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Dev Blog: Scanning and Probing Changes in Parallax

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Rain Kaessinde
Liminal Cloudwatch
#301 - 2015-11-12 17:44:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain Kaessinde
CCP Goliath wrote:
Tinukeda'ya Naskingar wrote:
Ok... so after some more testing I have few things to say (some of which were said already, but I'll mention it anyway).

1) I do not like the SSM look for only one reason. The displaying of BMs and their stacking. Get rid of the "paddle" and do not let them stack (or drastically reduce the range at which they do so). If you are worried abut their visibility just darken the background. But I do not think that will be an issue. This is something that should be just transferred from the old map (basically I'd like to see the old map look with the proper sun in the middle)

...


1. I understand that there will be people who just cannot get behind the new map aesthetically. I don't particularly understand your particular issue with the stacking though - what is it that you don't like?

...

Brackets in space, and on the regular map, do not disappear. If you rotate the camera in such a way that they come into alignment, they simply pass through each other. The list popup only appears when making a selection, and nothing changes in the way the brackets themselves are drawn.

Brackets on the beta map aggressively merge before they can overlap. Rotate the map to align two bookmarks, and watch one of them abruptly vanish as it is absorbed by the other. This is inconsistent with the familiar behavior of brackets in space. It conceals information. And it's visually distracting -- more so for the increased size and complexity of the "paddles", and very much more so when combining numerous bookmarks with frequent, rapid camera shifts (i.e. my life as a w-space scanner).

The stars might lie, but the numbers never do.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#302 - 2015-11-13 05:49:16 UTC
Goliath, not sure if this was reported yet but there seems to be a disconnect between the dscan angle when turning on and off camera align

Test:

1. Have map open. Turn camera align off (for example, to scan probes and pan window)
2. Close map. Open map
3. Turn on camera align
4. Set dscan to 5% and scan a planet with known tower with overview set to show towers and force fields

Here, quiet often, I do not get a hit

5. Close map
6. Open map
7. Repeat dscan to 5% at same planet

Now I do

It isn't 100% repeatable with the above steps but I can pretty consistently get it so that I'm dscanning a planet at 5% or 15% and getting no results. Close map, reopen, and then I get a hit on the same target.
Johnny Splunk
EvE-Scout
EvE-Scout Enclave
#303 - 2015-11-14 00:09:14 UTC
Finally got caught up with the thread. May I suggest a digest of current recognized issues and their status. It's difficult to read through each post and there are a lot of repeated reports now.

Here are some items I don't think have been reported yet.

Marker Priority
When using the old interface something interesting happens that I never noticed prior to the new interface. When I launch my probes all of the markers on the system map dim. This is a subtle feature that shows priority to the task at hand. I'm not saying we need to replicate this, but it's clearly showing that the previous devs understood that some things (markers, etc) should not have priority.

Waypoint Highlighting
When traveling with a destination set, I would like to see the destination/waypoint highlighted. The old interface clearly displayed this. I often find myself traveling with the system map open. I would like to quickly identify my route.

3 Probe Results harder to pinpoint
As previous mentioned, the 3 probe results previously showed two results. I could quickly identify the correct result because it was always the result furthest from the center of my probes. Having some sort of circle slows down reaching a pinpoint.

Scanning Inaccuracies
Most items mentions in this thread are mechanical bugs or parity issues with the old interface. This one is much more serious. It turns out that results from the new interface are not always accurate. The results present an area where the final result should be, but the final result is not. I've personally witnessed this and adds additional scanning time and frustrations. Please watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G02GPDienbk
Minnora
The Milkmen
Churn and Burn
#304 - 2015-11-14 04:34:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Minnora
Can we have the old scanner back please?

It used to take me about a minute per signature, but I just spent over 30 minutes to get ONE. WTF is wrong with this broken piece of code? I've written code and there is NO WAY that I would release something as broken as this to a customer.

You just took away one of the things that I enjoy.
Johnny Splunk
EvE-Scout
EvE-Scout Enclave
#305 - 2015-11-14 19:49:41 UTC
Minnora wrote:
Can we have the old scanner back please?

