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Dev Blog: Introducing Clone States & the Future of Access to EVE

First post First post First post
Author
bozalrea
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1321 - 2016-09-12 22:18:28 UTC
so, i'm asking myself how much time we'll wait before new 'one week plexs' will hit the market to squeeze out every last drop of money from the poorests eve players ? ^^
Some could like it :) ;
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1322 - 2016-09-12 22:21:08 UTC
bozalrea wrote:
so, i'm asking myself how much time we'll wait before new 'one week plexs' will hit the market to squeeze out every last drop of money from the poorests eve players ? ^^
Some could like it :) ;


Why are you assuming that Alpha players will be poor IRL? I know one friend who intends to give it a go and the reason he'll likely stay Alpha is RL just doesn't give him the time to justify the investment...from an income perspective he certainly could afford to go Omega though.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Namaan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1323 - 2016-09-13 03:02:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Namaan
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Namaan wrote:
Daylan Vokan wrote:
Namaan wrote:
I like the limits Alphas have, but there should be an incentive to Alphas to sub at least for one month, call it a Beta Clone or whatever.

I'm not sure what I would give this "beta" Maybe give them the limits of 2 Alphas, for example if you are Amarr, and you sub but fall back down to beta you will have the skill limits of a Amarr and Caldari pilot... Yes this will open up some pirate ships, but the power cap is still there, the player now has double the ships to choose from, and character faction choice still matters.

I dunno, just an idea... I resubed just so I could post here and prepare for Alpha state by selling off my stuff I won't be able to use, but... I will never sell my Garmur, that is my carrot.

What is the point in that though, they have the incentive now to sub. All your creating is a way for people to be able to extend there freeplay mode by paying 1 month and then be able to bypass the restrictions of the alpha state opening up more of the game for a 1 time payment. certainly does away with needing to sub.


They have incentive, but its still a case of all or nothing. Now it doesn't have to be what I suggested, but a little boost to those who tried, or who have tried I feel make that leaf of fair all that much easier.

Just as an example it could be as simple as some skill caps going from level 1 to 2, like the armour/shield resist skills.

As for me I'm happy to come back even if it stays as it is now, but I do want to see more come with me, and I'd like to see more old vets come back too, and I'd like to see people feel good about attempting a sub.

The old trial gave you 21 days and maybe 1.2 mill sp's - The freeplay mode gives you 5 mill sp's and no time cap - that is a boost in itself and your more focused on the skills you can use for those hulls now instead of them being wasted trying to get into something you would have no skills to fly properly.


Which I understand, what I'm getting at is a boost to help bring old vets back and to make trying Omega a sweeter deal... If the sub was a problem before there is little reason for most to sub again, but if you make 1 month worth it to try then CCP gets something, and maybe that easy taste will gain an actual full time sub... I personally don't care, but I know a few vets who don't have the time to justify a sub again due to life (not money), and the current Alphas aren't very appealing in current form for these guys that had sub for a year or more in the past.

I like the Limits Alphas have, but as I said before I do feel there should be a tier *slightly* higher for those that dropped from Omega.
Jadek Kin
Incorruptibles
#1324 - 2016-09-13 03:23:13 UTC
Has there been any mention of alpha clones having full access to the forums, or will they be treated like trial accounts in that regard? (limited to EVE New Citizens Q&A section)
Astrid Farnsworth
Broke and Famous
#1325 - 2016-09-13 04:34:18 UTC
Might be this was already answer but where goes my question: if I have several accounts that dont have character because they whore sold or transfer, could I the possibility to create a new character in alpha state?

"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics." - Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC (Commandant of the Marine Corps) noted in 1980**strong text**

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1326 - 2016-09-13 05:35:18 UTC
Astrid Farnsworth wrote:
Might be this was already answer but where goes my question: if I have several accounts that dont have character because they whore sold or transfer, could I the possibility to create a new character in alpha state?


I believe so, just have to let the sub expire would be my guess.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#1327 - 2016-09-13 08:10:16 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
DeODokktor wrote:
What about "Cerebral Accelerators"
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Cerebral_accelerator

This patch will, in essence, kill them.
Before they had a real value due to time savings against PLEX. Now with you being able to grind your first 4-5 months free then they will hold little to now real "value".

And has been asked and asked.
What about new player invites. Does clone states mean that there will no longer be a trial account, or will the trial account now be like a "plex" account during the trial?

If you have +5 implants, what will happen when the clone state changes.

Would it be possible to keep the "hours for plex" option in the accounts page.. This would be good for those players who say they need to log in to re-up their account, but do it without worrying about their ship status.. The penalty in place for this should mean that it would work for those players who want to log in but may need to cloak or whatever.


You actually need to read the blog. Most of your questions have been answered already.

