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[118.6] Capital Balancing

First post First post First post
Author
Szchyactszky
Perkone
Caldari State
#741 - 2016-06-29 20:35:20 UTC
I would like to get some explanation about new fighter damage buff/nerf...
lets look at some T1 fighter stats.

While dragon fly gets reduced orbit range it certainly improves the damage application for this fighter
orbit 4500 m turret optimal 4000 m , this is improvement from previous 5km orbit range.

Lets look at the next one Firbolg, about the same
orbit range 4500m, blaster cannon optimal 4000m.

Next up Templar whats up with the ridiculous orbit range that is way below optimal? i assume this is the most profitable fighter to rat in cus all you need is some tracking mods with tracking scripts to roll trough sanctums...
orbit range 6500m pulse cannon optimal range 8000m ...

And my favourite
Einherji, orbit range 7000m ( the highest of them all) autocannon optimal range only 4000m .... wtf?! how does this make sense?!

Now i know what you're thinking, oh angel scrub get gud, but seriously, why is every single fighter buffed and specifically fighters for angel space is nerfed? its not like angels are the worst rats to shoot anyway... at least with drones you can swap out fighters!

Now lets look at the Nid( or any other carrier ratting in angel space)

before patch i was happily rolling with 3x tracking computers and 3 tracking scripts, and my fighter damage application was maxed out = max isk.
Hitting 1364 damage / squadron on angel cherubim. 100% of the time.


After the patch, i need to use 3 optimal scrips just to get in the optimal range... and ofc damage application sucks ( because no tracking scripts)
hitting 1364 damage / squadron only about 70% of the time, other hits are like 300~600 damage .
Now that translate in to quite huge loss of isk if you are ratting against angels.

This bring me to next update- the rocket salvo. nerf is ok for pvp and i understand that, but now you need 7 salvos to kill one elite frigate. And thats not all, the damage is random one salvo hits for 54 damage other salvo hits for 2000 damage.Whats up with that? Shouldnt missiles give more or less constant damage? 7 salvos with (3 tracking computers and 3 optimal range)
4-5 salvos with 3 tracking computers and 3 tracking scripts.

So whats the point of salvos? are they heavy missiled ok, but this leaves a huge CAPITAL ship without defence for little frigs and other pesky ships. As someone mentioned before a small frigate should not be able to hold down a CAPITAL.

Suggestion: the bigger the ship, the more cap scram/distruptor uses, thats just logical. So in this case you need a heavy tackle to keep Capital /battleship pointed for longer time. I know alot of leet pvpers are gona cry about it, and probably my idea wont be even heard by devs, but smth has to be done about insects holding down elephants untill hounds arrive.

Now i wouldnt care about that as its part of balancing but Einherji nerf really is terrible and only specific for those who live in Angel space...

So someone explain me why is Einherji so nerfed and other fighters buffed?


Cheradenine-Zakalwe Amtiskaw
The Kronos Ritual
#742 - 2016-06-29 20:51:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Cheradenine-Zakalwe Amtiskaw
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
So..... Carriers can't kill T3 ships with Logi without support ships to web/tp for them with bonuses.
That sounds kinda working as intended.
It seems however that you think the balance should be elsewhere?


Svipul's were tackled by the Paladin and dromis (web support fighters).

We did not have tp's.

Logi frigs and Svipuls were essentially invincible to three carriers.

A pre-citadel thanny with web/tp and drones would have done better. As I said, we're back to where we started.
Startikan
Tishka EM Corporation
#743 - 2016-06-29 22:58:31 UTC
I have some questions for you
1 What have you done good and interesting in this game in recent years. except in the guise of a new break all the old ???
2 When you make your mind to innovation, not through the back seat ???
3 You want to kill the Projects ??
4 The most important thing. You can make a new markups without breaking what already ?? or you do not have ideas ??? While courts around them
Ormarr Kai
Fwaming Dwagons
#744 - 2016-06-30 02:03:05 UTC
Wow awesome Carriers are bad again....
ApolloF117 HUN
Cranberrie knuckles
Mordus Angels
#745 - 2016-06-30 05:29:44 UTC
Szchyactszky wrote:
I would like to get some explanation about new fighter damage buff/nerf...
lets look at some T1 fighter stats.

While dragon fly gets reduced orbit range it certainly improves the damage application for this fighter
orbit 4500 m turret optimal 4000 m , this is improvement from previous 5km orbit range.

Lets look at the next one Firbolg, about the same
orbit range 4500m, blaster cannon optimal 4000m.

