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Update on Shadow of the Serpent Event

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Author
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#21 - 2016-07-07 10:56:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Edward Olmops
CCP Affinity wrote:
Serenol Marwysgar wrote:
I've been disappointed that of the couple dozen missions I've completed, I've not gotten any mining missions since the event first went live. The Serpentis Shipyard one seems to be on infinite loop.

Also be nice if missions didn't expire once started. Hate to lose progress because RL keeps me from logging in. Or alternatively, I also had the thought that a progressive system might work better for those with intermittent play and won't penalize someone who grinds missions out - progressive rewards. If a mission is clear 5 Serp Shipyards for 500 points, each site is 100 points. If I complete 3/5, it'd be nice to get 300 when the new mission resets. If I'm lucky I get an hour or two to play and it's not a lot of time for the reward thresholds.


We decided to have the Serpentis shipyard one always available as a challenge so you could always guarantee points from that site. I would love to hear your feedback on that.


I feel we don't get as much fun out of the event as you put effort into it.

The current construction leads to endless grinding of Shipyards for various reasons:
- the mission is always available and guarantees points.
- missions for the other event sites are much rarer PLUS you don't get them because after a few missions all other 3 mission slots will be blocked by "I don't want to do this"-missions.
- it's the only event mission I have seen that has loot
- it can be blitzed and thus has the highest points/hour
- since everyone else is also running Shipyards, there is a fair chance that warping into a site will complete it even faster just because someone else already did half the work
- it is among the simplest missions. Some missions require you to change ships. To do something in a frigate, to mine or to scan requires to head back to base. This GREATLY reduces points/hour. I once tried to complete 5 DED sites.... took hours to find them. I don't even want to get started about completing an incursion.

Variety is great. Nudging people to try something new because it pops up in the Scope Network is a great idea.
But here it utterly fails.
If I head out with the goal of finding out whats in the precious boxes, I will always and ultimatively maximize reward points per hour. Period.
We are talking about 30-50 hours to complete the task and get the gold container, so everything inefficient hast be ignored (I cant play 24-7), despite it might have been a new and fun challenge.
So if you want to promote Mining/Drifter kills/DED sites/incursions, the reward points/hour should be HIGHER or at least in the same ballpark as for grinding Shipyards. And that is including reshipping and preparations.
Which they are not atm. Scanning and running 5 DED sites took me like 2 hours and yielded 500 reward points whereas Shipyards easily yield >1000 reward points per hour.

This is why the event consists almost entirely of doings hundreds of Shipyards... which makes it unnecessarily boring and wastes a lot of potential (since you have designed a lot of different sites and tasks).
We just do not get to play the other sites properly.

Not sure whether this is something that can be fixed easily, but one idea would be to change the "permanent" quest every week or so. This could even be related to a storyline of the event
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#22 - 2016-07-07 11:21:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Sarmatiko wrote:

Maybe you could give some practical advices about Drifter killing, especially for EVE newbros?
How one could kill Drifter solo, let's say in T1 cruiser/BC (something PVE designer would expect new player will use in this event)? Or it was designed specifically as suicide bait for unexperienced players?

New players don't solo kill a Drifter. Experienced players have the choice between a super tanked BS, there are a number of marauder fits, and a rattlesnake & Navy Scorpian fit that can solo drifters, or use a T1 frigate to strip the overshield, then whatever you want to kill the drifter after it's used it's doomsday on the T1 frigate.
If you have friends prepared to help you finish the challenge it becomes easier since you get T1 logi frigs to support you also.

While I haven't been doing the challenges, the fact only the 'owning' player gets credit for the kill seems a problem as it runs counter to EVE's normal philosophy of encouraging group play where possible.
Mellisa Cameltoe
Spartan Vanguard
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#23 - 2016-07-07 11:42:47 UTC
Love the event to bad that 90% of the time i have missions like kill 50/10/5 drifter battleships. The only way to actualy make it is to farm like a maniac the serpentis shipyards sites.
Circumstantial Evidence
#24 - 2016-07-07 12:41:01 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
StarLite wrote:
What kind of loot are we talking about for the BC NPC's?
Is it the standard Serpentis BC loot table or specific event rewards?
This will be standard NPC loot, not event specific this time around. Definitely something we will action for next event!
Um... standard NPC loot, NO chance for Serpentis or Angel faction modules? If so, this sounds suspiciously underwhelming, and not the treasure hunt I was hoping for. I don't expect faction modules to drop every time, but we need to have a chance to see an Angel / Serpentis faction commander NPC, that type of loot chance, to help drive interest on a per-site basis.
Tyrrax Thorrk
Guiding Hand Social Club
#25 - 2016-07-07 12:45:24 UTC
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
CCP Affinity wrote:
StarLite wrote:
What kind of loot are we talking about for the BC NPC's?
Is it the standard Serpentis BC loot table or specific event rewards?
This will be standard NPC loot, not event specific this time around. Definitely something we will action for next event!
Um... standard NPC loot, NO chance for Serpentis or Angel faction modules? If so, this sounds suspiciously underwhelming, and not the treasure hunt I was hoping for. I don't expect faction modules to drop every time, but we need to have a chance to see an Angel / Serpentis faction commander NPC, that type of loot chance, to help drive interest on a per-site basis.


