2016-09-17 19:00:25 UTC
Inheriting the suspect flag looks like the most elegant solution, and very easy to implement. +1 Sir.
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
Something Really Pretentious
#11 - 2016-09-17 19:27:29 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
The title is self-explanatory, but before anti-gankers just join the band wagon and the gankers grab their tear stained pitch forks; I will go on record and say that I use this tactic. Sorry im not some complainer looking for another nerf, but just good ol' fashioned balance. Allow me to explain the method and strategy.

Lets say that gankers have just killed a freighter amd want to scoop the loot, so they are presented with (3) options: Go suspect in a hauler/freighter OR use a DST's fleet hangar to run the loot to safety. The first option is very risky as scooping the loot directly into your cargo hold results in you going suspect, and available for anyone to agress and kill. The second option requires (2) people to perform and is 100% risk free.

In order to perform your 100% risk free loot scooping you will have a character in a cheap throwaway ship that will open the gank wreck. Warp a DST in and have the character in the throwaway ship open the flert hangar on the DST. The throwaway ship will drag the contents of the wreck into the fleet hangar, thus making the throwaway ship's pilot go suspect. The DST has no timers and is able to freely warp out barring being suicide ganked itself. The DST can make several trips like this with little to no risk at all to the looter or the gank loot itself.

So this is bad because despite what gankers say, there really is no risk throughout the entire ganking process. Sure you can have your bumper ganked, but besides that it really is extremely safe to gank and obtain the loot. This has been further buffed due to the wreck hp changes. Im not saying there arent ways that anti-gankers can prevent bumping/ganking or even methods to be increibly annoying; but the truth is that while FCing a fleet for this is much like herding cats and youre dependant on good drops to stay isk positive... The actual ganking and scooping process is far too easy and the potential reward (especially when being picky with targets and having a decent threshold for gsnks like Miniluv does) is very out of balance when you look at the overall risk of ganking stsrting with the first bump, to the final scopping of the loot.

Now not all loot will fit into a DST and will require gankers to actually go suspect in a freighter, but its not necessary unless the loot wont fit into a DST. I've listened to the coolaid drinkers for a while now and would be interested in a counter to the points ive made.

TL;DR: When performing an action that gives suspect timer to the pilot such as moving gank loot into a DST's fleet hangar, the DST pilot should also go suspect.


This is not a mechanics issue. This is an issue with players who are imprudent and foolish. Fix that and you fix this problem.

Except that its not an issue with the players. Players in eve's sandbox are well known for finding loopholes and exploiting things until they get patched out. I dont blame them because its fun to sort of play musical chairs with CCP. They fix something do you find a way to achieve the same goal as before... Just with more work.

Fix or change the mechanic. You can change players.

HTFU
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2016-09-17 20:00:53 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
The title is self-explanatory, but before anti-gankers just join the band wagon and the gankers grab their tear stained pitch forks; I will go on record and say that I use this tactic. Sorry im not some complainer looking for another nerf, but just good ol' fashioned balance. Allow me to explain the method and strategy.

Lets say that gankers have just killed a freighter amd want to scoop the loot, so they are presented with (3) options: Go suspect in a hauler/freighter OR use a DST's fleet hangar to run the loot to safety. The first option is very risky as scooping the loot directly into your cargo hold results in you going suspect, and available for anyone to agress and kill. The second option requires (2) people to perform and is 100% risk free.

In order to perform your 100% risk free loot scooping you will have a character in a cheap throwaway ship that will open the gank wreck. Warp a DST in and have the character in the throwaway ship open the flert hangar on the DST. The throwaway ship will drag the contents of the wreck into the fleet hangar, thus making the throwaway ship's pilot go suspect. The DST has no timers and is able to freely warp out barring being suicide ganked itself. The DST can make several trips like this with little to no risk at all to the looter or the gank loot itself.

So this is bad because despite what gankers say, there really is no risk throughout the entire ganking process. Sure you can have your bumper ganked, but besides that it really is extremely safe to gank and obtain the loot. This has been further buffed due to the wreck hp changes. Im not saying there arent ways that anti-gankers can prevent bumping/ganking or even methods to be increibly annoying; but the truth is that while FCing a fleet for this is much like herding cats and youre dependant on good drops to stay isk positive... The actual ganking and scooping process is far too easy and the potential reward (especially when being picky with targets and having a decent threshold for gsnks like Miniluv does) is very out of balance when you look at the overall risk of ganking stsrting with the first bump, to the final scopping of the loot.

Now not all loot will fit into a DST and will require gankers to actually go suspect in a freighter, but its not necessary unless the loot wont fit into a DST. I've listened to the coolaid drinkers for a while now and would be interested in a counter to the points ive made.

TL;DR: When performing an action that gives suspect timer to the pilot such as moving gank loot into a DST's fleet hangar, the DST pilot should also go suspect.


This is not a mechanics issue. This is an issue with players who are imprudent and foolish. Fix that and you fix this problem.

Except that its not an issue with the players. Players in eve's sandbox are well known for finding loopholes and exploiting things until they get patched out. I dont blame them because its fun to sort of play musical chairs with CCP. They fix something do you find a way to achieve the same goal as before... Just with more work.

Fix or change the mechanic. You can change players.


