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New Camera Controls

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Aivlis Eldelbar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#41 - 2015-11-14 17:06:23 UTC
Zappity wrote:
While you are atvitat it can we PLEASE have the option to reduce/remove that awful white lock range ball from the tactical overlay? I'd love for it to be replaced with a small tick mark at the appropriate distance.


This!
Combined with those annoying dust clouds we still haven't got a toggle for (no, the one you made isn't useful, it disables a bunch of other unrelated effects too), it can white out the whole screen.
Aivlis Eldelbar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2015-11-14 17:17:16 UTC
Another little observation: the orbit camera origin is a tad too far off the bow of some ships, making us actually miss out on the new nice engine effects, as they can't be put into the frame without collapsing local or the overview :P
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#43 - 2015-11-14 18:28:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
Tried all 3 options. They all broke hard. Effective manual piloting is impossible in all modes. My ship literally started flying off in random directions. Zooming out in orbit mode causes the entire camera mode to change to a fixed camera mode which did not follow my ship.

In orbit mode, manual piloting is impossible. My ship would just suddenly go off in the opposite direction of where I was clicking.

Shifting to fixed mode while in warp breaks hard. Graphics go totally bonkers. Unusable.

The Tracking Camera mode in which you select an object and then the camera points at that object is completely broken. It turns on, the bracket appears, and then nothing. There is no longer an option to even turn it on and off on the UI. Fortunately, I had ti set to a keyboard short cut.

Trying to manual pilot in first person mode is extremely slow. If I used the manual piloting keyboard shortcuts (up, down, left, and right), I could not follow anything. Too slow to turn. Useless.

I was not afforded the opportunity to opt-in to this. It was automatically selected from the start and I cannot find any option to revert to the old camera.

I was trying to tackle a drifter BS with a daredevil and could not keep with him because the new camera modes made it completely impossible to stay within range, if I could get in range at all.

edit: camera parallax is a bit extreme. Can that be toned down a little? It obviously distorts planets and moons, making them look freakish.

Please do not push these camera modes to live any time soon. They need a lot of work.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#44 - 2015-11-14 19:23:16 UTC
why are the zoom in and out revered in tach and cinema view?

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#45 - 2015-11-14 23:23:23 UTC
Tried it today (Yay new launcher making Sisi so easy to get into, big props to that team.)
First thing I tried to do in tactical view. Edge scroll. Can we please have this. If we have a Homeworld RTS like camera, RTS like camera controls make it much more natural.

Second thing I discovered, panning forwards and backwards does not keep you at the same 'altitude' but goes up and down if your camera is tilted. This felt very odd to me, I would rather my 'zoom' control height while forward/back/left/right all pan flat along the plane of the grid. Arbitrary directions rather than relative directions basically.

First person view. Could we get it from a fixed point on the ship please, so most ships we can actually see a portion of the ship still, would make it easier referencing things. Also very very hard to control and the HUD doesn't give an accurate idea of motion with the tilt on a slower ship.

Changing between views. Does not save the state of the tactical overview, please do so.
ApolloF117 HUN
The All-Seeing Eye
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#46 - 2015-11-15 09:40:50 UTC
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:
Manual piloting (double-clicking in space) is next to impossible as it is right now:
Orbital camera has bad situational awareness due to horrible FOV and inability to zoom out. Having to constantly compensate for the automatic camera movement is also annoying.
Tactical camera doesn't follow your ship and camera movement feels sluggish.

Solution should be to add a 4th option for the current camera on TQ and only change between camera modes with the buttons.

Besides that, it's all very impressive and I can't wait for it to go live!



THIS
ApolloF117 HUN
The All-Seeing Eye
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#47 - 2015-11-15 09:50:31 UTC
CCP Burger wrote:
First person camera
Ever dreamt about flying your ship in first person? Here you go!
This is us nerding out after hours, not super many use cases for it but this opens up for a lot of new possibilities
Deck up with some afterburner and try it with WASD for full effect


ever dreamt about going a bit more deep and put the modules araund the interface you created?:D
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#48 - 2015-11-15 10:31:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
From what I have seen these 3 camera modes should be like that (simple):

1 Default (drone cam): Camera that is like today on tranquility, no changes. Practical and informative.

3 Cinematic (drone cam): Aka drone first person. Camera with options to completely detach center of view, set new angle of view, vector and speed of movement of camera. More glitter but more complicated and less practical for situational avareness, more for nice pictures and views.