it's a completely pointless change, but hey maybe next event will be better
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
Hell's Kitchen.
#26 - 2016-07-07 12:45:25 UTC
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
CCP Affinity wrote:
StarLite wrote:
What kind of loot are we talking about for the BC NPC's?
Is it the standard Serpentis BC loot table or specific event rewards?
This will be standard NPC loot, not event specific this time around. Definitely something we will action for next event!
Um... standard NPC loot, NO chance for Serpentis or Angel faction modules? If so, this sounds suspiciously underwhelming, and not the treasure hunt I was hoping for. I don't expect faction modules to drop every time, but we need to have a chance to see an Angel / Serpentis faction commander NPC, that type of loot chance, to help drive interest on a per-site basis.


why do you NEED to have a faction commander?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Tyrrax Thorrk
Guiding Hand Social Club
#27 - 2016-07-07 13:26:21 UTC
can't get hard without one, duh
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2016-07-07 13:26:51 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
CCP Affinity wrote:
StarLite wrote:
What kind of loot are we talking about for the BC NPC's?
Is it the standard Serpentis BC loot table or specific event rewards?
This will be standard NPC loot, not event specific this time around. Definitely something we will action for next event!
Um... standard NPC loot, NO chance for Serpentis or Angel faction modules? If so, this sounds suspiciously underwhelming, and not the treasure hunt I was hoping for. I don't expect faction modules to drop every time, but we need to have a chance to see an Angel / Serpentis faction commander NPC, that type of loot chance, to help drive interest on a per-site basis.


why do you NEED to have a faction commander?


Because without PHAT L00T, it's obviously not worth his time running.
Tyrrax Thorrk
Guiding Hand Social Club
#29 - 2016-07-07 13:28:25 UTC
honestly all of those sites should have a small chance of spawning a faction npc, just like asteroid belts do, then there would actually be a reason to do them even without a quest active
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#30 - 2016-07-07 14:25:40 UTC
Sarmatiko wrote:
CCP Affinity wrote:
I agree, we should have provided an option to cancel challenges you do not wish to complete. The challenge allocation is entirely random, although I can understand how it would feel very frustrating to end up in a position where you have 3 challenges you do not wish to complete and your only option is to do them anyway or wait out the timer. Unfortunately, for this event, there will be no quick fix for this. However, I am currently working on a redesign and this is one of the big issues I will be addressing for the next event.

Thank you for answer. Sadly you completely avoided Drifter question. Sad

Maybe you could give some practical advices about Drifter killing, especially for EVE newbros?
How one could kill Drifter solo, let's say in T1 cruiser/BC (something PVE designer would expect new player will use in this event)? Or it was designed specifically as suicide bait for unexperienced players?


I'm sorry, killing Drifters is not for newbros. Something about them one-shotting poorly tanked carriers.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2016-07-07 14:29:00 UTC
The sites and event itself are not less or more fun than the previous ones, it's the usual PvE grind. What made me stop after 10000 points and bronze is the very bad ISK/h relation. The regular rewards are just not worth the time you need to sink into it, and the good loot is so rare, that it's not relevant (did about 90 shipyards and got only one low-grade implant worth 4m, plus 150 processors for 120m). The implant was worth about 120m, and the rest was garbage. Time effort was ~8h over several evenings, which comes out about ~30M ISK/h ... you can get more with highsec mining or basically with any other active profession Ugh.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Circumstantial Evidence
#32 - 2016-07-07 15:16:45 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
why do you NEED to have a faction commander?
Because without PHAT L00T, it's obviously not worth his time running.
It doesn't need to be a faction commander NPC, but if some of the BC's are merely dropping ordinary loot, it misses the point. I suggested a faction commander because it would be simple to implement, vs making a custom loot table. Knowing there's a chance at something worthwhile in the can vs ordinary rat loot, made previous event sites much more interesting, and drove all kinds of player interaction that is not happening with the new event reward scheme.

(And when it came to "adverse interaction," previous event sites were popping up so frequently that you could decide to let faster players have the loot or site, knowing another would come along shortly. Or you could get irritated. I saw wrecks left by some players who came out of lowsec, into highsec pockets, probably with safeties still off. Perhaps not why you think: A player was camping near his own loot-drop can... just waiting.)
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2016-07-07 15:29:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
Another point, having the loot free for all makes it more or less a highsec only event. The previous events encouraged lowsec and wormholes because loot stealing in highsec was risky (if you were just for the loot). Also giving points to everyone on grid creates an advantage to crowded areas with lots of people running and triggering sites, again highsec. Sometimes it was three systems in a row, saw shipyard, warped in, got points warped out, next ...

I'm my own NPC alt.

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#34 - 2016-07-07 15:31:03 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:

I agree, we should have provided an option to cancel challenges you do not wish to complete. The challenge allocation is entirely random, although I can understand how it would feel very frustrating to end up in a position where you have 3 challenges you do not wish to complete and your only option is to do them anyway or wait out the timer. Unfortunately, for this event, there will be no quick fix for this. However, I am currently working on a redesign and this is one of the big issues I will be addressing for the next event.

I got two of these and thought, not too bad, Seekers are listed as a a type sleeper, at least when you right click on them and look at "remove from overview". So I went and killed one, and got no credit.

What? I killed a sleeper, and got no credit?

CCP Affinity, you can make the sleeper challenges much more acceptable if all sleeper ship types were counted.

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Frozen fanfiction

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#35 - 2016-07-07 15:33:36 UTC
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
Um... standard NPC loot, NO chance for Serpentis or Angel faction modules? If so, this sounds suspiciously underwhelming, and not the treasure hunt I was hoping for. I don't expect faction modules to drop every time, but we need to have a chance to see an Angel / Serpentis faction commander NPC, that type of loot chance, to help drive interest on a per-site basis.


I wouldn't expect much this time. But in future events i hope they will have loot in mind from the start.

I suggest adding a chance that a roaming npc will be a bad ass with a good loot drop. And loot drops for sites could include the reward we are trying to collect. I.e ships drop extra microprocessors.

On a side note, how about adding roaming npc's to d-scan?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Blade Darth
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#36 - 2016-07-07 15:35:25 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Time effort was ~8h over several evenings, which comes out about ~30M ISK/h ... you can get more with highsec mining or basically with any other active profession Ugh.
Fun/ h also counts, I had much fun flying a 60 dps rookie frig and warping out from the combat site in structure...

And than not so much fun going 100 jumps to grind shipyards (could not find the other sites, maybe got 2 of each, so they expire) for almost no reward (prolly lost isk on ammo). Got couple thousand points, so i'm only 10.000 jumps and 200 shipyards away from the bronze reward thats worth 30m isk. Eh.

<./salt>
Dantelion Shinoni
The Black Squad
#37 - 2016-07-07 17:46:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Dantelion Shinoni
Tipa Riot wrote:
Another point, having the loot free for all makes it more or less a highsec only event. The previous events encouraged lowsec and wormholes because loot stealing in highsec was risky (if you were just for the loot). Also giving points to everyone on grid creates an advantage to crowded areas with lots of people running and triggering sites, again highsec. Sometimes it was three systems in a row, saw shipyard, warped in, got points warped out, next ...


This is the point I really wish will be heavily considered for the next event.

The last events got people out and flying both in low-sec, wormholes, and null, by giving those zones some sites that were exclusives to them. This caused people to go out of their way and enter lower security space in the hope of better loot, result -> more kills, more content.

This event? Not so much. The sites are available everywhere, and since it is the points from completion that matter most, high-sec has a clear advantage over other zones.

So yeah, whatever you do next time, please do consider that good ol' risk-reward thing, it giving no advantages to low-sec pretty much killed the event for me.
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#38 - 2016-07-07 18:11:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Edward Olmops
CCP Affinity wrote:

I agree on the expiry, ideally we would have a way to remove a certain number of challenges per day that you did not want to participate in and the others would remain. This time around, we decided to have the 3 day expiry so no one would be left in a state where they had only challenges they didn't wish to complete or had tried and were unable to do. You're right, we definitely need to reconsider the multiple sites per reward.

Thank you for your feedback, it's much appreciated.


How about a button:
"pay X reward points to reroll this mission"?
(meaningful choices and so on...)

Also interesting would be if the agents start paying more if a lot of players declines a certain mission (indicates it might be underpaid).

Combination of both:
pay X reward points to get rid of mission Y.
X go into a pool.
Next time the reward for the next player will be higher and the difference is paid from the pool.
(already sort of complicated though)
darkezero
Special Unit 17
#39 - 2016-07-07 18:17:37 UTC
I'm wondering if the point payouts are fixed relative to the job, or some other factor? I've currently got one job to kill 5 drifters to receive 1000 points, and another to kill 5 drifters in a cruiser for 500 points.

also, I'm wondering if overlapping jobs could apply to both. If I kill 5 drifters in a cruiser, should it also apply to the other kill 5 drifters as well, or is it intentional that they do not apply equally?
Xan Pendragon
Transcendere
#40 - 2016-07-07 18:39:07 UTC
Surprised no one has posted about challenge completions that aren't logged. I noticed this after a few days at the beginning. At one time 5 completed Serpentis shipyards led to only 1 being logged. I contacted support and was told that this was known about and had been fixed. It hadn't as I had a few more through the next few days. I've submitted 3 bug reports and they've all been closed without there being a resolution. This included the last, which was made in response to a request to state which challenges I'd had problems with. This was closed without any comment/feedback being given. So, I'm curious why a known issue hasn't led to a clear explanation, including, perhaps, getting back some of the lost completions. Hasn't anyone else encountered this issue?