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Author
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#1101 - 2016-04-11 20:28:48 UTC  |  Edited by: beakerax
CCP Rise wrote:
So this leads us to where we are now, attempting to find ways to create more logins that also don't feel like such a punishment as the skill queue limitations did.

How are dailies less punishing? With the old skillqueue, or even before the skillqueue, if you were going away for a bit or you didn't have time to play, you could put in a long skill and miss nothing.

e: I should say, I disagree with much of your post, Rise, but much respect for writing it up. I was catty towards you earlier in the thread and I'm sorry for that.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1102 - 2016-04-11 20:31:38 UTC
Ligraph wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Ligraph wrote:

how about make them build so every day 1 rat adds to your counter but the counter never goes over 30

so say you cant log in for half a month when you do log in your counter is at 15/30 so you can go and kill 15 rats but if you stay logged off for a year its only 30/30 this still incentives logging on but its much more free for the player to do it


this would be a way to adapt dailies to fit your game rather than just copy past and jam it in


.....


Well I meant x and y, but x or y is probably better.


aye with and it takes longer and everyone has to do something they would not normaly

with or people can chose what they want to do to get the SP
CBrooksC
I3 CROWD
Rapid Deconstruction
#1103 - 2016-04-11 20:32:39 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
words


Solution. You can only collect the daily rewards if you have less than 5,500,000 million skill points on that character.


cb
Gary Webb
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1104 - 2016-04-11 20:34:11 UTC
Just another thought,

All the people complaining about feeling ripped off seem to forget that while CCP does care about us as players and their community, they are a business that needs to pay employees and have a marketable product that appeals to a larger base of players. far fewer people think "Thats the game for me!" when they hear stuff like "learning curve, HA! More like learning cliff!". CCP has to think about their bottom line as well as we, the players. Its super easy to get burnt out on running the same level 4 in the same raven after 3 months of doing it over and over. Being able to get into that Rattlesnake a bit faster, get to a point where you feel confident enought to move to null or WH space faster is only going to improve space for all of us.

The bittervets out there need to realize there is still loads of content only they can handle such as these new cazy drifters ect. You guys need to change with the times. a few million free SP a year is not going to kill anyone. Its just going to embolded people to expand outwards from starting systems and fly into your waiting jaws.

I personally would love to see more SP earning opportunities in game. Eventually necessity will dictate that more new and exciting content (ships, new space, ect) will have to be added by CCP for the older players. I cant wait.

[CCP give us more ships!]
Gary Webb
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1105 - 2016-04-11 20:36:24 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Gary Webb wrote:
i love this idea. Its great for contrant generation. I'd like to see in the future, larger sp awards by sec status, therefor increasing the flow of players venturing into low and null for the promise of extra SP, thus creating a target rich environment! I think anything that helps players train to their goals faster is only going to make them log in more, spend more $$ (which im sure is part of CCP's motive) and best of all UNDOCK MORE! i saw someone mention in an earlier post a different reward for veterans. This i think would be a good idea as there does come a point where sp loses its value to a player. Be it a new booster that allows certIan items to be fit to ships for a short amount of time (cov ops cloak on a battleship) or something like that! just spit balling here. When you get to where I am in game, youre right in that zone where youre less inclined to log in every day as your queue is training that 57 day skill so you know you cant do anyhting new yet. I hope ccp expands on this. injectors have made things really interesting in eve again and I think this stands to do it even more. A lot of people are acting like this is going to train race x battleship to 5 overnight. this is not that. i think this is going to make for some amazingly fun fights



O.o you are joking right?

just because i had work one day you can fit a cov ops to your BB



not 100% serious, extreme example. couldnt think of anyhting a super L33t vet would find a satisfying reward
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#1106 - 2016-04-11 20:37:10 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
We want you to be able to collect this reward during a lunch break or a 10 minute period where your kids are in timeout but also want to make sure there's some real gameplay associated with it.

CCP Rise wrote:
We didn't like the experience around being punished for not logging in to update your queue, but also knew that some of those logins might be leading to meaningful gameplay and we shouldn't lightly let go of them.

Decide Rise. You can't have cookie and eat cookie. You think my 10 minute period will lead to something meaningful? Why do you think sunday is a peak in EvE? You target wrong audience. Try 10-20 yold, oh wait you do...