3 On ship camera: First person wiev, just like seen from camera on the front of the ship, with hotkeys or this round menu option to change view from back, sides up and down.

Quote:
It seems like something with the way the new lens effect works makes the whole thing feel like I'm flying around in a textured sphere


You are. But its actually a box. That is why they need to stick to default field of view with defaut camera that is now on tranquility. It would also fix the "smeared" view with multi monitor setups.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Tinukeda'ya Naskingar
Minmatar Expeditions ltd.
#49 - 2015-11-15 16:22:17 UTC
So far I like the "feel" of the cameras, tho' I did not test too much yet. What I'm missing is the ability to look around in the first person view. That would be cool and would make that cam useable for some slower action.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -  Arthur C. Clarke
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2015-11-15 20:21:43 UTC
what on earth was wrong with the old camera. This new camera is awful. Cant zoom out far enough to provide good situational awarness and manual piloting. zoomed in is awful as the camera is not on top of my ship.

The old camera should be default with the new tactical and FP modes as optional modes to switch to.

It looks flashy but thats about it.

also middle mouse button screws the camera badly

So Much Space
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#51 - 2015-11-16 00:43:23 UTC
So, most of my complaints have already been listed, but I'll just throw them up here with my additional gripes.

1) Manual piloting is impossible with the new cameras. This is a BIG problem.

2) The tactical camera feels really, really sluggish compared to just zooming out via the normal, old camera. Speeds need to be increased on this camera mode (or made customizable by each pilot).

3) I personally leave the tactical overlay on at all times on all of my clients, and have done so for years. I find it to be very helpful. Switching between tactical and orbital cameras doesn't save the previous state of the tactical overlay. IE: I zoom out to the tactical view and zoom back in afterwards, I have to re-enable the tactical overlay each time. Please save the state of the tactical overlay being enabled or disabled when switching between views.

4) Presently, at least on my client and a few others who were with me on SISI today, the tactical view drags everything and its mother that's on grid with you into warp and then turns everything into an amorphous blob. As much as I found warping with a station with me to be amusing...yeah, needs some fixing.

5) I won't be using the first-person camera ever. I don't like the idea that if I zoom in too far using the orbital camera that I'll have to snap into the first-person, then take time to snap back out to orbital. Can we get the option of disabling first person if we so choose?

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#52 - 2015-11-16 01:06:42 UTC
Some unsorted thoughts

Camera zoom speed in orbit camera is far slower then it was before, it should be changed back to how it was

Move speed in tactical camera is too fast makes it hard to control
actually I got used to it its fine now just when trying to get close to something it feels too fast, but I think that will be solved once a more obvious way to go into orbit camera on another ship is added

Rotation of the tactical camera should be centered around the view port and not around an arbitrary point in space, just feels weird
Edit: Oh it changes depending on the distance to your ship while not actually centered on your ship but on a random point around it
The tactical camera should only be centered around a point is space when that point is a ship or when I just zoomed out into tactical

The orbit camera goes really far away from ship when warping with a ship that has high warp speed (this might also be exacerbated by flying a small ship like a shuttle)

When zooming in on your ship from tactical into orbit the camera zooms to the closest zoom level

The transition points for zooming into tactical and into orbit are not at the same distance, they should be however

Using LMB+RMB to zoom does not let you transition between tactical and orbital,

I feel like that while in tactical view a double click on an object should perform "look at" instead of making my ship approach, yes alt+click does that but its also about not accidentally moving my ship without noticing

When looking at a small object like a drone and then looking at another small drone like object that is far away, the camera transition is quite slow

A "go back to your own ship" button is missing

I feel like the orbit camera should be more like a "scenic filter" option and the tactical camera should be standard and used at all zoom levels and just have a "free movement" option

Look at doesn't work outside of 250km even though I can get my camera there manually

Camera rotation should be true to the mouse cursor, right now it is slower, also maybe just freeze the cursor in place when moving so it doesn't end up in the corner of the screen

While in tactical putting the cursor over an object and then zooming in should zoom in to that object without moving the mouse off of the object

The square around the tactical overlay is very obvious now and not a bit prettier, also the you can see the pixel on the white part, not pretty either

The first person zoom should be a lot smoother

"Look at" in first person mode should align the ship to that object without accelerating

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#53 - 2015-11-16 03:44:19 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
From what I have seen these 3 camera modes should be like that (simple):

1 Default (drone cam): Camera that is like today on tranquility, no changes. Practical and informative.

3 Cinematic (drone cam): Aka drone first person. Camera with options to completely detach center of view, set new angle of view, vector and speed of movement of camera. More glitter but more complicated and less practical for situational avareness, more for nice pictures and views.

