EVE General Discussion

Im talking about incursion fleets, don't try to muddy the argument by now trying to reference different ships to what you quoted.


That is in an argument over EHP, not in argument over logi rep amount. Again, stop trying to confuse the two arguments to deliberately try and sow confusion.




Feel free to show me a 150k-500k ehp svipul.

Shock horror you decide to go for the most broken ship class in the game, the t3C.

My 90k EHP is based upon heavy assault cruisers, a realistic number. A number that brings the skiff into the same range as mission battleships and marauders.

Are Svipuls more common than buffer T3C amongst the wardeccers?

Svipuls are more common everywhere, hence why they get called cancer. All of the T3s are horribly overpowered so we should never be basing anything off their stats.

The top 10 most used ships for the past 7 days for Vendetta Mercenary Group:

Top Ships

Proteus
Proteus 120
Phobos 89
Stratios 70
Legion 67
Dramiel 44
Loki 40
Machariel 35
Svipul 30
Ishtar 24
Broadsword 15

Il confirm that just to stop the stupid argument. why gank a T2 fit skiff when you can blap a deadspace fit mission runner lol

I say give the skiff 80-90k ehp with a t2 fit.

Bears say thats not enough.

I point out its the same as mission battleship have

They say the marauder gets big reps

I say you can get that by fleeting up and using the new logi mack.

They say you cant do that in highsec because nasty people could then attack.

I point out incursion fleets and pvp fleet get by just fine under these mechanics.

You enter and start going on about station campers in max tank t3c.


This is how the convo just went, me answering their concerns and them bringing up more pathetic excuses that everyone else has adapted to. In the end, these people are arguing that they are literally too stupid to fit the skiff for themselves, to cowardly to fly a ship with 80k EHP and too shallow minded to think outside of the fraction of barges that get killed by gankers.

No. Wbat is happening is argueing over details ...
... to make you give up.

Their goal is to make you give up, which to them feels like a win.
The topic itself is completely irrelevant. Has been for a few pages already.

As long as they distract you and keep you from making the proper thread in f&i ...
... they win. But i'm starting to think you don't even want to do that ...
... which makes the whole activity here a co plete waste of time.

You need to up your troll-fu, you are falling for it for days now.
You yourself will appreciate it later on when you just listen to me.

Sorry.

Baltec's examples are fine and on-target; there's nothing to throw back in his face. He (rightly) pointed out that multi-billion-isk ships, often carrying expensive modules, that provide very nice killmails, do just fine avoiding ganks with the EHP allotment they have.

In an ironic twist, you yourself pointed out a massive active tank bonus and inferred that was a reason they don't get ganked as often, when that is not the case. For someone proclaiming stupid examples, you sure are living in a glass house methinks.

But your post also reveals a profound misunderstanding at the issues at play here. Yourself and Dracvlad could do well to sit back and think about what is really going on because you both seemed to have missed the point to such an extent I have to quote Solecist Project's signature quoting Tippia.

. I hope I formatted that correctly.

But I'm not here merely to be condescending, I also try to help so I don't have to witness another bout of posting the likes of which you and Dracvlad just subjected us to.

The short and very simple version of a much longer point is this: EHP is the last resort of a miner who is is unaware. If you are aware, you can get away with almost no EHP and never have trouble. If you are unaware, no amount of EHP is ever going to be enough.


You know why mission runners don't get ganked as often? Because they pay attention. It's not active tank, because a cheap batch of Tornadoes disagree with any assertion you thought you had about active tank. It's not even EHP as much as you think (keywords there), because it provides an obstacle you have to overcome, but it can easily be done if you wanted to. Mission runners are actively engaged with the game. That's literally the extent of it.

It's not a mystery or a philosophical debate. It doesn't need a sermon (as you put it). It's just a difference in the way people interact with the game. I'm not even claiming one way or the other is right, "more" right, "correct", "the way devs intended", or somesuch nonsense. It's not even me advocating for Code philosophies, it's merely a fact of the game. Mining is boring.

Miners simply want more EHP as a substitute for paying attention to the game. I don't blame them either. I used to mine. It is terminally boring. But you can't fix bad gameplay mechanics with a bandaid solution like padding EHP to prevent people from having consequences of not engaging with the game. If you can't pay even the most basic attention to the 200-million-isk vessel you field, you don't have any rights to complain about it getting blown up.

Even some miners have asked on the forums for more interactive mining. If there were some way to grant their wish, most of their ganker troubles would literally vanish overnight. Because then they could justify staring at the screen for hours like mission runners or PvPers do, because the game is interacting back with them. And they would be aware. But mining in this game is quite like being a security guard who simply stares at video feed monitors. There's only so much people can take before their attention lapses. And I don't blame them. This wasn't their design. They didn't make this. This isn't their fault..

The blame here is squarely on the mechanics of mining, not on the miners, and not on the gankers either. Both are playing the game equally, and as equals.

Mining needs to be balanced around the yields needed to fuel the economy. That's it. No skill or role bonus should ever substitute a pilot's responsibility to know how the game works or let him isolate himself in a vast, single-shard, fully-PvP MMORPG.

So stop making claims about "moving goalposts". The goalposts aren't being moved. Baltec is pointing out the folly of the EHP argument. EHP isn't the problem; the game mechanics are the problem because they discourage being at the keyboard for stretches of time while your ship is out in space. EHP does, however, become a problem in a game like this if it helps prevent you from being interdictable while not even engaged with the game.

Everyone has to be interdictable. What should separate the wheat from the chaff (am I using that axiom correct? I'm not completely familiar with it) is people's awareness, knowledge of the game & mechanics, and initiative. Having the Great Wall of China as EHP with Concord to cover you, circumvents that and allows behavior that is ultimately detrimental to yourself and your game experience.

I think you have missed many of the more subtle elements of the ongoing discussion. That is fair enough, as it has spanned many threads now, this is merely the latest one.

There are more than 2 sides to this discussion, despite what you seem to think - and I'm a lot closer to Baltec's side on this issue than Dracvlad's (ironically enough)...

However Baltec has a tendency to post examples which are either entirely unrelated to the points he is trying to make (as I said, apples and oranges may be the same size, but they aren't the same) - or he tends to simply *make up* statistics to favour his own viewpoint. And I dunno...I enjoy poking holes in such flimsy, ridiculous arguments - even if I agree with his core argument.


I think the primary problem that most people are suffering from here is thinking that this argument is relevant to anything or has any hope of solving anything... None of the sides are even listening to the others, so there is no possible chance of changing anybody's minds here... And CCP isn't reading this **** - they *might* at best skim it briefly just to confirm it is the same old garbage being repeated yet again.

While I do try to remain factually accurate, and unfortunately may have slipped across the line into trolling and used a few weak examples myself here...I think I did better than you give me credit for - if you actually *read* what I wrote, and pay attention. But ultimately this entire argument is, as Solecist stated, a pointless waste of time... The sooner you accept that, the happier you will be