It used to take me about a minute per signature, but I just spent over 30 minutes to get ONE. WTF is wrong with this broken piece of code? I've written code and there is NO WAY that I would release something as broken as this to a customer.

You just took away one of the things that I enjoy.


The old scanners can be accessed via "General Settings" > Uncheck "Try the New Probe and Directional Scanners"
Pandora Bokks
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
#306 - 2015-11-15 08:16:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Pandora Bokks
CCP Goliath wrote:
Pandora Bokks wrote:
Getting used to the new system will take a while but in general, I think it will be better over time.

I have a question though:

Have you touched scanning mechanics (the math behind it) somehow? I have the strong feeling that it is harder to get results after patch (max skills / full mid-grade virtue clone / rss probes). Funny thing is that it seems especially to be true for the easy sigs that I was able to get an instant hit with 4 AU diameter before.

To add - I would be extremely happy if you made/make probing harder, so this is by no way a complaint.


We haven't touched it at all, but with Brain in a Box it is totally possible that there is something going on with scanning skills, implants, ship hull bonuses, modules and/or charges. My advice is to submit a bug report detailing your observations and the implants, hull, modules, probes, etc. and I'll add it to my aggregating defect.


Thank you for the answer - I will have to do more probing before I would file a petition.
Something different: Can you consider to change the colouring so that only warpable results are green. This would make the colouring more useful.
Alyla By
#307 - 2015-11-15 13:54:50 UTC
I really like the new scanning window. Good job CCP !

There is one little thing bother me still. Back on the old window, you could see easily if the signatures you wanted to probe where in your probe volume or not. Simply said, the red dot was more red when in the probe range and less red outside.

It seems that on the new map all signatures are always to the "less red" version. Would it be possible to get this color difference aswell ?
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#308 - 2015-11-16 09:39:48 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
CCP Goliath,

While I intensely dislike the new scanning map (possibly largely because of some tooltips mumbo jumbo, or maybe just because I am an old dog who does not like learning new tricks), I have to say that I am intensely impressed with the amount of engagement with your userbase in this thread.

With that said, I'm currently attempting to play Eve on a 17-inch laptop screen. Screen real estate is at a premium. Adding a completely separate window for the scanning interface might be nice if I was playing on a 30-inch screen, but it adds no new functionality for me.

As an example of this, the new ability to better aim your d-scan tool seems great. But I literally have a 2x2 inch square of screen left available for me to move my ship to aim it. Between local, the d-scan screen, the overview, my HUD, my chat channel, etc. There just is not any space for me to use the new system effectively.

So, thank you for your efforts. I'll be that curmudgeon who will continue to use the old map and the old scanning system as long as I can.


Why don't you just fullscreen the Solar System map? That way it will pop behind the rest of your UI, much like the old solar system map, and not take up the screen real estate.


What does that gain me versus using the old map? Also, how do you do that? You changed the system, apparently adding new capabilities, but I have not seen any guide or documentation as to how to unlock and use all these new capabilities. All this stuff about hot keys and etc, but absolutely no guide as to how to use it. The old system was relatively intuitive. It came optimized. The new system seems like it could work better with a bunch of adjusting, but I just don't have a reason to go through that pain. Especially not on six different accounts.


Well, apart from the devblog, and the extensive posting I've done to show people how to effectively use the system, we also have a Flight Academy video coming out, showing how to work with feature end-to-end. To fullscreen the window, you use either the window docking options (top right, beside X) or just double click on the header bar as you would with a window in Windows.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#309 - 2015-11-16 09:41:34 UTC
Rain Kaessinde wrote:
Good to hear that the fullscreen toolbar and the two-probe circle problem are being looked at. ^^

On the topic of partial scan results, could split (two-dot/three-probe) signals maybe get some distinction in the map view? Currently, looking at a cloud of red dots, you can't visually tell which are singular and which go together. A unique marker style for split signals (perhaps open circles connected by dashed lines?) would convey this information at a glance.


Interesting idea, but out of scope for the team I think in this pass. Will note it down though!

