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Dev Blog: Introducing Clone States & the Future of Access to EVE

First post First post First post
Author
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1261 - 2016-09-08 14:48:19 UTC
Mikka johna Caboose wrote:
Don't know if this as come up but what happens if say your in a stealth bomber in wormhole space and you go to alpha clone status
I've a friend that is potentially in that situation

Q: What happens if my subscription ends while I'm logged in, will I be converted to Alpha in the middle of a fight?

A: In these cases, you will remain an Omega until the next time you log out. We won't ever turn skills off during the middle of a session.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#1262 - 2016-09-08 15:30:48 UTC
Daylan Vokan wrote:

I see flocks of Worms on the horizon in this, granted you dont know the limiting of speed in training at present but even at current rates it only takes either a solid 4 months to achieve so say its 6 months with alphas, or a returning players dropping to alpha status.

This is done very quickly:
3x rocket launcher II with Scourge rage
Fed navy AB
CN Med shield ext
Stasis and scram II
DCU II
FN DDA

CDFE II
Anti EM II
Anti Therm II

Augmented Drones 330+ dps drop the DCU II and one of the mid slot utilities for another FN DDA cranked it upto 355 DPS
Small fleet of these say 12 you could drop so many of the drones for EC 300's and your still cranking out over 3600 DPS or keep all drone combat for a healthy 4200 DPS.

Speed 1100ms
9-11k ehp
Easy to switch damaged types.

You think this wont be a problem.


Yes. That would indeed be a possibility and I personally do not see a huge problem with that for following reasons: (1) high price - while I do not consider price a balancing factor (and neither do devs as far as I have seen) it is also not irrelevant thing either in everyday life of EVE, (2) the numbers are comparable to the current very restricted Alpha capabilities with the cruisers, (3) the setup has vulnerabilities which can be used to counter it with similar numbers but a bit cheaper fits for the pvp purposes, most notable ofc the ability to kill some drones and/or severy limit their effectivity by outrunning the worms and/or its drones, (4) if talking about my initial three post wall of text proposal specifically these worms would be unable to assign drones so it is not possible to easily abuse that swarm by running multiple clients simultaneously and have one or two "triggers" directing all that dps in half automated way. Ofc my initial proposal also consisted a suggestion to limit Alphas to max two simultaneous accounts logged in at the same time, if technically feasible. As far as I understand the dev answers here and elsewhere there might be some technical difficulties with that one though.


Actually this example worm fit is a very good example, in my opinion, why an unrestricted T1 frigate limited Alpha would be OK. It is actually competitive with T2 AF fits in some scenarios which is exactly one of the points I have been driving for. An AF fit that is comparable in its capabilities is somewhat cheaper than the reasonably pimp pirate hull, meaning that the Omega has advantage - because he has to grind for less time for achieving that than Alpha but Alpha can get close enough to have a good possibility of winning the engagement just at the greater time (grind) investment.

I believe such a worm fit would be fun to fly for Alphas. They would win some engagements, there is a significant amount of grind-time on line for them so they would probably get pretty good adrenaline rush out of it and if that is what they are after they would get hooked in EVE. A fast combat with small ships is one of the best things the EVE can offer for a pilot trying out EVE. There is A LOT of pilot individual skill involved, meaning a lot of potential to "git guud", the pilot can in general pick his/her engagements and is slippery enough to escape if Omegas bring overwhelming force while the setup has enough bite to punish anyone who thinks "lol its just dozen frigates".

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1263 - 2016-09-08 15:45:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Daylan Vokan
Carniflex wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:

I see flocks of Worms on the horizon in this, granted you dont know the limiting of speed in training at present but even at current rates it only takes either a solid 4 months to achieve so say its 6 months with alphas, or a returning players dropping to alpha status.