Ps. we need a mounts, I meant SKINs for 30 consecutive dailies (that's how you do dailies),
Ps. 2 you have no idea what cancer you want to bring to EvE.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1107 - 2016-04-11 20:37:47 UTC
beakerax wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
So this leads us to where we are now, attempting to find ways to create more logins that also don't feel like such a punishment as the skill queue limitations did.

How are dailies less punishing? With the old skillqueue, or even before the skillqueue, if you were going away for a bit or you didn't have time to play, you could put in a long skill and miss nothing.


Dailies are not punishing. You get the reward for the one you do and that's where it ends. You don't lose anything for not logging. The daily idea is wrong for something completely different. The fact that people could not get 100% of the potential benefit should not be an issue for anyone. The player base here is just full of hypocrisy and feel 100% entitled to get 100% return of any opportunity if it involve SP.

If people didn't feel entitled to getting it all, they would not be unhappy about potentially missing some because they work. They FEEL penalized because they think they SHOULD get it all when it reality, they would be getting 100% of the reward they deserve by fulfilling the requirement as many time as they can.

Start feeling penalized when they remove stuff from you if you don't do something, not when they don't give you something if you didn't do the required action.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1108 - 2016-04-11 20:37:48 UTC
CBrooksC wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
words


Solution. You can only collect the daily rewards if you have less than 5,500,000 million skill points on that character.


cb


did you miss the part of it having nothing to do with new players?
Erihn Sabrovich
#1109 - 2016-04-11 20:38:22 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:


What that would accomplish is make people who have actually played longer and have already invested in the game feel like they're being ripped off.
Back when I started, everyone had much more SP and ISK and connections and things than me. It didn't stop me from playing and progressing to where I am now. And there are still people that have more of the aforementioned things than me, but it won't stop me from keeping on. Having to log on every day or miss out on progression, on the other hand will. And I'm not alone in this.

Let's face it, unless you started back when EVE was released, you'd be a victim of the ~SP gap~. And that SP gap doesn't really stop you from accomplishing things, if you're actually interested in playing the game. EVE is not for everyone, it's a long-term hobby.


EVE online exists for 12 years now... You get about 20M SP per year... (well, may be more thanks to well planned remap/implants but let's keep it to a rounded number for simplicity)

Lets take 3 players :
- a new player
- a middle aged (6 years old)
- an old player

and a starting boost of 20% (less than planned by CCP)


Y+1 : 20M/140M/260M vs 24M/142M/260M an huge rip off of 2M (1.666%) between new and middle or middle and old and 4M between new and old (1.66% again)

Y+5 : 100M/220M/340M vs 115M/227M/340M... again a huge rip off : new-middle : 7.14%, middle-old : 6.2%, new-old : 6.66%

It'll be a 15% increase of SP over 5 years for a new player (less than 7% for a middle aged) for a difference decrease of less than 1.5% per year... This will clearly ruin the game for older players !!!

It looks more like you are like a spoiled brat who want to keeps it's toys for himself... More SP means access to more ships, more weapons, more viable industry choices, ...

The skill gap is way too big as it is now... We are talking about a gap so big that new players will have to play for 12 fuill years to reach the situation where they have HALF of the skill points of older players... This is unreasonnable and undefendable... When you started, you probably only needed something like 2-3 years to do a similar catch-up...
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1110 - 2016-04-11 20:40:29 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
beakerax wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
So this leads us to where we are now, attempting to find ways to create more logins that also don't feel like such a punishment as the skill queue limitations did.

How are dailies less punishing? With the old skillqueue, or even before the skillqueue, if you were going away for a bit or you didn't have time to play, you could put in a long skill and miss nothing.


Dailies are not punishing. You get the reward for the one you do and that's where it ends. You don't lose anything for not logging. The daily idea is wrong for something completely different. The fact that people could not get 100% of the potential benefit should not be an issue for anyone. The player base here is just full of hypocrisy and feel 100% entitled to get 100% return of any opportunity if it involve SP.

If people didn't feel entitled to getting it all, they would not be unhappy about potentially missing some because they work. They FEEL penalized because they think they SHOULD get it all when it reality, they would be getting 100% of the reward they deserve by fulfilling the requirement as many time as they can.