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#310 - 2015-11-16 09:49:52 UTC
Terranid Meester wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:


I´ve been trying to find an answer for this for 4 days. The best I have is "if my cargo is totally full and I need to get probes off scan", which is the edgiest of the edge cases.


I have a better answer, warp disrupt probes need to be destroyed sometimes so new ones can be launched. Not all probes are scanning ones.


Dictor probes? They don't appear in the probe menu, and aren't destroyable with that button though?

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#311 - 2015-11-16 09:53:21 UTC
Tatsuj Khan wrote:
I just spent a several minutes with the new scanning window and probe/sig panel.

Right away I was dismayed:

1. I couldn't see my blue probe bubbles in the classic solar system window. Where are they?!

2. The highly useful and convenient 'see anomalies' check box on the classic probe/sig panel was missing in the new panel. It can now be accessed by clicking on a pull-down list and selecting it. The Extra steps is NOT good.

Please bring it to the front for one click convenience and ease of use. Other than the main probe buttons, the anomaly check-box is most used for quick intel on a system.


1. The new system is not compatible with the old system. This is by design.
2. You can also just press "1" to auto hide/show anomalies

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#312 - 2015-11-16 09:58:27 UTC
Aivlis Eldelbar wrote:
While messing with different control schemes for the new probing system I ran across something that may or may not be relevant to this discussion:

EVE doesn't recognize lateral movements on the mouse wheel and/or secondary horizontal wheel. I tried mapping mine to the probe range, but found I can't without macroing, even though I'm not assigning any key combos or trying to toe around the EULA, ie: if I map ALT + [ horizontal move of the wheel ] to some unused keyboard key and use that to change probe range everything is fine, but I can't map the wheel itself in the menu.
I realize this is an edge case, but I'd love to hear CCP Goliath's take on it, seeing he's being so nice to us probers lately.


Unfortunately for you I do my forum reading in the morning, and I haven't had my coffee so please bear with me :)

Do you mean you're trying to map mousewheeling to resize the probes? As in, I mousewheel up, and probes resize, just like Alt but without the Alt? I don't think that's something our team could easily fix in the time we have, sorry Sad

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#313 - 2015-11-16 10:00:00 UTC
Lei Volund wrote:
ok so ive gotten used to new scanner, and use it a lot, quite like it now the directional has a toggle, just a couple of niggles


1. The aim was to move the 'destroy probes' button away so it wont be pressed by accident, but you have moved it next to the most used buton, the system map. can this change?

2. On system map zooming out with the mouse wheel is up, yet zooming out with probes when alt is held down is mouse wheel down, feels disjointed.

3. if a new sig pops up while scanning all progress is lost and it goes back a step for some reason, hard to replicate, only happend once to me


1. We're really tempted to just take it out altogether.

2. Yeah it's a bit weird. Need to sync up with the team to see if we're doing anything about it

3. What do you mean "goes back a step"?

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#314 - 2015-11-16 10:00:37 UTC
Ragori Mitternacht wrote:
I love the directional scanner it makes things easier to spot. but I am having problems with the probe scanner. I can resize the bubbles but I can't move them to where I need them to be. I followed the directions others have given me in game and nothign changes. How do I move the probes in the new interface?


Do you mean the box isn't appearing at all? Even when you press Shift or Alt?

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#315 - 2015-11-16 10:02:07 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Another thing that I find a disimprovement is the removal of the split kilometer/AU distance meter in the dscan window. With the old system, it was easy to see at a glance the km and AU to compare them or change km or AU manually immediately, now you need to press a button to have the same functionality or to switch between the measure units to manipulate them. That's unacceptable.


What are your use cases here? In what ways do you use KM/AU comparison as to make this system unworkable? Genuinely interested.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#316 - 2015-11-16 10:05:34 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
Goliath, not sure if this was reported yet but there seems to be a disconnect between the dscan angle when turning on and off camera align

Test:

1. Have map open. Turn camera align off (for example, to scan probes and pan window)
2. Close map. Open map
3. Turn on camera align
4. Set dscan to 5% and scan a planet with known tower with overview set to show towers and force fields

Here, quiet often, I do not get a hit

5. Close map
6. Open map
7. Repeat dscan to 5% at same planet

Now I do

It isn't 100% repeatable with the above steps but I can pretty consistently get it so that I'm dscanning a planet at 5% or 15% and getting no results. Close map, reopen, and then I get a hit on the same target.