As for accelerators they will still be useful for omegas and if my hunch is correct, only people who used them anyway were vets making alts or someone who bought a package off steam that gave you subbed time anyway


Actually none of my questions were answered in the dev blog.
Nothing about "Implants".
Nothing about "Invites".
Nothing about "Hours for PLEX". (It would be assumed this option is getting removed, but I give a valid reason why it shouldn't.)

And no, Accelerators will not be really be useful for anyone at the price point CCP makes the packages at. They would need to drop the package price that includes them by about $2. And yes, they are probably mainly used by Vets and those people who sometimes get them "free" in their packages.

But hey, thanks for referring me back to the blog. Unless there is some other blog that has a lot of updated info, my questions are not answered at all.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1328 - 2016-09-13 08:49:21 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
bozalrea wrote:
so, i'm asking myself how much time we'll wait before new 'one week plexs' will hit the market to squeeze out every last drop of money from the poorests eve players ? ^^
Some could like it :) ;


Why are you assuming that Alpha players will be poor IRL? I know one friend who intends to give it a go and the reason he'll likely stay Alpha is RL just doesn't give him the time to justify the investment...from an income perspective he certainly could afford to go Omega though.
So your friend who could according to you afford the sub, won't pay it but will be happy to long term experience part of what is available in Eve.

Is he too cheap to want to experience all Eve has to offer, or just wants something for free, even if it is subpar to what is available?

I suppose CCP asked themselves these sort of questions before announcing Alpha Clones as an option - Like, how much revenue will likely be generated from them. How much resources will hordes of these "free to play" accounts take away from paying customers (TIDI isn't going away anytime soon).

Your friend really doesn't give much hope to CCP's plan that Alpha Clones will lead to more subs, does it...

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#1329 - 2016-09-13 10:27:00 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

I suppose CCP asked themselves these sort of questions before announcing Alpha Clones as an option - Like, how much revenue will likely be generated from them. How much resources will hordes of these "free to play" accounts take away from paying customers (TIDI isn't going away anytime soon).


The EVE peak concurrent user record is what ... a little over 60 000? And we are currently sitting at approx 20k on your average day prime time and up to perhaps 40k-ish during the weekend prime time. So I'm not particularly worried about Alpha accounts causing "lag" for "paying customers" even if they at first might push the PCU a bit north of 100k during weekend prime time. Hell that number would be a HUGE success for the whole system. I personally suspect though, that we might not even pass the past PCU record during the first weekends after the Alpha release when it should be the hottest thing since sliced bread with everyone checking it out. But I'm hopeful it will be more successful than I am thinking it will.

What causes "lag" predominantly is putting huge amounts of clients in the same grid doing stuff that affects all the other clients in the grid. I.e., the classical "everything and kitchen sink" fleet engagement between major coalitions somewhere in the nullnull or lowsec where a titan took a wrong turn or pressed jump to instead of bridge to. In which vast majority of Alphas are unlikely to participate, considering how crippled they are as proposed currently.

Few hundred Ventures in a noob starter system trying to bump each other away from the last veldspar roid in the system are probably not going to be a heavy load on the server.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Arahantius Detache
Arahantius Detache Corporation
#1330 - 2016-09-13 11:21:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Arahantius Detache
Over the last 40years I've played more games than I can remember.

How many did I pay for?
EVERY single player game until F2P became a thing.

The biggest amount I paid to game? About $1000USD to play Entropia Universe in microtransactions.
It is an incredibly fun game even with the ridiculous RCE (real cash economy) attached.

Will people pay to play EVE now that a free option is available?
I really doubt it, it's just not a fun game compared to the many many games worth paying for.
I payed for this game due to my stupid oversight in subscription section.... stupid stupid me.
I play because I have a compulsion to get my money's worth.

I believe that many players jump between games at a whim and pay for a select few so that their gaming bill
isn't over budget. The primary reason for me continuing my drudge no longer exists. I can just log on whenever without having to use my PI alts now (which I find extremely dull). No more game job. Big smile

This is a perspective for CCP to ponder, the F2P aspect may just cause more damage than good considering how many elitists are getting cranky that they have to share their space with those the consider below themselves (unfair but seemingly common view).
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#1331 - 2016-09-13 15:26:57 UTC
I'm just screwing around in EFT and it seems Caldari and Minmatar Characters pretty much getting screwed. Not giving the caldari or minmatar drone skills really sucks for them.

Not many ships use both guns and missiles at the same time. But many if not most ships use drones along with the other weapons. This is a huge advantage for gallente and amarr.

Gnosis has less than half the dps for caldari or minmitar as it does for gallente or amarr.



Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Rin Aiko
CVT IND
#1332 - 2016-09-13 16:20:33 UTC
Cearain wrote:
I'm just screwing around in EFT and it seems Caldari and Minmatar Characters pretty much getting screwed. Not giving the caldari or minmatar drone skills really sucks for them.

Not many ships use both guns and missiles at the same time. But many if not most ships use drones along with the other weapons. This is a huge advantage for gallente and amarr.

Gnosis has less than half the dps for caldari or minmitar as it does for gallente or amarr.







Well, if they like Eve they. May want to plex the account.😉
Namaan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1333 - 2016-09-13 16:33:50 UTC
Alpha clones are not about getting more players to sub/plex, its about getting more players into the game... Sub/PLEX is just a bonus for CCP.
Absolute Intoleranto
Doomheim
#1334 - 2016-09-13 16:54:41 UTC
Arahantius Detache wrote:
This is a perspective for CCP to ponder, the F2P aspect may just cause more damage than good considering how many elitists are getting cranky that they have to share their space with those the consider below themselves (unfair but seemingly common view).


Basically they are leaving for no reason..

I do not have the right words for this kind of stupidity!
Namaan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1335 - 2016-09-13 17:04:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Namaan
Absolute Intoleranto wrote:
Arahantius Detache wrote:
This is a perspective for CCP to ponder, the F2P aspect may just cause more damage than good considering how many elitists are getting cranky that they have to share their space with those the consider below themselves (unfair but seemingly common view).


Basically they are leaving for no reason..

I do not have the right words for this kind of stupidity!


Indeed, Alphas are a reason to stay as Alphas need Omegas to see as much of EVE as possible, and having Alphas under their wing gives Omegas something more to do, plus having more voices on the coms always makes a day in space more enjoyable..
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#1336 - 2016-09-13 17:08:32 UTC
Rin Aiko wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I'm just screwing around in EFT and it seems Caldari and Minmatar Characters pretty much getting screwed. Not giving the caldari or minmatar drone skills really sucks for them.

Not many ships use both guns and missiles at the same time. But many if not most ships use drones along with the other weapons. This is a huge advantage for gallente and amarr.

Gnosis has less than half the dps for caldari or minmitar as it does for gallente or amarr.







Well, if they like Eve they. May want to plex the account.😉


Or just get gallente alts. Seriously with gallente industrial 1 and the drone skills this is looking bad.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Namaan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1337 - 2016-09-13 17:18:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Namaan
Cearain wrote:
Rin Aiko wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I'm just screwing around in EFT and it seems Caldari and Minmatar Characters pretty much getting screwed. Not giving the caldari or minmatar drone skills really sucks for them.

Not many ships use both guns and missiles at the same time. But many if not most ships use drones along with the other weapons. This is a huge advantage for gallente and amarr.

Gnosis has less than half the dps for caldari or minmitar as it does for gallente or amarr.







Well, if they like Eve they. May want to plex the account.😉


Or just get gallente alts. Seriously with gallente industrial 1 and the drone skills this is looking bad.


If you're looking for mostly PvP kinda, yeah... Caldari will be the best mission runners (Cal Gnosis does 3s with ease I'm told) and the Hookbill will be a respectable scramkite if Cals want to PvP, but lets be honest Alphas will more about wolf packs, not solo ninjas.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#1338 - 2016-09-13 18:43:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
I know not everything is set in stone and that is the reason for this post.

Based on the skills they gave so far Gallente alphas looks like they will be either more powerful, or much more powerful than all the other alphas.

First there is the issue of drone skills. Gallente and Amarr both have much better drone skills than minmatar or caldari alphas. Caldari and minmatar have gun and missile skills. Which seems balanced unless you play eve. People rarely if ever use both guns and missiles on the same ship. But they almost always use both guns and drones. When you look at a gnosis this means Amarr and Gallente will have about 2xs the dps as caldari or minmatar. This is a huge disparity.

Second is the gallente industrial skill. CCP has not said what will happen with pi. If you have an omega clone set up multiple pi systems what happens when your subscription lapses? CCP has not directly answered this but they have given some vague notions that they may leave them running. If you have ever tried to extract pi skills you know ccp doesn't really have a handle on what pi you have running. Ok so *if* they allow pi to continue to be farmed (or can't prevent it for technical reasons) then the epithal will be a huge benefit for gallente.

I started my characters years ago with the assurance that race didn't matter. The 2 things I mention above matter allot.

What can be done? Lots of things.

Eg.,
1) allow characters to choose the racial skills they want as an alpha. or

2) give all races the same drone bonuses (either the lower ones or the better ones whatever)

3) Don't allow alphas to continue pi set ups that only omegas can start. or

4) if you do then at least let all races have access to the epithal.

There are plenty of other things that can address these problems but I just want to make sure ccp is ahead of the game on this.

edit: feel free to mention in this thread any other race imbalance issues.

