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Dev Blog: Introducing Clone States & the Future of Access to EVE

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Ginger Naari
Doomheim
#1281 - 2016-09-09 18:58:18 UTC
Egsise wrote:
I remember when I started Eve I knew it takes years to train the skills.
That was actually the biggest reason I started Eve, I wanted to play a game that isn't over in six months like majority of games today.
When I ask why someone doesn't play Eve is that they worry that it takes 25 years to train everything to max level,
and they could never catch those who have started earlier.

Most new players don't understand that the reason why they can't do mission X or win that pvp fight is that they
don't have corpmates who fly with them, not the lack of skills.

I'm not sure if this is covered so here's my opinion about multiboxing.
I think you should not be allowed to log in more than one alpha clone at the time.
The alpha clone is targeted to new players and they need to learn that if they need more than one ship, well they need friends then not multiple accounts what they use to solo for six months and then quit Eve because it's boring.

If an old player with multiple accounts wants to look what Eve is now,
well he doesn't need more than one account at the time for that or to sell assets to plex or just to chat with old corpmates.

You shouldn't be allowed to log in an alpha clone with omega clone(s).
You are not allowed to do it with trial accounts either.




I'll reiterate something, maybe it'll get an answer...

I own 4 accounts (3 are playing accounts)

If I decide to let 2 lapse into an Alpha state, why EXACTLY shouldn't I be able to log them on along with the remaining Omega account(s) which I own and have subbed for over 4 years?

Stopping a player logging on his/her accounts however they like is just stupid. Any present player should be able to take advantage of f2p if he/she needs to without that restriction.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1282 - 2016-09-09 20:11:40 UTC
Ginger Naari wrote:
Egsise wrote:
I remember when I started Eve I knew it takes years to train the skills.
That was actually the biggest reason I started Eve, I wanted to play a game that isn't over in six months like majority of games today.
When I ask why someone doesn't play Eve is that they worry that it takes 25 years to train everything to max level,
and they could never catch those who have started earlier.

Most new players don't understand that the reason why they can't do mission X or win that pvp fight is that they
don't have corpmates who fly with them, not the lack of skills.

I'm not sure if this is covered so here's my opinion about multiboxing.
I think you should not be allowed to log in more than one alpha clone at the time.
The alpha clone is targeted to new players and they need to learn that if they need more than one ship, well they need friends then not multiple accounts what they use to solo for six months and then quit Eve because it's boring.

If an old player with multiple accounts wants to look what Eve is now,
well he doesn't need more than one account at the time for that or to sell assets to plex or just to chat with old corpmates.

You shouldn't be allowed to log in an alpha clone with omega clone(s).
You are not allowed to do it with trial accounts either.




I'll reiterate something, maybe it'll get an answer...

I own 4 accounts (3 are playing accounts)

If I decide to let 2 lapse into an Alpha state, why EXACTLY shouldn't I be able to log them on along with the remaining Omega account(s) which I own and have subbed for over 4 years?

Stopping a player logging on his/her accounts however they like is just stupid. Any present player should be able to take advantage of f2p if he/she needs to without that restriction.


Well, the technical aspects of this might be impossible...but from a theory stand point....

Limit it to 1 Alpha acount or

1 Alpha account/Omega Account?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Ginger Naari
Doomheim
#1283 - 2016-09-09 20:29:51 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Ginger Naari wrote:
Egsise wrote:
I remember when I started Eve I knew it takes years to train the skills.
That was actually the biggest reason I started Eve, I wanted to play a game that isn't over in six months like majority of games today.
When I ask why someone doesn't play Eve is that they worry that it takes 25 years to train everything to max level,
and they could never catch those who have started earlier.

Most new players don't understand that the reason why they can't do mission X or win that pvp fight is that they
don't have corpmates who fly with them, not the lack of skills.

I'm not sure if this is covered so here's my opinion about multiboxing.
I think you should not be allowed to log in more than one alpha clone at the time.
The alpha clone is targeted to new players and they need to learn that if they need more than one ship, well they need friends then not multiple accounts what they use to solo for six months and then quit Eve because it's boring.

If an old player with multiple accounts wants to look what Eve is now,
well he doesn't need more than one account at the time for that or to sell assets to plex or just to chat with old corpmates.

You shouldn't be allowed to log in an alpha clone with omega clone(s).
You are not allowed to do it with trial accounts either.




I'll reiterate something, maybe it'll get an answer...

I own 4 accounts (3 are playing accounts)

If I decide to let 2 lapse into an Alpha state, why EXACTLY shouldn't I be able to log them on along with the remaining Omega account(s) which I own and have subbed for over 4 years?