How are you scanning the planet (and do you mean moon? Getting a tower with a 5% planet scan sounds like an imprecise science) - are you using the radial menu to line up or are you manually positioning the camera? Do you have camera bobbing on perchance?

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#317 - 2015-11-16 10:08:40 UTC
Johnny Splunk wrote:
Finally got caught up with the thread. May I suggest a digest of current recognized issues and their status. It's difficult to read through each post and there are a lot of repeated reports now.

Here are some items I don't think have been reported yet.

Marker Priority
When using the old interface something interesting happens that I never noticed prior to the new interface. When I launch my probes all of the markers on the system map dim. This is a subtle feature that shows priority to the task at hand. I'm not saying we need to replicate this, but it's clearly showing that the previous devs understood that some things (markers, etc) should not have priority.

Waypoint Highlighting
When traveling with a destination set, I would like to see the destination/waypoint highlighted. The old interface clearly displayed this. I often find myself traveling with the system map open. I would like to quickly identify my route.

3 Probe Results harder to pinpoint
As previous mentioned, the 3 probe results previously showed two results. I could quickly identify the correct result because it was always the result furthest from the center of my probes. Having some sort of circle slows down reaching a pinpoint.

Scanning Inaccuracies
Most items mentions in this thread are mechanical bugs or parity issues with the old interface. This one is much more serious. It turns out that results from the new interface are not always accurate. The results present an area where the final result should be, but the final result is not. I've personally witnessed this and adds additional scanning time and frustrations. Please watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G02GPDienbk


1. We're taking another pass at layering

2. I feel like you're talking about the Beta map rather than the Probe/Directional/Solar System map, is that right? If so, right now we are only focusing on the latter.

3. 2-dots are still a thing in the new system. Not 100% sure what you mean. The circle and the 2-dots are different and both occur in the new system (though there might be an issue with the circle)

4. I'll check out the video later when I get some time. Thanks.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#318 - 2015-11-16 10:10:14 UTC
Pandora Bokks wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Pandora Bokks wrote:
Getting used to the new system will take a while but in general, I think it will be better over time.

I have a question though:

Have you touched scanning mechanics (the math behind it) somehow? I have the strong feeling that it is harder to get results after patch (max skills / full mid-grade virtue clone / rss probes). Funny thing is that it seems especially to be true for the easy sigs that I was able to get an instant hit with 4 AU diameter before.

To add - I would be extremely happy if you made/make probing harder, so this is by no way a complaint.


We haven't touched it at all, but with Brain in a Box it is totally possible that there is something going on with scanning skills, implants, ship hull bonuses, modules and/or charges. My advice is to submit a bug report detailing your observations and the implants, hull, modules, probes, etc. and I'll add it to my aggregating defect.


Thank you for the answer - I will have to do more probing before I would file a petition.
Something different: Can you consider to change the colouring so that only warpable results are green. This would make the colouring more useful.


Please file a Bug Report rather than a petition (Support ticket) for issues of this nature. We're looking at coloring for the next release.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#319 - 2015-11-16 10:10:51 UTC
Alyla By wrote:
I really like the new scanning window. Good job CCP !

There is one little thing bother me still. Back on the old window, you could see easily if the signatures you wanted to probe where in your probe volume or not. Simply said, the red dot was more red when in the probe range and less red outside.

It seems that on the new map all signatures are always to the "less red" version. Would it be possible to get this color difference aswell ?



Yup we're doing that.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#320 - 2015-11-16 10:12:01 UTC
So, sorry for the lengthy absence from the thread, folks. I was down with flu last week. Up to date now - please don't be upset if your post didn't get a direct answer, I can't spend as much time answering all the posts as I did before now that I'm playing catch-up, but be assured I read it!

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath