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New Camera Controls

First post
Author
Friedman
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#61 - 2015-11-16 18:42:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Friedman
Hello,

I also want to add my feedback and proposals to this thread as the camera is one of the most elemental gameplay tools that has to work at any cost:


  • The FOV of the new orbital camera looks nice, but is, as my foreposters already mentioned, completely unplayable like this. It should be by default have the FOV of the old camera and I would recommend to add the FOV settings as an optional slider. Then people can use this for moviemaking, but the camera can be used for normal gameplay by default.

  • Please add the old tracking camera options back in (Custom/centered). Otherwise d-scanning without the new beta dscan is nigh impossible. The option you added in the last patch is not enough as it doesn't provide a centered camera like the old tracking camera.

  • The First person camera is nice but could be better used for casual flying if you removed the movement where the camera "tilts" with your ship when you are turning. You can show that the ship is "tilting" on the HUD in the middle of the screen still. The problem with the "tilting" is on the one hand that it is a bit nouseous. Further people coming from 6DOF controls could have problems using the FP camera because when you turn you would expect that you need to press the up-button to continue the turn instead of continously holding the left key.

  • The camera should remember in which mode you have been after a session change.


I hope this is helpful! As far I have seen the rest has already been pretty much covered by other people.

Best,

Friedman
Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2015-11-16 21:20:35 UTC
I have to admit, love first person view.

It's completely useless for combat gameplay, but it's still awesome for snapshots, auto piloting, mining, scouting (sitting on gates), etc.

I'd probably make a very short video on how to use it.

Yaay!!!!

Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#63 - 2015-11-17 01:07:50 UTC
CCP Burger wrote:
Hey all,
Thank you for your feedback!
We just pushed an update to SiSi, here are the highlights

  • The feature is OPT-IN now (settings > general settings > experimental features > try the new camera)
  • Zooming doesn’t trigger state change
  • Center button freak out has been fixed
  • Camera sensitivity slider in settings (settings > graphics) (setting camera speed to fast will mimic the old camera)

Orbit (alt + 2)

  • The ship center offset decreases the further you zoom out
  • Zoom and rotate more responsive (still tweaking the number)
  • We’ve re-implemented the track camera and mapped to shift+alt+left-click

Marquee

  • Select: shift + left mouse
  • Look-at: alt + left mouse
  • Target: ctrl + left mouse
  • Multi select, look at and target will hopefully make it in mid-December

Known issues

  • In tactical; when looking-at objects outside look-at range multiple times, camera body moves out each time
  • Warping in tactical is broken

We are hoping to push updates daily this week, so keep the feedback coming!


Any response from devs concerning zoom effecting the background starfield? I'd love to utilize the new camera for cinematic effect but with the zoom effect on starfield I won't touch these camera's with someone else's 10ft pole.

Daemun of Khanid

Christopher Abscons
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2015-11-17 01:34:20 UTC
I've been looking forward to trying the new camera functionality ever since hearing of it. I personally think it adds a lot to the game. Of course, it still has a lot to iron out, much of what's been mentioned already, but I'm glad you're putting effort into this.

Some things that immediately jumped out to me:

I enjoyed the first person view, and already saw myself using it a lot when jumping to stations and casually flying around.
Navigation in first person was pretty bad, though.

Manual click flying took far too long to perform in first person. It would be usable, and would still be great for immersion, if you could hold right click and view the surroundings, double left click to approach, and release right click to snap back to center. Or a double right click to snap to center. There are options.
It would be even better if the HUD was detached from the center of the screen while right click viewing, while still attached to the direction the ship is facing. Even 180 degree viewing would keep it usable, and would even look great if you could see parts of your ship normally or if they came into view when looking around in first person, which I think is necessary, depending on where the camera is docked in relation to the ship. I think having a part of the ship visible in this mode would be good for reference and immersion. Although there are no cockpits, since you're stuck in a pod, there are obviously windows on the ships (probably for the crew, if this is correct? https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Eden_crew_guidelines ). These obvious 'bridge' windows could be the points where the cameras are docked.
It would also be nice to have an opacity slider for the HUD. It's very nice to have for the first person camera, but I kept wanting it a little less visible, and I didn't want to Ctrl+F9 just for that.
Flying with manual keybinds was fun for me.
Also, I couldn't see my turret effects in first person view when firing at anything I was aligned to, nor was there any sound effects attached. This may be something else your working on that wasn't mentioned, but I just thought it was important enough to let it be known. I did only try it with a blaster and a salvager, though, so it could be that I didn't test it enough.