Stopping a player logging on his/her accounts however they like is just stupid. Any present player should be able to take advantage of f2p if he/she needs to without that restriction.


Well, the technical aspects of this might be impossible...but from a theory stand point....

Limit it to 1 Alpha acount or

1 Alpha account/Omega Account?



What if CCP made a snapshot of the server from, say, the day before the announcement. That then becomes the number of accounts mixed between Alpha and Omega you can log on at any one time?
Rin Aiko
CVT IND.
#1284 - 2016-09-09 20:36:05 UTC
Ginger Naari wrote:
Egsise wrote:
I remember when I started Eve I knew it takes years to train the skills.
That was actually the biggest reason I started Eve, I wanted to play a game that isn't over in six months like majority of games today.
When I ask why someone doesn't play Eve is that they worry that it takes 25 years to train everything to max level,
and they could never catch those who have started earlier.

Most new players don't understand that the reason why they can't do mission X or win that pvp fight is that they
don't have corpmates who fly with them, not the lack of skills.

I'm not sure if this is covered so here's my opinion about multiboxing.
I think you should not be allowed to log in more than one alpha clone at the time.
The alpha clone is targeted to new players and they need to learn that if they need more than one ship, well they need friends then not multiple accounts what they use to solo for six months and then quit Eve because it's boring.

If an old player with multiple accounts wants to look what Eve is now,
well he doesn't need more than one account at the time for that or to sell assets to plex or just to chat with old corpmates.

You shouldn't be allowed to log in an alpha clone with omega clone(s).
You are not allowed to do it with trial accounts either.




I'll reiterate something, maybe it'll get an answer...

I own 4 accounts (3 are playing accounts)

If I decide to let 2 lapse into an Alpha state, why EXACTLY shouldn't I be able to log them on along with the remaining Omega account(s) which I own and have subbed for over 4 years?

Stopping a player logging on his/her accounts however they like is just stupid. Any present player should be able to take advantage of f2p if he/she needs to without that restriction.


I will answer. Ccp needs to make money.

This is designed to attract new players not for vets to unsub alt accounts.

@ccp - hope you know that if there is no limit to alpha log ins you will have a lot of accounts unsub. You will amywAy but it will be worse if no limit is in place. I have spoken to many guys who are talking just going alpha even on mains.

Guess we will see
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1285 - 2016-09-09 21:00:38 UTC
Rin Aiko wrote:


I will answer. Ccp needs to make money.

This is designed to attract new players not for vets to unsub alt accounts.

@ccp - hope you know that if there is no limit to alpha log ins you will have a lot of accounts unsub. You will amywAy but it will be worse if no limit is in place. I have spoken to many guys who are talking just going alpha even on mains.

Guess we will see


Why on earth would they do that? Unsub their mains that is.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Ginger Naari
Doomheim
#1286 - 2016-09-09 21:05:21 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Rin Aiko wrote:


I will answer. Ccp needs to make money.

This is designed to attract new players not for vets to unsub alt accounts.

@ccp - hope you know that if there is no limit to alpha log ins you will have a lot of accounts unsub. You will amywAy but it will be worse if no limit is in place. I have spoken to many guys who are talking just going alpha even on mains.

Guess we will see


Why on earth would they do that? Unsub their mains that is.



I was thinking the same thing..

As for me, I was speaking theoretically about a couple going Alpha and the possibilities.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1287 - 2016-09-09 21:12:18 UTC
Ginger Naari wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Rin Aiko wrote:


I will answer. Ccp needs to make money.

This is designed to attract new players not for vets to unsub alt accounts.

@ccp - hope you know that if there is no limit to alpha log ins you will have a lot of accounts unsub. You will amywAy but it will be worse if no limit is in place. I have spoken to many guys who are talking just going alpha even on mains.

Guess we will see


Why on earth would they do that? Unsub their mains that is.



I was thinking the same thing..

As for me, I was speaking theoretically about a couple going Alpha and the possibilities.


They are aware they will literally become Alpha clones. All the SP outside the Alpha clone SP will no longer be "active"--i.e. they they'll be limited to T1 frigates and cruisers and T1 modules by and large.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1288 - 2016-09-09 22:06:38 UTC
Ginger Naari wrote:

What if CCP made a snapshot of the server from, say, the day before the announcement. That then becomes the number of accounts mixed between Alpha and Omega you can log on at any one time?

Sounds like "what if we gave some happy few high-profile industrialists T2 BPOs" to me.
There would be no reasonable explanation to give players in a year or two.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#1289 - 2016-09-10 05:29:21 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

They are aware they will literally become Alpha clones. All the SP outside the Alpha clone SP will no longer be "active"--i.e. they they'll be limited to T1 frigates and cruisers and T1 modules by and large.


