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Make Niarja Great

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Author
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#21 - 2016-02-22 05:44:43 UTC
Uedama should be lowsec. It would diminish Jita's galaxy-wide dominance and encourage production growth in the other hubs.

Even better, wtb dynamic sec status.

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Oxide Ammar
#22 - 2016-02-22 08:10:34 UTC
Chopper Rollins wrote:
Get out of hisec.




This, some people don't have the balls to shoot something that definitely will shoot back...Jeez.

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Eternus8lux8lucis
Duckzer Mining Corporation
RAZOR Alliance
#23 - 2016-02-22 08:36:37 UTC
Nivo Green wrote:


I haven't been around that long, but correct me If I am wrong, CCP has shuffled gates before, and the current trade hub situation wasn't always like this (if I remember right, it was even worse). I really wonder if Amarr would die, given the scale of the space surrounding it, but I don't have a degree in spaceship economics so I can't really say I have any idea what I'm talking about. Hek and Dodixie seem to be doing OK despite their distance from Jita, however they still operate on a convenience economy where the only goods that sell there are because someone is making a profit shipping it from Jita. Is that the best any 2nd trade hub will be in EVE? Has it always been like that?


In the beginning of Eve there was a "super highway" system to get between the empires. Yulai was the central point in this highway and was the first major hub in game. The reason most of the others sprang up was actually mission runners when CCP introduced missions. Each hub is a central point for high level agents under the old agent system running L4 agents. Jita was of course Caldari Navy, Dodixie was Fed Navy, Rens is Brutor Tribe, Hek was Boundless Creations, a minmatar R&D corp. Amarr imo was kind of one of the oddities but I would assume still follows the same pattern. As L4 mission runners congregated people got the brilliant idea to supply them with stuff and the hubs we see today sprang up, especially after CCP changed the super highway system to the gate system we have today.

I am uncertain of the exact time frame of when it was changed but it was fairly early in the game 2003-2004ish. Maybe someone else can chime in with that info.


The reality is that CCP can change gates at any time to recreate the map, they just dont for efficiency issues. What would be interesting would be such things as player made gates, smugglers gates or other gates made by the empires that may or may not work all the time, or just be disabled or destructible by enemy faction warfare players in high sec enemy empire space as a way to bring the FW fight into empire more often as alternate routes that players can use.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#24 - 2016-02-22 11:43:06 UTC
Nivo Green wrote:
I agree that it doesn't probably make much sense for caldari/amarr space to be basically detached, but isn't it perhaps even stranger that their spaces are only connected by this single large gate? Maybe, like someone else said, a few gates should be added to create 25-30 jump trips between Jita and Amarr.
I just don;t see the benefit of it. Just make freighters warp slower in Niarja if the idea is to just make the game as boring as possible for freighters pilots or remove the ability to post orders in Amarr if the idea is to kill off that trade hub. That's all the change would effectively do. It wouldn't create content as it wouldn't be an option for most people shipping stuff, so they'd simply be paying more for the same trips.

Nivo Green wrote:
I haven't been around that long, but correct me If I am wrong, CCP has shuffled gates before, and the current trade hub situation wasn't always like this (if I remember right, it was even worse). I really wonder if Amarr would die, given the scale of the space surrounding it, but I don't have a degree in spaceship economics so I can't really say I have any idea what I'm talking about. Hek and Dodixie seem to be doing OK despite their distance from Jita, however they still operate on a convenience economy where the only goods that sell there are because someone is making a profit shipping it from Jita. Is that the best any 2nd trade hub will be in EVE? Has it always been like that?
It's not something they frequently do and there has to be a good reason to do it beyond "this could be interesting". Amarr wouldn't die off completely, but it would lose it's position as second biggest trade hub and rapidly deplete in number of players as somewhere else would gain population. I imagine Dodixie would grow into the second largest hub and other than shifting a bunch of players about much would continue as ever it did.

