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Scammed, and not sure how.

First post
Author
Miyamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#121 - 2012-01-15 15:00:36 UTC
Marhaba wrote:
Miyamato wrote:
What would make this trade window scamming impossible would be a final screen that shows the absolute end of the trade.
Say I am buying a BC for 100 million. The battlecruiser enters the window, I put my money into the window and accept. Then the screen pops up with a final trade of Battlecruiser for 100,000,000. Do you Accept? YES. Then voila, the end result is controlled by the server and everything goes through smoothly.

Pretty easy fix really.


Fix? I'm not convinced anything's broken.


All I see are people saying how if you haven't been scammed in Eve then you aren't playing. Meaning everyone in Eve will at some point be scammed. In one way by this trade window thing.

I dunno, I'm just going off what I'm reading in this thread. I have experiencd the trade window though, which is pretty bare bones and something that resembled UO back in 1999. A more secure, and truthworthy trade window is one that has a final acceptance screen that is completely controlled by the server. Server receives the BC, server receives the money, both people agree and a final acceptance appears to the seller and buyer. When both agree, the trade goes through. All in all, pretty easy to do.

Trade window scams have been going on since the hayday of MMO's. Almost the first thing people attempted to try back in UO beta.
ISD Alassien
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#122 - 2012-01-15 15:01:00 UTC
Zarcan wrote:
Hey guys.

So, I've been running a rigged mission domi for some time now. After a good amount of missions and trading, I've got just enough so, if I sell my rigged domi at a little below real value with rigs, I'd be able to outfit a Navy Domi.

So, I go to Jita and offer a sale of my domi for 95mil, send out the message a few times. The rigs were 1x Sentry Drone Damage Aug, 1x Large Nanobot, 1x Large Aux Nano Pump

I get a trade offer, the window pops up. I throw my Domi in to see if that's what he's inquiring about, and I see 95mil in green show up, along with his accept checkmark. I accept as well, and it goes through.

But I never got the 95mil.

Character is Marhaba. He proceeds to say in Jita chat "Thanks for the free domi ;)."

Considering that that ship was my largest asset, I'm pretty infuriated. I don't know if this was some bug, scam, or what. Would CCP listen to a petition?

What do I do from here?


Zarcan,

It may be worth filing a petition for a GM to look into this - make sure you provide as much detail as possible.

Can we also stay on topic and refrain from flaming one another? Big smile

ISD Alassien Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department

Marhaba
Dissolution Syndicate
#123 - 2012-01-15 15:05:02 UTC
Miyamato wrote:
Marhaba wrote:
Miyamato wrote:
What would make this trade window scamming impossible would be a final screen that shows the absolute end of the trade.
Say I am buying a BC for 100 million. The battlecruiser enters the window, I put my money into the window and accept. Then the screen pops up with a final trade of Battlecruiser for 100,000,000. Do you Accept? YES. Then voila, the end result is controlled by the server and everything goes through smoothly.

Pretty easy fix really.


Fix? I'm not convinced anything's broken.


All I see are people saying how if you haven't been scammed in Eve then you aren't playing. Meaning everyone in Eve will at some point be scammed. In one way by this trade window thing.

I dunno, I'm just going off what I'm reading in this thread. I have experiencd the trade window though, which is pretty bare bones and something that resembled UO back in 1999. A more secure, and truthworthy trade window is one that has a final acceptance screen that is completely controlled by the server. Server receives the BC, server receives the money, both people agree and a final acceptance appears to the seller and buyer. When both agree, the trade goes through. All in all, pretty easy to do.

Trade window scams have been going on since the hayday of MMO's. Almost the first thing people attempted to try back in UO beta.


Scamming is a legitimate game mechanic, and I don't think it's CCP's job to prevent scams.
Killer Gandry
Fenghuang Corporation
Ethnobotanical Demonolatry
#124 - 2012-01-15 15:06:01 UTC
Hijeri wrote:
[quote=Zarcan].Have fun with your mission running, basically the most boring thing you can do in this game along with mining. This is an MMO sandbox, and then you go and voluntarily grind your ass off doing the most mundane thing, as if you're playing World of Warcraft. Hilarious.