Start feeling penalized when they remove stuff from you if you don't do something, not when they don't give you something if you didn't do the required action.


it is a penalty


the max sp gaind per day is going up by 10k

so if i cant log in i loss 10k sp


just like if i sell something i bought for 1M for 2M but i could have sold it for 3M i lost 1M i did not gain 1M
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#1111 - 2016-04-11 20:45:36 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
You get the reward for the one you do and that's where it ends. You don't lose anything for not logging.
And you get a nice sp reward for having a skill in training rather than having no skill in training. You don't lose anything with an empty skill queue.

Do you see why this argument is asinine?
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1112 - 2016-04-11 20:47:28 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
beakerax wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
So this leads us to where we are now, attempting to find ways to create more logins that also don't feel like such a punishment as the skill queue limitations did.

How are dailies less punishing? With the old skillqueue, or even before the skillqueue, if you were going away for a bit or you didn't have time to play, you could put in a long skill and miss nothing.


Dailies are not punishing. You get the reward for the one you do and that's where it ends. You don't lose anything for not logging. The daily idea is wrong for something completely different. The fact that people could not get 100% of the potential benefit should not be an issue for anyone. The player base here is just full of hypocrisy and feel 100% entitled to get 100% return of any opportunity if it involve SP.

If people didn't feel entitled to getting it all, they would not be unhappy about potentially missing some because they work. They FEEL penalized because they think they SHOULD get it all when it reality, they would be getting 100% of the reward they deserve by fulfilling the requirement as many time as they can.

Start feeling penalized when they remove stuff from you if you don't do something, not when they don't give you something if you didn't do the required action.


it is a penalty


the max sp gaind per day is going up by 10k

so if i cant log in i loss 10k sp


just like if i sell something i bought for 1M for 2M but i could have sold it for 3M i lost 1M i did not gain 1M


With this more than likely soon to be implemented system, you are not entitled to max SP for just having a training queue active. You will be granted X SP/hours for the sub with a potential bonus if you put in the meaningless time to do a meaningless task. It's stupid but still not a penalty. They are not removing any possibility from you because you don't do their meaningless task, you just fail to get a bonus. This is not a penalty.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1113 - 2016-04-11 20:48:41 UTC
beakerax wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
You get the reward for the one you do and that's where it ends. You don't lose anything for not logging.
And you get a nice sp reward for having a skill in training rather than having no skill in training. You don't lose anything with an empty skill queue.

Do you see why this argument is asinine?


Character with no active queue or no skill in an active queue are not penalized, they get exactly what they should. You think you are penalized because you fell entitled to those SP.
Nivin Sajjad
Halal Gunnery
#1114 - 2016-04-11 20:51:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Nivin Sajjad
This idea is absolutely terrible, but if you are dead set on implementing it, then I have some suggestions on how to make it slightly less terrible. First things first though, here's just why this is so terrible.

Players are primed to seek rewards in games. You dangle a worthwhile reward like SP in front of their faces, and players will chase after it. On the other hand, players also hate being forced to perform unengaging repetitive tasks just to get at a reward. If people didn't find current PVE so mind numbing then afktar netflix ticks wouldn't even be a thing. But instead of improving on PVE and making it a more engaging activity in and of itself, you're forcing players to just do more old unfun content. You are literally welding good payoff to bad gameplay, and few things could breed resentment and burnout faster.

Combine this with the fact that players can have multiple accounts, filled with multiple characters, many of whom don't even do combat of any kind or have access to easily killable rats at their location, and you've ended up creating a perverse system that literally pits future enjoyment (more SP down the line that can be used or sold) against present enjoyment (freedom to do/not do whatever I want as it suits me) and are forcing players to choose. Assuming just 1 account and easily killable rats nearby for all your toons. What is the choice placed in front of you for getting the most out of your dailies? It's either spend 1 account x 3 character slots x 5 minutes x 365 days a year on unfulfilling busywork, or miss out on a combined 11 MILLION SP A YEAR being free of this nonsense. 90 hours a year of drudgery, or 11 million missed SP? That's the choices you're presenting to players per account, and it's an incredibly crappy thing to do.

But okay, we get it. You want to add dailies, and come any amount of player outrage or fatigued unsubs, nothing will stop you. Well here's at least some tips to make it slightly better.

1) Make the event actually a daily, instead of a 22 hourly. Tie the cooldown to system date rather than time delay. The first lets players log in for their daily carrot so long as they have free time during any point of the day, while the second locks players into a 2 hour window at exactly the same time each day where they must log in or lose their bonus. I hope you can see which one is less user friendly.