3 On ship camera: First person wiev, just like seen from camera on the front of the ship, with hotkeys or this round menu option to change view from back, sides up and down.

Quote:
It seems like something with the way the new lens effect works makes the whole thing feel like I'm flying around in a textured sphere


You are. But its actually a box. That is why they need to stick to default field of view with defaut camera that is now on tranquility. It would also fix the "smeared" view with multi monitor setups.


Quite certainly aware of that. The point is, the old camera worked in such a way as to disguise that fact by not effecting backgrounds during normal camera zoom. The new camera fails to do so and as a result makes the textured sphere/box apparent and its due to more than FOV. With old camera you could achieve the same effect by holding the right mouse button. A "feature" that is usefull for getting an enlarged look at distant objects like carolines star. When it is applied to all cameras however it ruins the illusion.

Daemun of Khanid
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2015-11-16 11:35:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Khan Wrenth
I'll voice some of the same concerns as others. I'm not going to go through the laundry list of bugs that happened while I simply flew around on the test server because I'm assuming anything so common as the camera and UI crashing upon using a stargate must be getting worked on already.

So, aside from the bugs, when the new camera controls work, they are terrible. Orbit seems to have no practical application other than causing seasickness. Camera movements while the ship is moving are really disorienting. The movements and zooms are also very laggy. I see no function or purpose for this mode, just the regression of a camera that used to work perfectly fine. Am I to believe this is done on purpose?

The first person mode...I'm sorry but I can't help but grin from ear to ear and get all giddy over it. It's completely irrational but damn it's fun. I have no idea what to use this for other than lining up bumps with Machs, but damn, I too am geeking out over this. First-person view mode is a favorite function of mine from vehicle games, including and especially Ace Combat. I'm sure we can't get cockpit views and this is the best it'll be, and I accept that very heartily and I can't wait to have this on TQ. Will this function have right-click functionality for when I want to briefly look around? You know, like the classic camera style controls?

The tactical camera has good promise. I can easily see it becoming a staple of commanders. Needs refinement...I'll assume at some point it is going to have a checkbox/option akin to the new map for focusing on current location? Because during battle it'll be way to easy for that thing to get too off center and I'd hate to have to rotate through camera functions just to get it to re-center on me again.

In summary, get rid of orbit camera, kudos to the rest, and the most important thing is that you said these camera controls are opt-in (or simply change the orbit camera button to the normal camera button). Now if only such wisdom had been around when the UI got nerfed months back. Where are my custom colors again...?

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Cloned Mark
SergalJerk
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#55 - 2015-11-16 15:32:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Cloned Mark
Okay, so my impressions:
1) First person view is AWESOME. It's really useful for bombing and MJD operation.

2) Tactical mode is nice, but it lacks something like fixed center on my ship, as it is now. I think there must be a button to let camera go free-flight, but centered on a ship is a nice default mode.

3) New ship view - it's completely useless for situation awareness.
Changing field of view and camera movement with panning is confusing and causes dizziness. It looks nice, but in fast changing situations camera must be fixed as I want it, I need that exact angle and zoom, no panning, no angle changes, no center movement. Otherwise, it distorts my perception of gameplay situation.
New camera movement lacks precision and feels like it has much more inertial movement, than it was before.
And this automatic switching - really no. I, maybe, like automatic FPV switching when zooming too close, but tactical view has to be a separate button to click.

A nice idea - try to implement new settings for camera, where we can change variables of camera parameters with sliders. "Panning", "automatoc field of view adjustments", "camera movement inertia", all those things.
So if I set all to 0 - I'll have my old camera as I like it. People who like new SiSi camera may have these settings at MAX. Some average values allowed too, for someone who wants a little less panning for exampe.
IDK, if this is possible with the way camera code works now, but seems a nice way to make everybody happy.
CCP Burger
C C P
C C P Alliance
#56 - 2015-11-16 15:56:17 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Burger
Hey all,
Thank you for your feedback!
We just pushed an update to SiSi, here are the highlights

  • The feature is OPT-IN now (settings > general settings > experimental features > try the new camera)
  • Zooming doesn’t trigger state change
  • Center button freak out has been fixed
  • Camera sensitivity slider in settings (settings > graphics) (setting camera speed to fast will mimic the old camera)

