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Protean Concept
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#1061 - 2016-04-11 18:04:18 UTC
I like how EVE currently respects my time. I don't HAVE to log in tonight. I might miss some fun, but I don't feel guilty for missing a reward for doing some stupid chore in a game. Guild Wars 2 did that, and I burned out and quit the game in less than a month. EVE is not an MMO that requires these kinds of incentives to make people log in. This is a terrible change, and will drive away many parts of your core player base.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#1062 - 2016-04-11 18:07:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
CCP Rise wrote:
Why Skillpoints?
There's been a lot of feedback here that this kind of feature would be acceptable if the rewards were more monetary, either LP or ISK or something similar. There's a few reasons that doesn't really work and we feel pulled towards SP. I think the biggest one is that many people simply won't be motivated by LP or ISK, especially in the amounts we would be restricted to giving. SP simply has higher demand across more playstyles and player ages and that just makes it a more powerful incentive. Second big reason that we actually tried designs using item and ISK rewards and it quickly creates a lot of economic imbalances. Any time we are giving something away without much activity cost we are heavily sabotaging someone's gameplay. Whether it's because of devaluing LP, causing major inflation, or crashing item markets, it's all bad for you guys so we would rather avoid it.


Well, with the advent of skill injectors skill points have a direct ISK price. 10,000 SP equals about 13,000,000 ISK at current injector prices. If you take diminishing returns in account, it's even higher. Currently I'm in the 50m-80m SP bracket, so accruing 30 days of daily SP rewards would mean that I've saved myself about 650m ISK by not buying someone's injector. You're still sabotaging someone's gameplay, namely people who provide injectors for the market. Moreover, people who can't log in for whatever reason would be disproportionally punished by not getting their daily rewards. For example, last year, I had no access to EVE for two and a half months. If this feature was present at the time, I would've lost about 750,000 SP by not logging in, even though my skill queue was still running during that period.

This reward goes straight against a core tenet of the game and will alienate people and cause burnout. If offering something else than SP means that people would be uninterested in daily rewards, it just means that daily rewards really have no place in this game.
Bobbi Attwell
Doomheim
#1063 - 2016-04-11 18:21:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Bobbi Attwell
No. Just no. Sp are too valuable to do this with. This will instantly take me from "not sure I feel like logging in today" to "well, the longer I don't log in the less I'll think about why I'm being penalized despite you already having my money"


If you're absolutely committed to doing know that
A) I will be cancelling a significant number of my 10 accounts as is rather not have to think about how they're falling behind.
B) there are better ways of doing this. (take off 12 he's from the next remap, allow the player to move 10k sp to the unallocated pool from some skill they've trained without penalty, etc...)

As it is... You really need to listen to your players (lol cause you totally listened to the feedback surrounding market taxes) again or get bent.
Commander A9
This Was The Way
#1064 - 2016-04-11 18:21:45 UTC
The learning cliff suddenly seems to be getting flatter and flatter...

I'm not too wild about this...

But, hell, let's test it out on Singularity and see where it goes.

Recommendations:

-enable ships wobbling in hangar view (pre-Captains Quarters)

-add more missions (NPC fleet vs. NPC fleets that actually shoot)

-STOP NERFING EVERYTHING!

Join Live Events!
Viserys Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1065 - 2016-04-11 18:34:24 UTC
I thought about this more.

For me at least, the most miserable time I had in the game was grinding NPC missions. LVL4s etc, just boring. The only fun I got was trying to run them in very small ships. But even that was "orbit at 1000" and set the guns to blazing. come back a few minutes later and swap targets.

Killing NPCs made me leave the game twice before.

Now I'm a pacifist. The only PVP i engage in is when I'm the target. But I still prefer that to the NPC grind.

I used to get kicks out of seeing how far into NS I could get in a T1 frigate before getting blown up. I don't mind getting blown up, but the thought of shooting one more NPC is mind numbing.

Yes, I know it would be optional. But its like anything else. I could choose not to, but I'm putting myself at a significant disadvantage by not doing it. Eventually the disadvantage, combined with all my other disadvantages (late start in Eve, lack of real gaming skill, etc) will stack up to the point where I will no longer log in because I just fall further and further behind. I'm already not all that thrilled with skill injectors for the same reason. I'm poor in game. I'm fine with that. Part of my play style and character persona. But because of that, I'm already behind those that will grind out Incursions and buy a few injectors.