Nivo Green wrote:
Finally, I don't expect anyone would be bringing thier freighters to lowsec Niarja, let's not be silly. A lot of people are making assumptions about motivation for such a change. I don't really care who this change would affect, as I think it would affect most people. Are there people who live purely in null and don't give a **** about Niarja? Yes. Are there lots of people who live in Null/Low Sec/Wormholes that rely on Jita always being very close? Also yes. Perhaps Jita being accessible from most of highsec (read: amarr space) is a design necessity at this point and removing that shortcut gate would destroy amarr space and all of the amarr carebears would funnel into caldari space.
I think you're thinking of this a bit backwards. I don't think Jita would be even remotely affected by a change like this. Nothing in Jita relies on the proximity of Amarr, rather the population of Amarr space relies on it's proximity to Jita. If that were cut off and it were now a 30 jump trip, it would just mean those people would move to other regions 8 jumps out of Jita.

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Andrew Space
Doomheim
#25 - 2016-02-22 12:36:17 UTC
Build a wall! Make the carebears pay for it!
Nivo Green
Perkone
Caldari State
#26 - 2016-02-22 18:06:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Nivo Green
Andrew Space wrote:
Build a wall! Make the carebears pay for it!


Andrew Space CSM 11, also lets ban all minmatar from empire space until we can sort this mess out.

Lucas Kell wrote:
I think you're thinking of this a bit backwards. I don't think Jita would be even remotely affected by a change like this. Nothing in Jita relies on the proximity of Amarr, rather the population of Amarr space relies on it's proximity to Jita. If that were cut off and it were now a 30 jump trip, it would just mean those people would move to other regions 8 jumps out of Jita.


You are almost certainly correct. Though deep down I wish Amarr could stand on its own. When I was in a larger wormhole group, I know we sourced a lot from Amarr because wormholes are often open closer to Amarr than Jita, but anything really expensive or bulk would of course come from jita. Everyone else however likely does not care about proximity to Amarr, really only Jita matters.

I wonder if an Index based tax like what was introduced for Industry/Science in Crius would benefit the mission running crowd. You know, high mission taxes in areas where more missions are being done. I know a lot of people don't really care to talk about mission running, but a sizeable portion of the EVE playerbase 9-5's missions in highsec space.
Barrett Fruitcake
Doomheim
#27 - 2016-02-22 18:16:42 UTC
Let's make it so Nivo Green is unable to buy anything from a Hi Sec market and must haul all his gear through Rancer in a T1 hauler, repeatedly, like Ground Hog Day.

Adunh Slavy
#28 - 2016-02-23 03:48:05 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
They said empire, not country.


Every state is an empire. To say other wise denies sovereignty over one's self.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Pix Severus
Empty You
#29 - 2016-02-23 04:10:49 UTC
Make Jita lowsec.

Yes, I went there.

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Matarella
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2016-02-23 10:32:19 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Chances are that it would just kill off the Amarr market and everything else would remain much the same. Unless Uedama went too, hauling would still take place entirely in highsec it would just take longer and cost more. People wouldn't suddenly go rushing their freighters into lowsec en masse.

It doesn't even make sense though if you think abut it, as that would be removing the only direct path between Caldari and Amarr, and since they are friendly with each other it's unlikely they'd be completely detached.


It does not make sense that it is only 0.5 sec status either.

It is the only route connecting the 2 empires. They are allies. And it a huge trade route. The empires should be looking to increase the security on such an important trade route. Especially when so many ships get blown up there.
ISD Fractal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#31 - 2016-02-23 15:04:04 UTC
Moved to Player Features and Ideas Discussion.

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Threm
Funatix Sanctuary
Funatix
#32 - 2016-02-23 18:58:39 UTC
Different things:

(1) There is too much ridiculous ganking in Highsec.
Symptoms: Even nearly empty freighters and jump freighters are ganked for the lools. The level of cost effective ganking covers maybe 70%? of the current hauls.