2nd edit:
Namaan wrote:

If you're looking for mostly PvP kinda, yeah... Caldari will be the best mission runners (Cal Gnosis does 3s with ease I'm told) and the Hookbill will be a respectable scramkite if Cals want to PvP, but lets be honest Alphas will more about wolf packs, not solo ninjas.


Cal alpha gnosis gets half the dps of a gallente alpha gnosis. The gallente alpha gnosis should be able to do level 4s as it gets about 530 dps.

I don't think the hookbills will all of a sudden start looking better than comets when alphas come out. Start looking at eft for yourself here is a skeleton of a gnosis fit:

[Gnosis, gallente alpha]
AE-K Compact Drone Damage Amplifier
AE-K Compact Drone Damage Amplifier
Vortex Compact Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Vortex Compact Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Damage Control II
[empty low slot]

[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

250mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
[empty high slot]
250mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M


Federation Navy Hammerhead x5


The eft clones skill characters can be found here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=491949&find=unread

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Namaan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1339 - 2016-09-13 19:28:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Namaan
I said Hookbills will be respectable, not the best. I know Gal has best DPS, but Cal Gnosis will do 4s much easier than Gal due to range and tank.

As I said Alpha pvp will be more about groups, 2 Cal Alphas in Condors, or a Condor & Kestrel will get work done for easy to get ships. The lower drone skills does hurt the Caramel, but the Moa is pretty good with Alpha skills.
Ashterothi
Aideron Robotics
#1340 - 2016-09-13 19:41:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashterothi
Cearain wrote:
I know not everything is set in stone and that is the reason for this post.

Based on the skills they gave so far Gallente alphas looks like they will be either more powerful, or much more powerful than all the other alphas.

First there is the issue of drone skills. Gallente and Amarr both have much better drone skills than minmatar or caldari alphas. Caldari and minmatar have gun and missile skills. Which seems balanced unless you play eve. People rarely if ever use both guns and missiles on the same ship. But they almost always use both guns and drones. When you look at a gnosis this means Amarr and Gallente will have about 2xs the dps as caldari or minmatar. This is a huge disparity.

Second is the gallente industrial skill. CCP has not said what will happen with pi. If you have an omega clone set up multiple pi systems what happens when your subscription lapses? CCP has not directly answered this but they have given some vague notions that they may leave them running. If you have ever tried to extract pi skills you know ccp doesn't really have a handle on what pi you have running. Ok so *if* they allow pi to continue to be farmed (or can't prevent it for technical reasons) then the epithal will be a huge benefit for gallente.

I started my characters years ago with the assurance that race didn't matter. The 2 things I mention above matter allot.

What can be done? Lots of things.

Eg.,
1) allow characters to choose the racial skills they want as an alpha. or

2) give all races the same drone bonuses (either the lower ones or the better ones whatever)

3) Don't allow alphas to continue pi set ups that only omegas can start. or

4) if you do then at least let all races have access to the epithal.

There are plenty of other things that can address these problems but I just want to make sure ccp is ahead of the game on this.

edit: feel free to mention in this thread any other race imbalance issues.


First off before anything else it is important to remember that having a character of a certain race now is a commitment. In this new world there will be no reason to not have all four races as alpha if you so want to. I for one plan to start 4 new accounts to have one of each. So the notion of having to balance them is irrelevant. If the Gnosis flys better with Gallente pilots then dedicated alpha pilots who want to use Gnosis will just start as Gallente. The race never mattered before, and it stops mattering if you ever decide to go Omega.

As far as better drone skills, most T1 cruiser down stick pretty tight to the racial theme.

The Bantam has 5m3 drone capacity, which is really just to get on kills, and isn't part of it "purpose"
The Heron gets 15 mbit bandwidth but again isn't a combat ship, most of the time those will be ewar drones, or killing defenseless targets
The Griffin gets 5m3 and again, isn't really the point of the ship, and you have plenty of combat capability and disabling solo enemies.
Osprey has 20m3 and is the same as the Bantam
Blackbird has 10m3 and is the same as the Griffin

Of these the only one even potentially impacted by having only Drone III is the Osprey

Interestingly this argument affects the Caracle and the Moa, notably the combat cruisers for the Caldari.
https://o.smium.org/loadout/103238

Less than 10% of the total damage is the drones, and even then a max skilled Caldari pilot will field the full 2 drones the Caracal has. This makes the actual damage difference from the drones to be almost negligible. However for ships bonused for Drones (such as Amarr and Gallente) the difference between having or not having those skills can be the difference between not having Missile Projectile or Missile Bombardment.

As far as PI, I can only appeal to the above note. For that edge case, I would recommend you use the best tool for the job. Assuming they can even manage their PI as alphas.