Well, I have to say that 0.0 life isn't that thrilling either. Forming up a group and then try to get some action can be boring as hell in 0.0
Either your targets do SS hopping or log off because they are outnumbered or your group does it because they outnumber you vastly.

Next to that you have the awesome Gatecamps, PoS bashes etc. All thrilling and exciting.

Miyamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#125 - 2012-01-15 15:08:34 UTC
Marhaba wrote:
Miyamato wrote:
Marhaba wrote:
Miyamato wrote:
What would make this trade window scamming impossible would be a final screen that shows the absolute end of the trade.
Say I am buying a BC for 100 million. The battlecruiser enters the window, I put my money into the window and accept. Then the screen pops up with a final trade of Battlecruiser for 100,000,000. Do you Accept? YES. Then voila, the end result is controlled by the server and everything goes through smoothly.

Pretty easy fix really.


Fix? I'm not convinced anything's broken.


All I see are people saying how if you haven't been scammed in Eve then you aren't playing. Meaning everyone in Eve will at some point be scammed. In one way by this trade window thing.

I dunno, I'm just going off what I'm reading in this thread. I have experiencd the trade window though, which is pretty bare bones and something that resembled UO back in 1999. A more secure, and truthworthy trade window is one that has a final acceptance screen that is completely controlled by the server. Server receives the BC, server receives the money, both people agree and a final acceptance appears to the seller and buyer. When both agree, the trade goes through. All in all, pretty easy to do.

Trade window scams have been going on since the hayday of MMO's. Almost the first thing people attempted to try back in UO beta.


Scamming is a legitimate game mechanic, and I don't think it's CCP's job to prevent scams.


I've played a ton of MMO's in my lifetime but I have never once been around a community that actually says scamming is a legitimate mechanic of any kind. Let alone game mechanic.

Lying and stealing someone elses property is not a legitimate mechanic. There is a different between a gullible person falling for a trap and an actual game-creating bug/mechanic that causes the ability to scam. If someone accepts a contracted mission and goes out to the spot to pick up the item and then gets killed, that is a legitimate game mechanic. That is someone setting a legitimate trap, someone falling into it, and getting killed in the process. Thats legitimate.

But if the game has buggy code or lag or something in that nature that creates the ability for someone to lose their hard earned ISK or equipment, that is not at all legitimate.
Ghoest
#126 - 2012-01-15 15:15:11 UTC
All scams depends a failure.

Legitimate scams depend on one of 2 things.
-a failure to determine is you can trust someone
-a failure to understand game mechanics

Illegitimate scams depend on a failure of the game hardware and code to function as intended.

Wherever You Went - Here You Are

Zleon Leigh
#127 - 2012-01-15 15:31:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Zleon Leigh
Marhaba wrote:
Miyamato wrote:
Marhaba wrote:
Miyamato wrote:
What would make this trade window scamming impossible would be a final screen that shows the absolute end of the trade.
Say I am buying a BC for 100 million. The battlecruiser enters the window, I put my money into the window and accept. Then the screen pops up with a final trade of Battlecruiser for 100,000,000. Do you Accept? YES. Then voila, the end result is controlled by the server and everything goes through smoothly.

Pretty easy fix really.


Fix? I'm not convinced anything's broken.


All I see are people saying how if you haven't been scammed in Eve then you aren't playing. Meaning everyone in Eve will at some point be scammed. In one way by this trade window thing.

I dunno, I'm just going off what I'm reading in this thread. I have experiencd the trade window though, which is pretty bare bones and something that resembled UO back in 1999. A more secure, and truthworthy trade window is one that has a final acceptance screen that is completely controlled by the server. Server receives the BC, server receives the money, both people agree and a final acceptance appears to the seller and buyer. When both agree, the trade goes through. All in all, pretty easy to do.