This is done very quickly:
3x rocket launcher II with Scourge rage
Fed navy AB
CN Med shield ext
Stasis and scram II
DCU II
FN DDA

CDFE II
Anti EM II
Anti Therm II

Augmented Drones 330+ dps drop the DCU II and one of the mid slot utilities for another FN DDA cranked it upto 355 DPS
Small fleet of these say 12 you could drop so many of the drones for EC 300's and your still cranking out over 3600 DPS or keep all drone combat for a healthy 4200 DPS.

Speed 1100ms
9-11k ehp
Easy to switch damaged types.

You think this wont be a problem.


Yes. That would indeed be a possibility and I personally do not see a huge problem with that for following reasons: (1) high price - while I do not consider price a balancing factor (and neither do devs as far as I have seen) it is also not irrelevant thing either in everyday life of EVE, (2) the numbers are comparable to the current very restricted Alpha capabilities with the cruisers, (3) the setup has vulnerabilities which can be used to counter it with similar numbers but a bit cheaper fits for the pvp purposes, most notable ofc the ability to kill some drones and/or severy limit their effectivity by outrunning the worms and/or its drones, (4) if talking about my initial three post wall of text proposal specifically these worms would be unable to assign drones so it is not possible to easily abuse that swarm by running multiple clients simultaneously and have one or two "triggers" directing all that dps in half automated way. Ofc my initial proposal also consisted a suggestion to limit Alphas to max two simultaneous accounts logged in at the same time, if technically feasible. As far as I understand the dev answers here and elsewhere there might be some technical difficulties with that one though.


Actually this example worm fit is a very good example, in my opinion, why an unrestricted T1 frigate limited Alpha would be OK. It is actually competitive with T2 AF fits in some scenarios which is exactly one of the points I have been driving for. An AF fit that is comparable in its capabilities is somewhat cheaper than the reasonably pimp pirate hull, meaning that the Omega has advantage - because he has to grind for less time for achieving that than Alpha but Alpha can get close enough to have a good possibility of winning the engagement just at the greater time (grind) investment.

I believe such a worm fit would be fun to fly for Alphas. They would win some engagements, there is a significant amount of grind-time on line for them so they would probably get pretty good adrenaline rush out of it and if that is what they are after they would get hooked in EVE. A fast combat with small ships is one of the best things the EVE can offer for a pilot trying out EVE. There is A LOT of pilot individual skill involved, meaning a lot of potential to "git guud", the pilot can in general pick his/her engagements and is slippery enough to escape if Omegas bring overwhelming force while the setup has enough bite to punish anyone who thinks "lol its just dozen frigates".

I agree, its my worm fit almost ( i like deadspace kit though) or ishkurs, my point is that those worm pilots and i dont mean multiple accounts of 1 or 2 users i was referring to single people controlling them is all free, there is no need to sub to use them. Ive been playing for 11 years and ive never even used a capital ship. You got to find a happy medium but i think you have gone to far. I could unsub a few of my accounts and have just as much fun as i do subbed.

Imagine doing a roam with 15 people 12 worm pilots free and 3 paying - 2 logi cruisers and a ecm boat.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#1264 - 2016-09-08 16:10:12 UTC
Daylan Vokan wrote:

I agree, its my worm fit almost ( i like deadspace kit though) or ishkurs, my point is that those worm pilots and i dont mean multiple accounts of 1 or 2 users i was referring to single people controlling them is all free, there is no need to sub to use them. Ive been playing for 11 years and ive never even used a capital ship. You got to find a happy medium but i think you have gone to far. I could unsub a few of my accounts and have just as much fun as i do subbed.

Imagine doing a roam with 15 people 12 worm pilots free and 3 paying - 2 logi cruisers and a ecm boat.


Yes. The reason why I believe this would be fine is that in my opinion the theoretical possibility of reaching such levels would draw in more fresh players than the number of current Omegas un-subbing because they could have as much fun as they currently do if the T1 frigates could be piloted, in essence, unrestricted. The core point of my entire proposal is that being able to have "as much fun" as Omega can in a given niche (which is a frigate specific content in EVE) is better for player retention and for luring in new players than the current heavily limited hulls up to cruiser size with a racial lock for a character starter race.