PLEX also haven't been my favorite either, though I will admit I take advantage of selling PLEX. I have more money in life than time , so spending a small portion of my RL times earning to keep my purse in the black, works for me. But at the same time, It has diminished the game for me. I no longer feel the sting of losing a ship. I can replace just about anything I lose (even my T3s) with 10 minutes of 'real life' work time. Now I do see how PLEX has keep more people in game, as people like me will sell PLEX to people that play more, and they in turn get to stay in the game for 'free'. So PLEX was a net gain for everyone. CCP and players.

I just fail to see the upside to this...at all.
Circumstantial Evidence
#1066 - 2016-04-11 18:35:33 UTC
CCP is working all-out to develop a major expansion that involves player activity at many levels (traders, miners, builders) This proposed feature rewards only one form of player activity.

I got a "would you recommend EVE" survey recently, and lowered a high recommendation score I was thinking about based on the hard work CCP is doing to add value to the game, due to this proposed effort at player manipulation / logon motivation called an "opportunity," which rewards with skill points created by CCP, not other characters.

This grasping at a small percent increase for a trivial logon activity, is embarrassing in light of the larger gains that can be achieved through expanded content and events.

CCP does better at driving logon interest among long-term players with its nearly monthly updates, and creating engaging quarterly events like Operation Frostline / Gurista Detention, that can involve traders where unique loot is involved, and miners/builders where BPC's are involved. It doesn't take "free SP" to get players to log in and interact with these kinds of features.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#1067 - 2016-04-11 18:36:18 UTC
You know, I don't think I fully explained why I left other MMOs with dailies in my previous posts. Let me remedy that, if you'll allow me to meander a bit.

I tend to check out each WoW expansion, a month or two after the release. I played it pretty extensively from Vanilla through Wrath, but have since barely managed to stay in a month per expansion at most. Dailies were a huge part of that, because of the following:

I 'had' to do them every day. Oh they got me to log in, but not because I wanted to have fun but because I wanted the progression it got me. More gold, more reputation, more rewards. Sure, this works fine short-term but sooner or later you hit that wall and you just can't do it anymore. So after exhausting content and no longer finding the will to do the dailies, you have that day when "Eh, I don't need to do the dailies today." and you skip logging in that day.

Then maybe you log in the second day, but then you don't log in the third. And the fourth. Then you're suddenly not just losing interest in the game, but you're falling behind in the progression and the ghost of the Chores Before You makes logging in an even more daunting task which you'd rather just postpone until tomorrow. Or the day after. I'll play something else instead. You know, Stardew Valley is kind of fun. Another day passes, the desire to log in is less than ever and the chores waiting are even greater so you ignore them entirely and that blueberry harvest omg!

Then you unsub and leave.

You are being compared with WoW because it's apt. Not because we're expecting dragons and raid finders, but because we're seeing the potential start of something we bloody dread from that game. The list of chores waiting when you log in, that has to be done if you don't want to be punished with the absence of rewards.

Don't do that to us. Don't try to tell us what we should do when we log in, if we want the carrot dangling up there. Just make the game fun to play and we'll log in. I promise. Now if you'll excuse me, I have goats that need milking. Or not. Maybe I'll just fish all day. Or go gamble in the casino. Or deliver fruit to all my friends. Whatever.
Toppar Wear
Baba Yagas
The Initiative.
#1068 - 2016-04-11 18:37:41 UTC
I haven't posted on this forum in years (5+). You just made me post. Do not implement this. I don't want to grind stupid stuff. Don't tell what is worth doing. Weakly or monthly as a minimum, no dailies. This is so hopelessly stupid so at least rein in the stupidity. So many good things happening and then you pull this..
Vailen Sere
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1069 - 2016-04-11 18:40:03 UTC
CowQueen MMXII wrote:
Seriously?

What do i get for doing pvp kills?
How should someone who is living in some high class wormhole do this stuff?
What do I get for having logged in without any extra incentive for almost six years on a daily basis?

If such a mechanic existed when I started playing, I probably wouldn't have started playing at all.



Killmarks
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1070 - 2016-04-11 18:42:59 UTC
I think daily tasks are dumb. And I think that giving essentially 5 extra hours of SP is over powered. Eventually, people will get burned out and won't even bother. I think dailies on Wow is what kill it for me.

I'm currently in a war, killing an NPC would be very difficult for me right now.

The reward of SP is over powered, but I think Aurum would be very good for this task. Hopefully, in easy to trade small packets so that people can sell them and skins are easier to get for everyone.

Even if you are dead set on daily tasks, I don't want 'daily' tasks that are the same. I think it is a dumb idea. Maybe you mix it up a bit, people have to do something different on different days. Like shooting player characters or scrambling someone or using a certain module or mining some easy to get mineral or doing a level 1 mission etc.