But you aren't talking about changing the players, you are putting another layer of insulation between them and their bad decisions with this change. And how far up the chain does this go? Does the freighter that is getting the goods also get the flag?

Frankly this is yet another nerf to ganking and an indirect buff to being a moron in game.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lugh Crow-Slave
#13 - 2016-09-17 22:26:03 UTC
this is not a nerf to ganking its a nerf to looting. Why should you be able to get around crimwatch in this way?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2016-09-17 22:32:33 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
this is not a nerf to ganking its a nerf to looting. Why should you be able to get around crimwatch in this way?


Why not? Why enable people being stupid?

And yes, this will nerf ganking indirectly. People who gank freighters don't usually do it for ***** and giggles (sometimes they do to be sure) most do it for profit--i.e. piracy. This is definitely a nerf to that.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lugh Crow-Slave
#15 - 2016-09-17 23:00:18 UTC
how does this enable people to be stupid? and its not even that big a nerf to the profits you just may actually need to risk the hauler now.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2016-09-18 00:23:46 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
how does this enable people to be stupid? and its not even that big a nerf to the profits you just may actually need to risk the hauler now.


If you make it harder to engage in (HS) piracy, that is lowering the costs of being stupid (overfilling your freighter, not using a scout, trying to move through Niarja when there are 45 CODE. guys in there, etc.).

Want more of something: lower the costs of that something.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2016-09-18 00:34:22 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

If you make it harder to engage in (HS) piracy, that is lowering the costs of being stupid (overfilling your freighter, not using a scout, trying to move through Niarja when there are 45 CODE. guys in there, etc.).

But that's not what is being discussed here.
The "stupid" target already died -- it already paid the cost associated with his alleged stupidity. What is on trial, is what happens to the loot after that.

Looting a wreck and going suspect with hostiles on grid is also stupid; where's the cost for that?
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
Something Really Pretentious
#18 - 2016-09-18 01:42:11 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
The title is self-explanatory, but before anti-gankers just join the band wagon and the gankers grab their tear stained pitch forks; I will go on record and say that I use this tactic. Sorry im not some complainer looking for another nerf, but just good ol' fashioned balance. Allow me to explain the method and strategy.

Lets say that gankers have just killed a freighter amd want to scoop the loot, so they are presented with (3) options: Go suspect in a hauler/freighter OR use a DST's fleet hangar to run the loot to safety. The first option is very risky as scooping the loot directly into your cargo hold results in you going suspect, and available for anyone to agress and kill. The second option requires (2) people to perform and is 100% risk free.

In order to perform your 100% risk free loot scooping you will have a character in a cheap throwaway ship that will open the gank wreck. Warp a DST in and have the character in the throwaway ship open the flert hangar on the DST. The throwaway ship will drag the contents of the wreck into the fleet hangar, thus making the throwaway ship's pilot go suspect. The DST has no timers and is able to freely warp out barring being suicide ganked itself. The DST can make several trips like this with little to no risk at all to the looter or the gank loot itself.

So this is bad because despite what gankers say, there really is no risk throughout the entire ganking process. Sure you can have your bumper ganked, but besides that it really is extremely safe to gank and obtain the loot. This has been further buffed due to the wreck hp changes. Im not saying there arent ways that anti-gankers can prevent bumping/ganking or even methods to be increibly annoying; but the truth is that while FCing a fleet for this is much like herding cats and youre dependant on good drops to stay isk positive... The actual ganking and scooping process is far too easy and the potential reward (especially when being picky with targets and having a decent threshold for gsnks like Miniluv does) is very out of balance when you look at the overall risk of ganking stsrting with the first bump, to the final scopping of the loot.

Now not all loot will fit into a DST and will require gankers to actually go suspect in a freighter, but its not necessary unless the loot wont fit into a DST. I've listened to the coolaid drinkers for a while now and would be interested in a counter to the points ive made.

TL;DR: When performing an action that gives suspect timer to the pilot such as moving gank loot into a DST's fleet hangar, the DST pilot should also go suspect.


This is not a mechanics issue. This is an issue with players who are imprudent and foolish. Fix that and you fix this problem.

Except that its not an issue with the players. Players in eve's sandbox are well known for finding loopholes and exploiting things until they get patched out. I dont blame them because its fun to sort of play musical chairs with CCP. They fix something do you find a way to achieve the same goal as before... Just with more work.

Fix or change the mechanic. You can change players.


But you aren't talking about changing the players, you are putting another layer of insulation between them and their bad decisions with this change. And how far up the chain does this go? Does the freighter that is getting the goods also get the flag?

Frankly this is yet another nerf to ganking and an indirect buff to being a moron in game.

It doesnt matter who it nerfs or buffs. Its a bad mechanic that needs to be looked at. The fact that gankers primarilly use it doesnt matter. If there were another activity that resulted in potential billions being scooped up in a risk averse manner, i would want that addressed as well.

HTFU
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#19 - 2016-09-18 04:39:16 UTC
Stick your cargo into a freight container and this can't be pulled.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2016-09-18 07:35:07 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:

It doesnt matter who it nerfs or buffs. Its a bad mechanic that needs to be looked at. The fact that gankers primarilly use it doesnt matter. If there were another activity that resulted in potential billions being scooped up in a risk averse manner, i would want that addressed as well.



Rewarding stupid is never a good move. Ever.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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