2) Let acquisition of the daily bonus be as painless as possible for all character types. Anything less is going to feel like CCP is punishing specific styles of play that doesn't involve repeatedly shooting rats within arm's reach during every day of the year. Seeing as CCP doesn't want to encourage "leveling up your Raven" as the epitome of sandbox play, then tying the bonus to repetitive rat killing is daft.

3) The goal is to get players to log in, not to log in once per character. Keep in mind that this is EVE and people will try to min/max until they burn themselves out, so bake burnout limiters into your design from the get go. Make the daily bonus claimable once per account, rather than once per character. Players have the flexibility to choose where the bonus goes, without feeling compelled to keep doing the same grind over and over again quite as much.

4) Create events around the bonus that are conductive of sandbox play and interaction, rather than try to trick players towards more social engagement and immersion by handing them a carrot that's most easily reached by solo carebearing in highsec.

So here's what I propose. Make a permanent Frostline like spawn that drops Inferno Neural Accelerant tokens in lowsec and Synthetic Neural Accelerant elsewhere. These tokens can be used remotely just like skill injectors, and will add 8000 or 10000 SP to the first character on each account who uses one for that server day. Excess SNA/INAs can also be redeemed for an extremely tiny amount of Aurum. This lets the tokens always have some intrinsic value, while addressing another player complaint of being nickle and dimed to death by Aurum packages not matching extractor and skin prices. Players who like to hunt for goodies have new PVE to complete, players who like to hunt the hunters have new targets, and players who just want their daily boost will log in more often whenever they have the free time as per CCP's goal, without being force fed endless hours of content they don't want to do. Everyone's, if not happy, then at least less dismal.
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#1115 - 2016-04-11 20:52:12 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Character with no active queue or no skill in an active queue are not penalized, they get exactly what they should. You think you are penalized because you fell entitled to those SP.

And yet the queue was implemented, and there was much rejoicing.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1116 - 2016-04-11 20:52:20 UTC
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:

The skill gap is way too big as it is now... We are talking about a gap so big that new players will have to play for 12 fuill years to reach the situation where they have HALF of the skill points of older players... This is unreasonnable and undefendable... When you started, you probably only needed something like 2-3 years to do a similar catch-up...

There is no such skill gap. 95% of the skills an old character has are not relevant to the hull they are currently flying.
Your total SP is not how powerful your character is, it is how many 'classes' you have trained.
The fact you are basing your argument on this shows you don't understand the EVE SP system and therefore should not be making suggestions on it since you are starting from a flawed understanding to begin with.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1117 - 2016-04-11 21:02:19 UTC
beakerax wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Character with no active queue or no skill in an active queue are not penalized, they get exactly what they should. You think you are penalized because you fell entitled to those SP.

And yet the queue was implemented, and there was much rejoicing.


That does not mean you were penalized for failing the requirement of having an active training queue and an skill queued. Just that CCP wanted us to more easily fulfill one of those requirement.
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#1118 - 2016-04-11 21:09:26 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
That does not mean you were penalized for failing the requirement of having an active training queue and an skill queued. Just that CCP wanted us to more easily fulfill one of those requirement.
CCP Rise wrote:
So this leads us to where we are now, attempting to find ways to create more logins that also don't feel like such a punishment as the skill queue limitations did.

around and around we go
Skade Fryd
Fryd Enterprises
#1119 - 2016-04-11 21:10:46 UTC
I really do not like this idea. I feel like I will be obligated to do this activity to keep up and the problem with that is it just became a chore. Please spend your development time making PvE more enjoyable and interactive and I will log in more on my own, don't add more trivial tasks to complete using the same boring systems.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1120 - 2016-04-11 21:11:02 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
beakerax wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Character with no active queue or no skill in an active queue are not penalized, they get exactly what they should. You think you are penalized because you fell entitled to those SP.

And yet the queue was implemented, and there was much rejoicing.


That does not mean you were penalized for failing the requirement of having an active training queue and an skill queued. Just that CCP wanted us to more easily fulfill one of those requirement.


either way
Quote:

make them build so every day 1 rat adds to your counter but the counter never goes over 30

so say you cant log in for half a month when you do log in your counter is at 15/30 so you can go and kill 15 rats but if you stay logged off for a year its only 30/30 this still incentives logging on but its much more free for the player to do it


this would be a way to adapt dailies to fit your game rather than just copy past and jam it in



is a much less demanding system to get the same resaults as the old skill queue did