Trade window scams have been going on since the hayday of MMO's. Almost the first thing people attempted to try back in UO beta.


Scamming is a legitimate game mechanic, and I don't think it's CCP's job to prevent scams.


Well CCP doesn't totally agree - they finally put the extra warning in on the courier contracts about load volume. Guess they finally got tired of the noob griefing on oversized contracts.

Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital. CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day

PvP's latest  incentive program ** Unified Inventory **  'Cause you gotta kill something after trying to use it

Marhaba
Dissolution Syndicate
#128 - 2012-01-15 15:36:48 UTC
Just curious, why was this not moved to C&P?
Caldari Citizen345893746
Doomheim
#129 - 2012-01-15 15:43:24 UTC
This is EVE, please take a seat and prepare for your next scam.

If you are not on the receiving end I would propose you get on the dealing end.

NEXT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Zleon Leigh
#130 - 2012-01-15 15:46:23 UTC
Marhaba wrote:
Just curious, why was this not moved to C&P?


Because the OP didn't understand that he had been scammed by a criminal with the assistance of a CCP fail mechanic. He just thought it was a bug.

Then it evolved into a General Discussion on the harm that scamming is having on EVE and the lack of balance in it.

Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital. CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day

PvP's latest  incentive program ** Unified Inventory **  'Cause you gotta kill something after trying to use it

Xavier Holtzman
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#131 - 2012-01-15 17:18:52 UTC
Morganta wrote:
Zarcan wrote:
Seatox wrote:
The trade window is terrible, and vulnerable to sleight of hand - and you shouldn't use it for commerce.

What probably happened was they put in 95 million, then zeroed it *and then hit accept*, and you didn't notice them zeroing the value before you hit accept.

Use the contract system instead.


Nope, I'm aware of that tactic. The 95mil was there.

Feligast wrote:
and it's unlikely your petition would result in anything. Chalk it up as an eve lesson and get back at it.


Well this is unacceptable. That ship is worth 1/3 of my savings in the game, and I lost it due to poor game mechanics. I shouldn't be liable for unsatisfactory trade window code.


if you haven't been bankrupt by a scam or gank at least once, you haven't been playing EVE
They wont admit it, but everyone here has had it happen in some form or another at least once



There is no nice way for me to say "You are wrong."

I have been playing since 2005, and I've never been scammed or bankrupted by anybody. And when I say "play" i mean almost every aspect of eve. Trading, mission running, mining, large scale pvp, small scale pvp, and most things in between.

I do not like the men on this spaceship. They are uncouth and fail to appreciate my better qualities. I have something of value to contribute to this mission if only they would realize it. - Bill Frug

Zarcan
GeoCorp.
Evictus.
#132 - 2012-01-15 19:43:39 UTC
Marhaba wrote:
Miyamato wrote:
What would make this trade window scamming impossible would be a final screen that shows the absolute end of the trade.
Say I am buying a BC for 100 million. The battlecruiser enters the window, I put my money into the window and accept. Then the screen pops up with a final trade of Battlecruiser for 100,000,000. Do you Accept? YES. Then voila, the end result is controlled by the server and everything goes through smoothly.

Pretty easy fix really.


Fix? I'm not convinced anything's broken.


The 95mil was there when I pressed accept. It was lag.
Brock Nelson
#133 - 2012-01-15 19:46:33 UTC
Exactly, and how do you expect lag to be fixed? It's been a problem ever since Eve first came out and it's been a problem for every multiplayer game that ever exist.

Signature removed, CCP Phantom

Zarcan
GeoCorp.
Evictus.
#134 - 2012-01-15 19:52:52 UTC
Brock Nelson wrote:
Exactly, and how do you expect lag to be fixed? It's been a problem ever since Eve first came out and it's been a problem for every multiplayer game that ever exist.