Reasons: Ganking is too cheap and because this problem had no care for so long time, the funds of the gank alliances are full from the ganks so far.

Cure: Make ganking more expensive that it make sense for precious freighters who did not took care in splitting the haul. Drop it to 10% of the current hauls.

This can be done by faster concord, higher basis tank of the freighter, more fitting opportunities etc. But please do not think three low slots with ridicilous fitting capabilities were the solution!


(2) Jita is dominating the trade market.
Symptoms:
You can get everything there.
There is no margin in trading local content between the trade hubs. One would think that Matarstuff is cheaper in Hek/Rens and other way around.
The other tradehubs just have only a larger gap between buy and sell as an expression of the lower relevance as trade hub.

Reasons:
But there isnt a real relevant region specific stuff
Everyone ships his stuff to Jita.

Cure:
Provide local content specific for a region or change participation of the main elements, such as minerals etc. It would encourage trading.

Make trading more difficult but shorter.
There is no game content in jumping 25 jumps in Highsec.
Let it be 10 Jumps but with a few lowsec inbetween. But as a network of routes not as a pipe like rancer, so that it makes camping not too easy.
Give relevant more High to High wormholes with freighter capability to encourage scanning and rewarding efforts.
Make trading between hubs more necessary and beneficial.

But tbh, that would be tremendous changes, so I doubt its feasible.

Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
#33 - 2016-02-23 19:41:32 UTC
OPs idea sounds vaguely familiar to the "Let's make hisec empires separated by lowsec" idea. If that were to happen you would just see more people using Jump Freighters to move stuff. The cost for a Freighter would drop, and you would see less freighter ganks. Jump fuel would increase. Cost for all items would go up because of risk. Hisec dwellers would just have specific mission ships in each of the empires and use Jump Clones to move around, same for incursion runners.

As for market hubs, Market Hubs are a player created dynamic. CCP didn't make Jita a main trade hub, the player-base did. You would have to make it profitable for other trade hubs to become a thing.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#34 - 2016-02-23 21:17:35 UTC
So when did CCP state that it was their design intent to make Jita/Amarr/Dodixie/Rens/Hek the main trade hubs? Have you ever thought that this would simply cause the Amarr trade hub to move so it wouldn't take 45 jumps to trade?

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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#35 - 2016-02-23 22:37:05 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
So when did CCP state that it was their design intent to make Jita/Amarr/Dodixie/Rens/Hek the main trade hubs? Have you ever thought that this would simply cause the Amarr trade hub to move so it wouldn't take 45 jumps to trade?



This. CCP didn't make the hubs. They exist because of the players. CCP has actually tried to break up Jita a few times, especially back in the day when Jita crashed the servers routinely due to local traffic.

Making Jita harder won't change that. Players want a "Main" hub, and now Jita is that hub. Jita will remain that hub until the cluster expands and some other system becomes as convenient in the future as Jita is now. Thera maybe.

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Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
#36 - 2016-02-24 05:46:11 UTC
before you cut off Amarr from Jita CCP must upgrade Amarr space to a Caldari level. This include Khanid and Ammatar regions also. Today Amarr space mostly empty.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#37 - 2016-02-24 08:04:04 UTC
Yulai used to be a trade hub. Then the gates were changed and now it isn't. There is nothing stopping this from happening again.

Making shipping between Jita and the other hubs more difficult would encourage local production and sales.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#38 - 2016-02-24 08:39:20 UTC
All this would do is kill the last real market outside of jita
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#39 - 2016-02-24 13:48:53 UTC
Nivo Green wrote:
Does Uedama cause two trade hubs which are extremely far apart to be practically right next to each other? I honestly don't have much experience with the system, but I have heard of some expensive kills there too. I understand how an idea to make Niarja lowsec might seem an aim to remove the juiciest ganking system in the game, but really there is always someone piloting thier 20bil isk freighter somewhere.

Yes, it does. It makes the travel to 3 trade hubs significantly shorter than taking the long route via Niarja.

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