Best of luck on this idea. It's dumb. You should listen to feedback.
Krevnos
Back Door Burglars
#1071 - 2016-04-11 18:45:16 UTC
I would like to see this change reversed immediately. Not partially, not modified. Gone!
Batolemaeus
Mahlstrom
Northern Associates.
#1072 - 2016-04-11 18:51:55 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Small sidenote on activities: many of you mentioned PVP, remember that this is always problematic because the most effective way to PVP for rewards is just kill your own alt, which isn't very fun or interesting.


But grinding NPC is interesting and engaging? At least if i murder a few alts each day, every day, for no reason other than your psychological trickery compelling me to do so because the bonus of doing so is immense, I get a killmail out of it.

Your elaboration was completely unnecessary. It was clear from the start:

You want to introduce backhanded psychological tricks to create a compulsion to log in. You want, in effect, to turn Eve into the kind of game people don't play because they want to, but are coerced into 'playing' to do chores because they will lose out on something otherwise. That kind of game design is why I stopped playing several games already, with no intention of ever going back.

And the worst part is, the thing people are losing out on isn't even something positive. It's not engaging content, or having fun with friends. It's none of the things that make people genuinely want to log in and stay, or resubscribe after a hiatus.

You're breaking one of Eve's selling points - that you can play this game at you own pace and as real life allows - because you are nostalgic for the old days of daily skill juggling and setting up alarm clocks to not miss out on SP? Are you kidding me?


I'm too old for having developers try to go all mobile games on me. I hate that entire industry with a passion for their cold psychological manipulation, creating skinner boxes and compulsion loops and all the slimy things they do to remind me that they are not some enthusiastic developers with a fun game, but predators going after whales.

And now you're here, peddling the same loathsome strategies to me. I will never log into GW2 ever again because I never want to see the daily grind ever again. Don't turn my Eve into such a game.


If you're worried about people not logging in, work on informing people of the things that are going on in the game. Give players tools to drag people in more easily, to inform players that are not currently logged in of the things happening in that moment. Corps and alliances rely on third party tools to do so, why don't you work on reaching those who are not currently organised like that?
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#1073 - 2016-04-11 18:52:09 UTC
Harkin Issier wrote:
It undermines the entire "you don't grind for XP" idea that makes Eve different


Indeed, not grinding for xp means that one of the original premises of eve is undermined. Say someone wants the SP but has sworn to defend the Blood Raiders and are stuck in Blood Raider space therefore their sandbox is broken. Its just an artificial mechanic, poorly thought out in regards to its place in eve online.
Rain6639
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1074 - 2016-04-11 18:54:28 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Why Skillpoints?
There's been a lot of feedback here that this kind of feature would be acceptable if the rewards were more monetary, either LP or ISK or something similar. There's a few reasons that doesn't really work and we feel pulled towards SP. I think the biggest one is that many people simply won't be motivated by LP or ISK, especially in the amounts we would be restricted to giving. SP simply has higher demand across more playstyles and player ages and that just makes it a more powerful incentive. Second big reason that we actually tried designs using item and ISK rewards and it quickly creates a lot of economic imbalances. Any time we are giving something away without much activity cost we are heavily sabotaging someone's gameplay. Whether it's because of devaluing LP, causing major inflation, or crashing item markets, it's all bad for you guys so we would rather avoid it.


Well, with the advent of skill injectors skill points have a direct ISK price. 10,000 SP equals about 13,000,000 ISK at current injector prices. If you take diminishing returns in account, it's even higher. Currently I'm in the 50m-80m SP bracket, so accruing 30 days of daily SP rewards would mean that I've saved myself about 650m ISK by not buying someone's injector. You're still sabotaging someone's gameplay, namely people who provide injectors for the market. Moreover, people who can't log in for whatever reason would be disproportionally punished by not getting their daily rewards. For example, last year, I had no access to EVE for two and a half months. If this feature was present at the time, I would've lost about 750,000 SP by not logging in, even though my skill queue was still running during that period.

This reward goes straight against a core tenet of the game and will alienate people and cause burnout. If offering something else than SP means that people would be uninterested in daily rewards, it just means that daily rewards really have no place in this game.

an injector's worth of SP every two weeks is good.
Vailen Sere
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1075 - 2016-04-11 18:59:09 UTC
The big reason I am pro on this is it gets newbros in ships faster.

Most of this game involves revolving around chores.

Setting up for fleets is chore work (and if you haven't killed rats in a fleet sitting on a gate...)