In the sense that a game's efficiency is limited by connection speed, sure. I don't really believe that to be an sort of excuse for not correcting insecure trading windows, I haven't encountered this drastic of a trade window exploit problem in any other MMO.

If I'm not mistaken, even SOE (who was notorious for a poor connection with their playerbase, if anyone else was along with the NGE), SWG had an alert window whenever the client modified the order, precisely to prevent this problem. I don't see why this hasn't been implemented, especially in a game that has been around as long as EVE has. They don't like getting petitions any more than we like getting scammed.
Miyamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#135 - 2012-01-15 19:54:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Miyamato
Brock Nelson wrote:
Exactly, and how do you expect lag to be fixed? It's been a problem ever since Eve first came out and it's been a problem for every multiplayer game that ever exist.


Well thats easy. Do not make the process lag dependant.

Make it where the trade has to be finalized and accepted on both ends, with no chance at alteration before the trade can actually be completed.

A simple final acceptance screen with the final trade showcased would be something that took a week of coding, probably alot less depending on the amount of people and would completely eliminate any chance of trade window scamming.

You see a screen pop up after both parties agree on the initial trade. The server scans the final trade and pops a message on both screens " You are about to initiate a trade with *player *. *Player* Offers XXXX Item. * You * Offer XXXX ISK/Item in return. Do you Accept?

When both parties hit the accept button, then the trade is finished. Not until then.

Very easy actually.
Dr Karsun
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
#136 - 2012-01-15 19:59:10 UTC
Rule nr 1 of new eden trade - never, ever use the trade window. Issueing a director contract costs 10k isk, next to nothing. If someone insists on trade, it means that his good are either from isk-selling and he can be tracked, or he's scamming you. Either way, not worth the fuss.

"Have you had your morning coffee?" -> the Coffee Lovers Brewing Club is recruiting! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=363976#post363976

Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#137 - 2012-01-15 20:05:42 UTC
ISD Alassien wrote:
Can we also stay on topic and refrain from flaming one another? Big smile


Is this a serious request?
Ai Shun
#138 - 2012-01-15 20:34:26 UTC
Zarcan wrote:
I think that CCP just wants the extra $15 a month.

Oh, wait, scammers make so much ISK that they just plex.

Hmmmmm. Obviously a completely equitable situation here.


Zarcan, I sympathise with your loss. But you are acting a bit butthurt with that type of comment at the moment and showing how little you know of EVE Online. Two quick points that might help you.

1. ISK for PLEX represents income for CCP. Even if your conspiracy theory holds true, they are still earning income because SOMEBODY has to buy the PLEX.

2. Scamming is part of the EVE Online experience. It is part of why some play it. You need to be careful and not put yourself in danger. Just about all of EVE Online is PVP, including trading, contracts, PI, the whole lot of it. You need to be aware, alert and looking out for yourself. That is why some of the others play it.

Fly safe! And don't fly anything you can't afford to lose Lol
Ai Shun
#139 - 2012-01-15 20:38:19 UTC
Miyamato wrote:
Lying and stealing someone elses property is not a legitimate mechanic. There is a different between a gullible person falling for a trap and an actual game-creating bug/mechanic that causes the ability to scam. If someone accepts a contracted mission and goes out to the spot to pick up the item and then gets killed, that is a legitimate game mechanic. That is someone setting a legitimate trap, someone falling into it, and getting killed in the process. Thats legitimate.


What about the trade scams in Jita? They are lies that end up with somebody stealing anothers' property.
Captain Dunzel
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#140 - 2012-01-15 20:38:49 UTC
1-Up Mushroom wrote:
Brock Nelson wrote:
Knowing 1-Up Mushroom, 50m is chump change for him, I think he's just hoping to get you to shut up and move on

Yea it was chump change for me, but it's just nice to help people out every once in a while.


Personally for me any thread where Tippia takes an opposing view, I have to think that the OP has a Valid point.Blink