Next up Templar whats up with the ridiculous orbit range that is way below optimal? i assume this is the most profitable fighter to rat in cus all you need is some tracking mods with tracking scripts to roll trough sanctums...
orbit range 6500m pulse cannon optimal range 8000m ...

And my favourite
Einherji, orbit range 7000m ( the highest of them all) autocannon optimal range only 4000m .... wtf?! how does this make sense?!

Now i know what you're thinking, oh angel scrub get gud, but seriously, why is every single fighter buffed and specifically fighters for angel space is nerfed? its not like angels are the worst rats to shoot anyway... at least with drones you can swap out fighters!

Now lets look at the Nid( or any other carrier ratting in angel space)

before patch i was happily rolling with 3x tracking computers and 3 tracking scripts, and my fighter damage application was maxed out = max isk.
Hitting 1364 damage / squadron on angel cherubim. 100% of the time.


After the patch, i need to use 3 optimal scrips just to get in the optimal range... and ofc damage application sucks ( because no tracking scripts)
hitting 1364 damage / squadron only about 70% of the time, other hits are like 300~600 damage .
Now that translate in to quite huge loss of isk if you are ratting against angels.

This bring me to next update- the rocket salvo. nerf is ok for pvp and i understand that, but now you need 7 salvos to kill one elite frigate. And thats not all, the damage is random one salvo hits for 54 damage other salvo hits for 2000 damage.Whats up with that? Shouldnt missiles give more or less constant damage? 7 salvos with (3 tracking computers and 3 optimal range)
4-5 salvos with 3 tracking computers and 3 tracking scripts.

So whats the point of salvos? are they heavy missiled ok, but this leaves a huge CAPITAL ship without defence for little frigs and other pesky ships. As someone mentioned before a small frigate should not be able to hold down a CAPITAL.

Suggestion: the bigger the ship, the more cap scram/distruptor uses, thats just logical. So in this case you need a heavy tackle to keep Capital /battleship pointed for longer time. I know alot of leet pvpers are gona cry about it, and probably my idea wont be even heard by devs, but smth has to be done about insects holding down elephants untill hounds arrive.

Now i wouldnt care about that as its part of balancing but Einherji nerf really is terrible and only specific for those who live in Angel space...

So someone explain me why is Einherji so nerfed and other fighters buffed?




While ccp give you that explanation next year, use dragonflies, they are good against angel too
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#746 - 2016-06-30 06:27:53 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Rowells wrote:

I would show you the dual compact XL extender fit, but that would just be rediculous, no? :)

Ok, I'll concede. If someone wants to spends billions of isk on a ship that will be next to useless, in any situation other than bait, they can fit it.
I suppose it's no different to my Bhal being cap stable perma running 7 heavy neuts with 1 heavy cap booster and 3200 charges. Of course they aren't in a category that states "Capital" as the fitting requirement.

Tell me, did you put these fits together with the intention of using them, or just to see if you could fit it?

My reasoning still stands, if capital mods need to be marked "Capital Only", Large guns should be marked "Won't fit anything below a battleship aside from a tier 3 battlecruiser".

Do Eve players really need to have their hands held that tightly?


It's actually a pretty fair point to want all Capital Modules to be clearly marked because some of them are, and most other modules that have hard limits on fitting (rather than just high fitting requirements) are similarly marked.

Costs you next to nothing, costs some intern at CCP an hour or so editing descriptions. Less if he's clever with his regex... Lol and it makes things more clear and consistent for everyone.

Capital Modules are all very clearly marked - They are under a Capital Heading in each group.


I don't go to "Small Rigs" when fitting a capital.
Same as I don't go to Large Shield when fitting a capital.
There is specific categories for "Capital", Large, Medium and Small.

Common Sense has to come into this somewhere.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Moustache Cuir
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#747 - 2016-06-30 09:59:24 UTC
The fighter nerf isn't THAT bad when it comes to PVE, I still make roughly as much per tick (tried two ticks so far, the first was 38m which got me thinking and the second was 50m).

Using missiles on frigs is now useless but it still works well on cruisers, and you have enough missiles to blow up pretty much all of the cruisers in havens and sanctums. So all in all it's an "okay" nerf, I can live with it.