Current Alphas can fit (but just barely) most T2 modules. They just do not have access to T2 guns/drones which is quite significant handicap even on T1 hulls.

Stats wise the Alpha fits will not be even in the same ballpark as subscribers similar fits would be. An Omen example fit I did earlier in this thread for comparison had approx 20% more dps at about 400% of the range, approx 20% more hp buffer, capacitor life, significantly better capabilities of applying that dps (drone speed, tracking, optimal, etc) and approx 20% better subspace speed. Which is not surprising at all considering the comparison is, in essence, between a 5 mil SP pilot and approx 80 mil SP pilot.

A bit too large gap to bridge if pilots of roughly equal skill (in non SP sense) happen to meet. That is before one considers that subscriber has access to T2, T3 and pirate hulls and Alphas do not.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1290 - 2016-09-10 05:37:56 UTC
Can't give them the same stats. Where's the carrot?
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#1291 - 2016-09-10 13:27:25 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Can't give them the same stats. Where's the carrot?


T2/T3 hulls, anything up from cruiser size, barges, freighters, cloak, cyno, industry, market, capitals, full training speed ... and the list goes on. Plenty of carrots, cucumbers and anything in-between there.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#1292 - 2016-09-10 14:07:52 UTC
Don't restrict the safeties on alphas that would suck. Open pvp sandbox and all.

Beyond that...
I think its a bit restricted as is and if we treat this as an extended trial i worry its gonna fall flat. Alphas will still struggle to get into the game when they'll be so weak and have so fewer options to omegas. Their sp limit alone is enough incentive to upgrade to omega and alphas could generate so much content for all of us, not just themselves, that more of us stay subbed for longer.

You can keep the 5mil sp limit but allow for much more freedom. Let them train skills to whatever levels they like. With diminishing returns and an sp limit this comes with its own pros and cons. I'd also let them cross train e-war. A caldari missile pilot without target painting is kinda silly. Other things I'd let them train is cloaking, ecm drones, mining barges, gas mining and ice mining, reprocessing and informorph psychology. Also is there any reason why non-caldari alphas can train electronic warfare to 4 with the proposed system??

This change allows for specialised chars, which is what we always say is a good way for noobs to not be insignificant, in combat or mining (or whatever the alpha wants) and make use of implants and multiple heads to make up for a lack of sp. They wont be competitive, but they wont forever suck at everything.

The final thing I'd do with this change is allow alphas to untrain skills. If we were to give them the freedom to make mistakes in training, the sp limit would make these mistakes a permanent handicap. So let them untrain skills at a rate of so many sp/hour.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#1293 - 2016-09-10 17:37:48 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Rin Aiko wrote:


I will answer. Ccp needs to make money.

This is designed to attract new players not for vets to unsub alt accounts.

@ccp - hope you know that if there is no limit to alpha log ins you will have a lot of accounts unsub. You will amywAy but it will be worse if no limit is in place. I have spoken to many guys who are talking just going alpha even on mains.

Guess we will see


Why on earth would they do that? Unsub their mains that is.

The same reason I refused to undock for half of the daily event.

I had decided the idea was that bad.

A signature :o
Captain Campion
Campion Corp.
#1294 - 2016-09-10 20:50:16 UTC
It seems wrong that noobs are put in noob corp with 11% tax. They're being punished and they don't even know it.
Quriel Arjar
Doomheim
#1295 - 2016-09-10 22:03:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Quriel Arjar
Daichi Yamato wrote:

Other things I'd let them train is cloaking, ecm drones, mining barges, gas mining and ice mining, reprocessing and informorph psychology. Also is there any reason why non-caldari alphas can train electronic warfare to 4 with the proposed system??


I would agree with you...

...if CCP implemented an impossible to bypass anti-multiboxing system.
And that, because of obvious reasons, will never happen.
Alteric Valar
Perkone
Caldari State
#1296 - 2016-09-11 03:18:50 UTC
I have to throw in my 2 cents here. I have just re-subbed my main account. Reason? Alpha really sucks for returning players. Sure its great for newcomers, however, as a returning player with 25+mil sp, being reduced to nothing really sucks. So my question is this. Will I be able to use my subbed account, and an alpha account at the same time? That would be worth it to me...
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1297 - 2016-09-11 05:41:41 UTC
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Rin Aiko wrote:


I will answer. Ccp needs to make money.

This is designed to attract new players not for vets to unsub alt accounts.