Such a theoretical 15 man roam would be an outstanding success of the whole system!

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1265 - 2016-09-08 16:29:03 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:

I agree, its my worm fit almost ( i like deadspace kit though) or ishkurs, my point is that those worm pilots and i dont mean multiple accounts of 1 or 2 users i was referring to single people controlling them is all free, there is no need to sub to use them. Ive been playing for 11 years and ive never even used a capital ship. You got to find a happy medium but i think you have gone to far. I could unsub a few of my accounts and have just as much fun as i do subbed.

Imagine doing a roam with 15 people 12 worm pilots free and 3 paying - 2 logi cruisers and a ecm boat.


Yes. The reason why I believe this would be fine is that in my opinion the theoretical possibility of reaching such levels would draw in more fresh players than the number of current Omegas un-subbing because they could have as much fun as they currently do if the T1 frigates could be piloted, in essence, unrestricted. The core point of my entire proposal is that being able to have "as much fun" as Omega can in a given niche (which is a frigate specific content in EVE) is better for player retention and for luring in new players than the current heavily limited hulls up to cruiser size with a racial lock for a character starter race.

Such a theoretical 15 man roam would be an outstanding success of the whole system!

We seem to be poles apart on how to allure new players into subbing here, the discussion was fun though Lol
Josef Djugashvilis
#1266 - 2016-09-08 18:20:05 UTC
Cash for skills was mainly used by vets to dump unwanted skill points and did not lead to any great influx of new players, perhaps the idea of paying a sub then needing to fork out extra cash for skills did not have that much appeal to new players.

Who'd a thunk it?

If cash for skills had been successful CCP would not be offering this ham-strung version of 'free to play'

If 'inadequate' skill points are seen as the main sticking point for new players who want to experience all that that the game has to offer, then why not take the radical step of giving all players all the skill points?

This would change the game from a 'time-cash-sink' into one where player ingenuity is the primary skill.

We are on that slippery slope anyway, so for Pete's sake just get on with it.

The constant whittling away of the original game ethos is just annoying.

CCP cut to the end game and just do it!

This is not a signature.

Hiro Mune
Perkone
Caldari State
#1267 - 2016-09-08 20:10:52 UTC
So essentially:

You can't explore; no cloaking
You can't PVP; no tech 2 weaponry
PVE will be limited
Null sec and low sec will be impossible to go into...

Might as well stick with the subscription to actually enjoy the game!
Mikka johna Caboose
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1268 - 2016-09-08 21:09:38 UTC
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Mikka johna Caboose wrote:
Don't know if this as come up but what happens if say your in a stealth bomber in wormhole space and you go to alpha clone status
I've a friend that is potentially in that situation

Q: What happens if my subscription ends while I'm logged in, will I be converted to Alpha in the middle of a fight?

A: In these cases, you will remain an Omega until the next time you log out. We won't ever turn skills off during the middle of a session.


Thanks much appreciated Lol
Onkel Fysen
Annoying Monkeys
#1269 - 2016-09-08 21:39:36 UTC
I surely welcome a F2P-model in EVE like this to expand the playerbase, but please don't allow multiboxing at all. Multiboxing is the most damaging problem to the PVP model in this game already. The PVP-model is heart-racing as it is without everyone having to multibox to take part in small gang PVP.
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1270 - 2016-09-08 22:27:03 UTC
Hiro Mune wrote:
So essentially:

You can't explore; no cloaking
You can't PVP; no tech 2 weaponry
PVE will be limited
Null sec and low sec will be impossible to go into...

Might as well stick with the subscription to actually enjoy the game!


Yea it's basically current trial with more constraints and without time limit. For genuinly new players it's probably nice, for anyone else ... yea (putting aside all potential multiboxing / free alts issues aside ...).