PS: Application buff for regular weapons that had next to no application problem + nerf to missile damage and application still is a **** move. If you're giving us something CCP at least test it before release, I'm not paying 2 memberships to be your ******* beta tester. I don't like it when you're taking my toys back.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#748 - 2016-06-30 10:09:12 UTC
@Moustache Cuir - we were getting 60 / 65m before, now were 55 to 60. not much, but when people just spent a lot to adjust to the changes in the first place, to get a frozen trout across the face, its anoying as hell.

today proved just how bad it was when fighters couldnt even scratch sabers that tackled it.
Cade Windstalker
#749 - 2016-06-30 13:36:43 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Capital Modules are all very clearly marked - They are under a Capital Heading in each group.


I don't go to "Small Rigs" when fitting a capital.
Same as I don't go to Large Shield when fitting a capital.
There is specific categories for "Capital", Large, Medium and Small.

Common Sense has to come into this somewhere.


It did, all the Capital Modules are now clearly marked in-game. Big smile

Didn't even hurt, did it? Blink
Startikan
Tishka EM Corporation
#750 - 2016-06-30 13:58:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Startikan
Moustache Cuir wrote:
The fighter nerf isn't THAT bad when it comes to PVE, I still make roughly as much per tick (tried two ticks so far, the first was 38m which got me thinking and the second was 50m).

Using missiles on frigs is now useless but it still works well on cruisers, and you have enough missiles to blow up pretty much all of the cruisers in havens and sanctums. So all in all it's an "okay" nerf, I can live with it.

PS: Application buff for regular weapons that had next to no application problem + nerf to missile damage and application still is a **** move. If you're giving us something CCP at least test it before release, I'm not paying 2 memberships to be your ******* beta tester. I don't like it when you're taking my toys back.



you are nonsense the worst thing that could have made do. they just do not know how to think. they kill the game
Nero Pantera
Whale Girth
#751 - 2016-06-30 14:32:55 UTC
They definitely removed the uniqueness from the bombs. Previously in pve I would save them for smaller ships. Attacking one ship while bombing a different one removing it from the field. Now they don't hit frigs or cruisers worth a damn. They seem just added dps that will run out and that you have to click 3 more buttons for. Nothing special just. Annoying now
Startikan
Tishka EM Corporation
#752 - 2016-06-30 14:46:39 UTC
Nero Pantera wrote:
They definitely removed the uniqueness from the bombs. Previously in pve I would save them for smaller ships. Attacking one ship while bombing a different one removing it from the field. Now they don't hit frigs or cruisers worth a damn. They seem just added dps that will run out and that you have to click 3 more buttons for. Nothing special just. Annoying now


there is a completely destroying Klas. Removed option. this can even been put up but you can fight back. Now people wept at Frigate. who are used to kill 3 people and failed. Now back to the old but even worse. it is necessary to have the stupidity to do so
Cade Windstalker
#753 - 2016-06-30 14:50:30 UTC
Nero Pantera wrote:
They definitely removed the uniqueness from the bombs. Previously in pve I would save them for smaller ships. Attacking one ship while bombing a different one removing it from the field. Now they don't hit frigs or cruisers worth a damn. They seem just added dps that will run out and that you have to click 3 more buttons for. Nothing special just. Annoying now


You can still use them in a similar way, you just switch from using the missiles on Frigates to using the primary weapon on them and nuking the Cruisers or BCs with the secondary, though I'm not sure if that's optimal.
Startikan
Tishka EM Corporation
#754 - 2016-06-30 14:59:24 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Nero Pantera wrote:
They definitely removed the uniqueness from the bombs. Previously in pve I would save them for smaller ships. Attacking one ship while bombing a different one removing it from the field. Now they don't hit frigs or cruisers worth a damn. They seem just added dps that will run out and that you have to click 3 more buttons for. Nothing special just. Annoying now


You can still use them in a similar way, you just switch from using the missiles on Frigates to using the primary weapon on them and nuking the Cruisers or BCs with the secondary, though I'm not sure if that's optimal.



all have been tried here. and on the test server. more stupid do updates I have not seen .. unfortunately developers the ability to give rise to doubts. I have encountered in their work with people when demand novschestva .a they come up with nothing can not. and they start peredelavat old. takayazhe situation here. this does not lead to good. I have many years of playing for a long time the urine. but we have to
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#755 - 2016-06-30 21:39:42 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Capital Modules are all very clearly marked - They are under a Capital Heading in each group.


I don't go to "Small Rigs" when fitting a capital.
Same as I don't go to Large Shield when fitting a capital.
There is specific categories for "Capital", Large, Medium and Small.

Common Sense has to come into this somewhere.