Orbit (alt + 2)

  • The ship center offset decreases the further you zoom out
  • Zoom and rotate more responsive (still tweaking the number)
  • We’ve re-implemented the track camera and mapped to shift+alt+left-click

Marquee

  • Select: shift + left mouse
  • Look-at: alt + left mouse
  • Target: ctrl + left mouse
  • Multi select, look at and target will hopefully make it in mid-December

Known issues

  • In tactical; when looking-at objects outside look-at range multiple times, camera body moves out each time
  • Warping in tactical is broken

We are hoping to push updates daily this week, so keep the feedback coming!
Cloned Mark
SergalJerk
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#57 - 2015-11-16 16:16:59 UTC
CCP Burger wrote:
Hey all,
Thank you for your feedback!
We just pushed an update to SiSi, here are the highlights
...
  • Camera sensitivity slider in settings (settings > graphics) (setting camera speed to fast will mimic the old camera)


    • Now that's what I'm talking about, can you add some sliders for other parameters, field of view and other new stuff?
    So we can experiment with them and find combination which we like, and slide them all to lowest values if we want same old camera back. Or set them max for full cinematic effects you guys added.

    I mean, why change parameters' values from patch to patch and gather feedback, seeking for optimal "less-tears-in-feedback-possibly-achievable", if you can just add sliders and let players tweak all their camera options on their own?
    Sho Menao
    Oblivion Watch
    HYDRA RELOADED
    #58 - 2015-11-16 17:44:41 UTC
    Doomchinchilla wrote:
    You really should have a 4th option to allow us to keep the old camera at all times. Most times for smaller gang pvp you don't want the camera detached from yourself, I can't see ever wanting first person mode and the orbit camera feels more for people that are making videos vs. looking for optimal knowledge of their surroundings.

    When I pvp I'm always fully zoomed out with the tacitcal overlay on, I don't want to be zoomed in at any point looking at my ship as it doesn't help with positioning. And I don't want the camera to ever uncenter from my ship so I lose perspective in a fight.



    Just wanted to echo this point. I base almost the entirety of my positional awareness and maneuvering on having my ship in the center of the screen. I see no reason to ever phase out the current camera mode.
    Ganthrithor
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #59 - 2015-11-16 17:46:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
    These changes could be interesting as part of the advanced / filmmaker camera options, but are absolutely awful for normal gameplay.

    FPV: useless, but kind of interesting? It would be more useful if you could mouse-fly (click in the center of the HUD to activate, then drag the cursor in the direction you want to turn), as it would be a good casual way to fly a ship, and I can't see ever using FPV for combat anyway.

    New Orbit Camera: very cinematic-looking, and would be a wonderful filmmaker's tool. Absolutely, ridiculously, completely awful in every way for normal gameplay: the field of vision and vanishing depth perception is woefully inadequate for maintaining situational awareness, the zolley effect while zooming in and out is horrible (again, for normal gamplay, potentially cool for making movies), and the combination of zolleying and the camera shifting axes as you zoom + rotate gives actually gives me motion sickness from the un-commanded movements. Also you can no longer right-click and drag to free-look, which is a feature I actually use a lot on TQ.

    New Tactical Camera: I guess the ability to decouple the camera axis from your ship and move it around is a requirement for the new fighter interface? It's kind of cool, but in every other respect the new tactical camera is worse than the current one: the auto-framing as you move into tactical mode is annoying, and all the camera controls feel like they're stuck in molasses after the normal camera (you have to drag the mouse a disproportionately large distance just to rotate the camera, or spin the scroll wheel a long way to zoom). All the inputs feel misjudged and laggy.

    I'm extremely glad these camera features will be opt-in. Like I said, they've got cool novelty value and will be wonderful for EVE filmmakers, but for everyday use they're kind of an abomination. The current camera works a thousand times better for regular interactions / combat; a camera you have only partial control over (that keeps changing the orientation of the camera and zooming etc without your consent) is a recipe for disaster as far as situational awareness is concerned. If these new camera configurations were made mandatory, there is no question that I would immediately quit the game: you can't have fun playing a game that makes you feel sick to your stomach.
    Aivlis Eldelbar
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #60 - 2015-11-16 18:01:44 UTC
    The latest patch on SISI appears to have broken hardener and booster effects, at least on my end.

    Could we please have an option to anchor the tactical camera to our ship, so it behaves like the current one?