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl

Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#1271 - 2016-09-09 03:52:29 UTC
Soltys wrote:
Hiro Mune wrote:
So essentially:

You can't explore; no cloaking
You can't PVP; no tech 2 weaponry
PVE will be limited
Null sec and low sec will be impossible to go into...

Might as well stick with the subscription to actually enjoy the game!


Yea it's basically current trial with more constraints and without time limit. For genuinly new players it's probably nice, for anyone else ... yea (putting aside all potential multiboxing / free alts issues aside ...).



Current subscribers would find uses for Alphas even if all they could do would be flying a shuttle and talking in local ;)

I just do not believe that what is currently on table for Alphas makes the genuinely fresh pilots to stay much longer than the longest done trials would (I.e., a bit above 50 days). At the very minimum the racial restriction should be lifted. Or CCP should make it crystal clear in the beginning that a pilot should roll 4 parallel Alpha accounts - one for each race. Because otherwise I believe there would be non-neglible number of fresh guys joining - figuring out that they would want to fly some other race few weeks down the road and going "screw this, I'm not gonna wait for another 2 weeks for these basic essential skills again to be able to do what I already do"

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1272 - 2016-09-09 04:35:45 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
Soltys wrote:
Hiro Mune wrote:
So essentially:

You can't explore; no cloaking
You can't PVP; no tech 2 weaponry
PVE will be limited
Null sec and low sec will be impossible to go into...

Might as well stick with the subscription to actually enjoy the game!


Yea it's basically current trial with more constraints and without time limit. For genuinly new players it's probably nice, for anyone else ... yea (putting aside all potential multiboxing / free alts issues aside ...).



Current subscribers would find uses for Alphas even if all they could do would be flying a shuttle and talking in local ;)

I just do not believe that what is currently on table for Alphas makes the genuinely fresh pilots to stay much longer than the longest done trials would (I.e., a bit above 50 days). At the very minimum the racial restriction should be lifted. Or CCP should make it crystal clear in the beginning that a pilot should roll 4 parallel Alpha accounts - one for each race. Because otherwise I believe there would be non-neglible number of fresh guys joining - figuring out that they would want to fly some other race few weeks down the road and going "screw this, I'm not gonna wait for another 2 weeks for these basic essential skills again to be able to do what I already do"


What the Hell, they can always sub too ya know.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

MrQuisno
Doomheim
#1273 - 2016-09-09 05:06:37 UTC
The idea is great here! But their should be a one time set up fee for all new accounts made. If you want to run about with more then 2 free accounts you should have to pay a extra pilot license.
Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1274 - 2016-09-09 07:16:28 UTC
Hiro Mune wrote:
So essentially:

You can't explore; no cloaking
You can't PVP; no tech 2 weaponry
PVE will be limited
Null sec and low sec will be impossible to go into...

Might as well stick with the subscription to actually enjoy the game!


So according to you the first 6 months you subscribe now you can't do much as you dont have the skills, access to the right modules and standing to do anything worth while, must be sad that the only way you can to anything is in an officer fit faction hull RollRollRoll
Geronimo McVain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1275 - 2016-09-09 07:28:55 UTC
It's telling that there are 2 dev-Blog in a row. Alpha/Omega and the end of exe-login. If there is no exe-login you can easily restrict a comp to JUST launch an Alpha and nothing else. This wouldn't hamper new players in any way and kill tons of abuses by vets.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1276 - 2016-09-09 07:54:24 UTC
Geronimo McVain wrote:
It's telling that there are 2 dev-Blog in a row. Alpha/Omega and the end of exe-login. If there is no exe-login you can easily restrict a comp to JUST launch an Alpha and nothing else. This wouldn't hamper new players in any way and kill tons of abuses by vets.

People use multiple PCs (physical or virtual). They need to do more (if possible) ... the "it is possible with trials today argument" is void here, because Alphas don't expire and are much more valuable to rectify the effort.

I'm my own NPC alt.

March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1277 - 2016-09-09 09:52:04 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
So...you place a bounty on me, right? What is to stop me (the player) from having my alt scan my character's ship, shoot me and collect the bounty?

What about system where bounty owner has to manually approve each payment?
Let's say i put bounty on someone. This sets flag (visible to anyone). Then when somebody presses the button and kills the target i get notification with killmail. Then i enter amount and press button and send ISK or don't.
And let's say people can see history of bounty contracts created by me (it can be made anonymous but linked to the character) with information about every bounty contract offered and killmails paid or not.

This allows me to check whether killmail looks legit or not. At least i can try to detect usage of alt.

This gives possible contractor to check whether previous bounties were paid or not and decide if kill worth effort.

Additionally this gives some protection from overinflated module/ship prices and gives overall control over the system to players. I see killmail value but i always can check real market price and set bounty accordingly. And if i'm greedy then in future i can find none of my contracts taken.

Thoughts?


So, I as an actual bounty hunter can expect to get screwed on a regular basis.

If you blindly take any bounty contract yes, you will end like any client of ISK doublers. However system provides you with some means to protect yourself. And it provides owner of bounty contract with some means to protect himself from alt-killing too.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Daylan Vokan
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1278 - 2016-09-09 09:58:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Daylan Vokan
Carniflex wrote:
CCP should make it crystal clear in the beginning that a pilot should roll 4 parallel Alpha accounts - one for each race. Because otherwise I believe there would be non-neglible number of fresh guys joining - figuring out that they would want to fly some other race few weeks down the road and going "screw this, I'm not gonna wait for another 2 weeks for these basic essential skills again to be able to do what I already do"

Or they think wow this is cool, If i sub i get access to everything and those shiny faction hulls to, You know the way it's designed to work to lure people in.

Doesn't matter how you try and not sugar coat something, Its designed for new players and not to entice already subbed to add copious amounts of alts in game.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1279 - 2016-09-09 11:28:25 UTC  |  Edited by: March rabbit
Teckos Pech wrote:
What the Hell, they can always sub too ya know.

They cannot (that's the main selling point of whole Alpha idea). Else we would not have this discussion.

Daylan Vokan wrote:
Hiro Mune wrote:
So essentially:

You can't explore; no cloaking
You can't PVP; no tech 2 weaponry
PVE will be limited
Null sec and low sec will be impossible to go into...

Might as well stick with the subscription to actually enjoy the game!


So according to you the first 6 months you subscribe now you can't do much as you dont have the skills, access to the right modules and standing to do anything worth while, must be sad that the only way you can to anything is in an officer fit faction hull RollRollRoll

Well.. It's CCP who removed learning skills (and set SP accumulation to maximum speed for everyone), it's CCP who increased training speed for starters, it's CCP who increased basic SP amount for starters, it's CCP who created special implants for starters....

Do you really think it was done because 'player can play right from the start' and not 'sit and wait for SPs'?

AFAIK it is general idea between CCP and players these days that the game is 'literally unplayable' without lots of SP.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Egsise
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1280 - 2016-09-09 14:11:01 UTC
I remember when I started Eve I knew it takes years to train the skills.
That was actually the biggest reason I started Eve, I wanted to play a game that isn't over in six months like majority of games today.
When I ask why someone doesn't play Eve is that they worry that it takes 25 years to train everything to max level,
and they could never catch those who have started earlier.

Most new players don't understand that the reason why they can't do mission X or win that pvp fight is that they
don't have corpmates who fly with them, not the lack of skills.

I'm not sure if this is covered so here's my opinion about multiboxing.
I think you should not be allowed to log in more than one alpha clone at the time.
The alpha clone is targeted to new players and they need to learn that if they need more than one ship, well they need friends then not multiple accounts what they use to solo for six months and then quit Eve because it's boring.

If an old player with multiple accounts wants to look what Eve is now,
well he doesn't need more than one account at the time for that or to sell assets to plex or just to chat with old corpmates.

You shouldn't be allowed to log in an alpha clone with omega clone(s).
You are not allowed to do it with trial accounts either.