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Trimmed for post length. Probably going to bow out of this thread since the changes have dropped. Pleasure discussing this with you though, even if we don't see eye to eye.

I guess the biggest reason I disagree here is because I see a lot of the same arguments being used against Svipuls applying to the initial Citadel release of a Carrier. While an organized group, with a specialized fleet comp, and experienced pilots can certainly hunt down and kill solo Carriers under the old changes anyone outside of those groups kind of ends up as camping-Carrier fodder. Solo players, roaming gangs not equipped for Carrier killing, and people trying to PvE in Low and Null who previously would have been hunted by those other groups all just sort of die to a solo-camping-Carrier on a gate. How is that not just as easy of a kill as the kiting Svipul who can just run away from anything he can't easily tackle and kill?

I'm not saying I think Svipuls are good for the game, quite the opposite, but I think any counters to them should come from within the sub-cap meta and not from Capitals, and especially not at the expense of a lot of other types of PvP.

The reason I think Svipuls haven't been balanced yet, while Carriers are getting significant swinging changes, is because Svipuls (and a lot of smaller ships in general) are down in a much more crowded meta-space, where if something gets nerfed too hard it doesn't so much solve the problem as just transfer it onto the next best thing. We saw this was AFs when the T3Ds came out, so finding a place where T3Ds and AFs are both useful and fun to fly is a lot trickier than jiggling around Carriers until they get to a pretty good place, because Carriers are doing something unique up at the top end of the spectrum and there's a ton of room between Battleships, Dreads, and Supers that they can occupy without stepping on toes.



Not really a lot I can say here. You're pretty clearly salty and you're certainly not being terribly respectful. Also if "pedantic" isn't an insult I'm not sure what meets your definition of the term...

Anyways, you don't need a huge sample size to get an indication of where things are heading. From there you can test, look at where things are likely to go, and make a decision. If I had to guess CCP probably didn't have a lot of hard fleet data to go off of, but they did have the CSM and a lot of in-house Capital pilots and FCs and went "uh, we may have made these things too strong..." and decided to nerf them before people spent trillions of ISK on new fleet doctrines.

That's all speculation though, just like most of your post about the potential outcome of these changes.

Also for reference releasing beta features is perfectly professional and becoming more and more common in Software and Game Development as the importance of early and through user-feedback from real-world use-cases becomes more recognized. As long as you aren't forced to use a beta feature then there's nothing unprofessional about including them in a production product release.

Lastly it's kind of interesting to contrast your feedback and Vic's. You're both reacting negatively but Vic seems to think these changes will be good for Nano-gangs, while you seem to think Carriers with support will still wreck them. Personally I think Vic has a better case for his speculation than you do, but that's me.



The main attack still applies fine to Fighters (better than it used to, actually), and there is also a second set of Light Fighters (which weren't touched by these changes) that have an attack specifically for killing other Fighters which isn't terribly effective vs actual ships.



HAWs are a lot easier to counter, and have a lot more counters, than Light Fighters nuking small ships off the grid easily and effortlessly.

If you don't want posts getting removed then read and apply the forum rules...

The nerf does seem a bit ham-fisted. Too much, I think.

Aaaand, if network sensor array has been this heavily nerfed it should not have such high cap cost.

His English seems a bit wacky, but I think that's precisely what he's trying to convey. Also, without diving into EvEmon to check for exact numbers, I'm pretty sure you'd need more than one full year to adequately fly a carrier. Drone support skills are a bugger, and there's a lot of them, and they're time-consuming.

The ISD don't remove posts for content, if they did this thread would be three pages long. In short it wasn't what you said it was how you said it...

For reference, several others in this thread espoused similar views to yours and didn't get their posts removed, because they weren't ranting and insulting the devs and other players.

PvP videos on Youtube aren't a particularly good source for anything, because people rarely post losses or bad fights, they post things that will look impressive, attract views, or make them look good.

I'm not denying anything, Light Fighters are still clearly an anti-Subcap weapon, they just don't nuke Cruisers and smaller off the field instantly before they can respond now, the same as HAWs. As you yourself have pointed out, no one is complaining about HAWs and I don't see anyone saying they're worthless either.


His English seems a bit wacky, but I think that's precisely what he's trying to convey. Also, without diving into EvEmon to check for exact numbers, I'm pretty sure you'd need more than one full year to adequately fly a carrier. Drone support skills are a bugger, and there's a lot of them, and they're time-consuming.[/quote]

Last I checked it takes around a year and a half to get a Carrier or Dread to what most would consider a respectable level from a brand new blank character. Though for most looking to fly a Carrier on a main account it ends up being more like 2 years because while focused Drone skills are nice you pretty much need gun or missile skills to earn ISK along the way, as well as other non-T1 ship hulls or other races' hulls.

well let them see a couple weeks where carriers are not being used , Then maybe they will get the idea..I personaly do not see how a bunch of ants can kill a elephant. However this is eve and anything is possible

After the changes, I can no longer see my fighters trajectory:

Like they have a blue line qhen approaching, or a red when attacking towards the target.

Anyone getting the same thing and can I enable it again?

It's the same thing as bumping a freighter how does a small ship do damage to a freighter and not to it's self ?? 90% of those ships should be dead due to the bumping.. some logic went out the window when dev's are building game. most ships don't get hurt when bumped

Please show me a battleship that has 75,000 PG (T1 Capital Shield Extender).
Even the Regolith (62,500 PG) - Which requires the least fitting, WILL NOT fit any battleship, even with 3 T2 Ancillary Current Routers.

Have I been missing something? Like a new Battleship that can get at least 3 times the maximum PG of any existing Battleship.

Too much Fighter Nerf !