Mining is chorework. Salvaging is chore work. indy? job queues? chore work.

It's a minor reward for being online, in game. It's not a game changer, and you can probably do it in your routine without thinking about it.

One question I didn't see is, If your in a fleet and there are gate rats and you don't get the killing blow on them, do you get credit?
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1076 - 2016-04-11 18:59:49 UTC
Thanks for posting some more about the reasoning behind ... but nothing has changed. You want to introduce a reward for logging in every day which can't be ignored without feeling uncomfortable (the whole purpose of the thing). With the "daily" skill queue update I could perfectly time and prepare for vacations or a couple of days off without losing skill points. With your daily quest, I have to login every single day at the same time +-2 hours, to avoid losing skill points. Sorry, but this is a worse deal than the skill queue update, where I actually had options. You always say, features which are not giving a meaningful choice should be given the axe, now you introduce exactly one of those ... Ugh

... and yes, you are lazy, I can't believe this is the only idea in the world how to increase the number of login session per player. Why daily? It was not daily before!

I'm my own NPC alt.
Jinrai Tremaine
Cheese It Inc
#1077 - 2016-04-11 19:02:57 UTC
The underlying problem with this idea (IMO) is that SP is too valuable a resource to pass up. That means that the moment it's offered as a reward everyone is going to feel obligated to collect it. If players are already killing a rat a day with each of their characters then that's great for them, but for everyone else it's going to lead to either wasting time doing something you don't enjoy because the reward is too good to skip or frustration that you can't get the reward every day (because your RL commitments don't let you play daily, for example) and you're falling behind those who can. In either case that's likely to lead to burnout from repeatedly doing things you don't actually enjoy (in the game you choose to play in your free time for fun) or just quitting in annoyance at how the game is demonstrably favouring other players.

Speaking for myself, I'm honestly considering quitting over this, because I know exactly how it'll go for me; I'll feel obligated to log in and kill a rat on each of my 42 characters because otherwise I'll feel that I'm missing out/falling behind, but as that's likely to take over an hour of just switching accounts repeatedly every day I'm going to get frustrated and burn out and stop playing as a result. For anyone who's going to suggest the solution is to not have 42 characters, I've already got my own niche multibox mining which actually uses all 14 of those accounts on a daily basis. But it doesn't involve many NPC kills and certainly doesn't get the 2 extra alts on each account any kills either, so I'd be missing out on at least 280k SP per day if I just do what I actually enjoy, and having that wasted opportunity running through my head would also not be something I enjoy, so it seems like for me the only winning move would be not to play at all.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1078 - 2016-04-11 19:04:07 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Why Skillpoints?
There's been a lot of feedback here that this kind of feature would be acceptable if the rewards were more monetary, either LP or ISK or something similar. There's a few reasons that doesn't really work and we feel pulled towards SP. I think the biggest one is that many people simply won't be motivated by LP or ISK, especially in the amounts we would be restricted to giving. SP simply has higher demand across more playstyles and player ages and that just makes it a more powerful incentive. Second big reason that we actually tried designs using item and ISK rewards and it quickly creates a lot of economic imbalances. Any time we are giving something away without much activity cost we are heavily sabotaging someone's gameplay. Whether it's because of devaluing LP, causing major inflation, or crashing item markets, it's all bad for you guys so we would rather avoid it.

While reasoning is appreciated, it's still a change that introduces a grind for SP feature to EVE, which devalues the most unique feature about EVE and why most of us love EVE so much.
EVE currently appeals to mature players specifically because there isn't a need to be online daily, the skill queue was not a daily incentive, it was a chore and was rightly recognised as such and changed eventually when the tech became available, or so we were told in the Dev blogs about it at the time. If you could recognise then that 'daily' activity simply to get SP was bad, then surely you can recognise that daily quests for bonus SP are even worse.
Blavish
Therapy.
Brave Collective
#1079 - 2016-04-11 19:04:56 UTC
Not one for writing long comments etc but this seems like a really bad idea.
Erihn Sabrovich
#1080 - 2016-04-11 19:11:42 UTC
I see many OLDER players (which already have tons of SP as they play for a long time) complain about that system saying "it removes the link between age and SP"...

There is a way to fix that...

Make the SP gained vary with the player current SP total, a little like what you see for skill injectors.

That way, older players with tons of SP ( 150 000 000 SP and more for example) won't get much from that "daily" (for example 100 SP which will be neglectible in comparison to what they already earn) and new players get the full 10000 SP (or even more as a boost for new players and a way to help them getting hooked to the game).