@ccp - hope you know that if there is no limit to alpha log ins you will have a lot of accounts unsub. You will amywAy but it will be worse if no limit is in place. I have spoken to many guys who are talking just going alpha even on mains.

Guess we will see


Why on earth would they do that? Unsub their mains that is.

The same reason I refused to undock for half of the daily event.

I had decided the idea was that bad.


Okay I see... no...wait I don't. You didn't think the daily events were a good thing so....you did not undock? Was that some sort of protest...a sit in or spin in?

And now because these other players think Alpha clones are a bad idea they are going to become Alphas because...it is a bad idea.

Talk about taking the Ultimatum Game to the next level. Shocked

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1298 - 2016-09-11 05:43:23 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Don't restrict the safeties on alphas that would suck. Open pvp sandbox and all.

Beyond that...
I think its a bit restricted as is and if we treat this as an extended trial i worry its gonna fall flat. Alphas will still struggle to get into the game when they'll be so weak and have so fewer options to omegas. Their sp limit alone is enough incentive to upgrade to omega and alphas could generate so much content for all of us, not just themselves, that more of us stay subbed for longer.

You can keep the 5mil sp limit but allow for much more freedom. Let them train skills to whatever levels they like. With diminishing returns and an sp limit this comes with its own pros and cons. I'd also let them cross train e-war. A caldari missile pilot without target painting is kinda silly. Other things I'd let them train is cloaking, ecm drones, mining barges, gas mining and ice mining, reprocessing and informorph psychology. Also is there any reason why non-caldari alphas can train electronic warfare to 4 with the proposed system??

This change allows for specialised chars, which is what we always say is a good way for noobs to not be insignificant, in combat or mining (or whatever the alpha wants) and make use of implants and multiple heads to make up for a lack of sp. They wont be competitive, but they wont forever suck at everything.

The final thing I'd do with this change is allow alphas to untrain skills. If we were to give them the freedom to make mistakes in training, the sp limit would make these mistakes a permanent handicap. So let them untrain skills at a rate of so many sp/hour.




Hmmm...yeah a 5 million SP limit, but let them decide where to put it....okay.

With some possible exclusions such as cynos and cloaks. Other contenders?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1299 - 2016-09-11 05:45:28 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

They are aware they will literally become Alpha clones. All the SP outside the Alpha clone SP will no longer be "active"--i.e. they they'll be limited to T1 frigates and cruisers and T1 modules by and large.


Current Alphas can fit (but just barely) most T2 modules. They just do not have access to T2 guns/drones which is quite significant handicap even on T1 hulls.

Stats wise the Alpha fits will not be even in the same ballpark as subscribers similar fits would be. An Omen example fit I did earlier in this thread for comparison had approx 20% more dps at about 400% of the range, approx 20% more hp buffer, capacitor life, significantly better capabilities of applying that dps (drone speed, tracking, optimal, etc) and approx 20% better subspace speed. Which is not surprising at all considering the comparison is, in essence, between a 5 mil SP pilot and approx 80 mil SP pilot.

A bit too large gap to bridge if pilots of roughly equal skill (in non SP sense) happen to meet. That is before one considers that subscriber has access to T2, T3 and pirate hulls and Alphas do not.


You do understand there needs to be a reason for me to keep paying my sub....right? Because if there isn't I won't.

Seriously, your grasp of fundamental economics sucks donkey balls.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1300 - 2016-09-11 08:47:28 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Carniflex wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

They are aware they will literally become Alpha clones. All the SP outside the Alpha clone SP will no longer be "active"--i.e. they they'll be limited to T1 frigates and cruisers and T1 modules by and large.


Current Alphas can fit (but just barely) most T2 modules. They just do not have access to T2 guns/drones which is quite significant handicap even on T1 hulls.

Stats wise the Alpha fits will not be even in the same ballpark as subscribers similar fits would be. An Omen example fit I did earlier in this thread for comparison had approx 20% more dps at about 400% of the range, approx 20% more hp buffer, capacitor life, significantly better capabilities of applying that dps (drone speed, tracking, optimal, etc) and approx 20% better subspace speed. Which is not surprising at all considering the comparison is, in essence, between a 5 mil SP pilot and approx 80 mil SP pilot.

A bit too large gap to bridge if pilots of roughly equal skill (in non SP sense) happen to meet. That is before one considers that subscriber has access to T2, T3 and pirate hulls and Alphas do not.


You do understand there needs to be a reason for me to keep paying my sub....right? Because if there isn't I won't.

Seriously, your grasp of fundamental economics sucks donkey balls.

You can see what's happening there, train all your secondary skills to max whatever you need then sub to train the hulls and weapon systems higher than the base frigate line.

Never going to happen.