It did, all the Capital Modules are now clearly marked in-game. Big smile

Didn't even hurt, did it? Blink

I'm so glad Devs were able to hold your hand so tightly and lead you the the lollie shop.
Only thing now is - Did they do a good enough job, 3 or 4 clicks to discover a capital module isn't intended for a subcap. I'm sure that must be annoying.

It would be such a shame if you had to think for yourself. Much better CCP lead you by the hand.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#756 - 2016-06-30 22:14:47 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Nero Pantera wrote:
They definitely removed the uniqueness from the bombs. Previously in pve I would save them for smaller ships. Attacking one ship while bombing a different one removing it from the field. Now they don't hit frigs or cruisers worth a damn. They seem just added dps that will run out and that you have to click 3 more buttons for. Nothing special just. Annoying now


You can still use them in a similar way, you just switch from using the missiles on Frigates to using the primary weapon on them and nuking the Cruisers or BCs with the secondary, though I'm not sure if that's optimal.

Even using the secondary on cruisers and above, your not hitting for anything close to full damage.
Most npc's have very small sig's and with an Exp radius of 350, rocket salvo isn't going to have much of an effect.

DPS (which took a 40% reduction) is secondary to Application and Devs just severely reduced Application ( from 100 to 350 exp radius).
So with reduced DPS and Application, rocket salvo is next to useless.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Valkyrie Alliance
#757 - 2016-06-30 23:15:17 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Capital Modules are all very clearly marked - They are under a Capital Heading in each group.


I don't go to "Small Rigs" when fitting a capital.
Same as I don't go to Large Shield when fitting a capital.
There is specific categories for "Capital", Large, Medium and Small.

Common Sense has to come into this somewhere.


It did, all the Capital Modules are now clearly marked in-game. Big smile

Didn't even hurt, did it? Blink

I'm so glad Devs were able to hold your hand so tightly and lead you the the lollie shop.
Only thing now is - Did they do a good enough job, 3 or 4 clicks to discover a capital module isn't intended for a subcap. I'm sure that must be annoying.

It would be such a shame if you had to think for yourself. Much better CCP lead you by the hand.

If love to think for myself and see if a capital module can be used on a subcap or not, but CCP decided to change the rules all of a sudden. At least the unique new rules are now documented instead of unexpectedly stopping players from doing what they can do with everything else.
Robertina Palazzo
#758 - 2016-07-01 03:47:50 UTC
I just laugh when people post how now t3 destroyers and cruisers godmode vs carriers and people say "working as intended"

How is godmoding against anything working as intended? A carrier fields only "light" fighters and "general" light fighters, both supposed to beat small targets, but cannot beat small targets kappa.

I don't know what's worse, this happened or that people genuinely think it's logical because it only suits themselves.
Re'doubt
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#759 - 2016-07-01 06:28:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Re'doubt
I don't post to often, but this one seems a little warranted.

Changing the strength of the network sensor array seems legit. Maybe carriers shouldn't be able to instalock frigates without having any kind of additional Sebo.

But changing the mechanics of the rocket salvo and how carriers apply damage is an extreme knee jerk reaction that is INCREDIBLY laughable when you compare carriers to the Svipul.

The Svipul has been out how long? And you guys haven't made any balance changes to it even though its known throughout the game and this community for being extremely overpowered for its class?

Now we have carriers, a capital ship, that requires months of training for both the individuals character, and skill on his part to fly smartly, continually getting nerfed into the ground because a few people found it harder to drop ratters or take on a carrier solo like they used to.

Players didn't even have time to adjust to the new meta that you guys created. You just hit it with the nerf bat to satisfy a lot of whining. Apparently, it was unfair that a ship that took more SP and skill to fly was more powerful than their ship that they can get into with about a month or so of training.

In the weeks since the Capital re balance, killmails proving that new meta's were still taking hold have been flowing with increasing consistency.

I was incredibly happy initially with the capital re balances. It made me want to actually use my carrier for something other than a suitcase for the rest of my stuff. I cannot say that these changes will encourage me to continue using my carrier as before. You guys claim that carriers are suppose to be an anti-subcap platform, then why the hell are you moving in the direction of removing that role from carriers?

My Svipul on the other hand. I will most definitely continue to use. Because why shouldn't I have a ship that's essentially neatly packaged "I win" button for a huge variety of PVP.
Shalashaska Adam
Snakes and Lasers
#760 - 2016-07-01 14:20:03 UTC
Carriers are now in a very bad place, almost useless as an entire ship class if they remain like this.

Some major attention and very significant improvements need to be made.