I loved the depth the FOV adjustments gave, and how it adjusted to zoom levels, but I really agree with everyone that this, along with being able to center the camera on your ship, should be optional. I can really see some great video footage coming from all of this.

My camera immediately switches back to my ship when looking at an exploding ship. This was changed on the regular camera a short while ago to hang for a second before shifting back to the ship, in order to marvel at the explosions that will never be good enough when the exploding ship disappears.

Something else to note, I just tried the Shift+Alt+Left click camera tracking that was changed recently and found it really unresponsive. It's also locked to the center of the screen, instead of where you place the custom tracking indicator. Please just keep the original camera follow function.
Also, the ability to right click view in Orbit camera.

A huge thank you to marquee selection. I can't wait to see it complete.

All in all, I absolutely love how the changes affect the sense of scale and cinematic quality, but completely agree that these should be optional. I'm the type to stare at the stars and love anything immersive and shiny, so I'll probably keep them on more times than not. It all looks especially great with the new engine effects and brightness set almost all the way down, both things I love that have been added.

Nice job so far.
Ezio Dicostanzo
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#65 - 2015-11-17 07:43:12 UTC
Hey CCP, while everyone is, as usual when you put up something new, whining and complaining, I'll just say that the new camera rocks :) that little change just makes the game sweet looking, 2015 style (with the help of new propulsion effects).
Keep the cinematic looking camera, the smooth scroll and the fact that we can wonder around grid which enables me to finally understand wtf is going on on my grid !
Amarisen Gream
Pleasant Peninsula Productions
Digital Vendetta
#66 - 2015-11-17 08:55:53 UTC
There are some nice functions with the new camera
But things I would want instead

Old camera stays - but with a better view of things in space when zoomed up.
Use hot key to swap between the 3 cameras.
Tactical needs to start off anchored to your ship and stay that well tell you move off and then needs a fast option for going back.

I am a Null Sec ratter, and lacking the ability in the new camera to sit at the normal zoom range I use is very bother sum.
I don't want FP view for ratting.
I don't want a 25km limit circle to May ratting
And I don't want to jump from like 25km to like 300km with nothing in between.
My normal veiw range is like a 100-150km

The changes I feel are to great - we need more fine tuned control.

POV looks fine in its current state
What will be normal is to restrained on zoom out.
Tactical starts out to far, doesn't follow your ship, and is probably to big. 5000 m is probably a good spot, but it would need tweaks so things like outpost, planets and such are still view able beyond that. So a mix.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs

Akasha Mayan
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#67 - 2015-11-17 13:23:35 UTC
I've got to start by saying my initial reaction to the new camera was borderline horror; for it having actively broken or frustrated a range of control or operations. I understand it's starting its development, and some things when I first looked were known broken, including the very first thing I did on undock, being to zoom out. And I agree there's been improvements. But for fleet-eve play, situational awareness is key and there are use-cases that have to be preserved.

I hope it's not news that means lighting models, blended textures, kill marks or entire ships are entirely irrelevant to the function of displaying tactical information; with clutter management of brackets/etc. I do not even really see the eve graphics at all, and yes as beautiful as eve can look it's trying to force me to, when what actually I need is to get things done.

Which means in practical terms eve is (present TQ camera) being zoomed out 500k or more for doing nearly anything, and looking at different groups of different coloured boxes because that's what a not completely terrible fc (or any other awareness-fleet role at all) requires from a camera.

Alt+1 tactical camera
I scouted every alliance CFC ever shot but I don't see it as necessary or even distinctly useful, and this is a scouting camera. (Even with huge grids, shouldn't you have to go closer to look rather than sit at 3000k in a cloaked rookie ship?) But it's no use to use if you have a moving ship, even when people used battleships and aligned at ~100m/s for minutes - with nearly every fleet reaching 1.5 to 2k/s (linked nano bc's/hacs), manoeuvring heavily and constantly, it's ludicriously unusable during any actual gameplay:

- if the camera doesn't follow your ship, you immediately lose situational awareness because you do not instantaneously know where you are, and thus not see where anyone is in relation to you (which you'd check, tracking your camera through 120 degrees every few seconds to update your mental model of other fleet/ship vectors (add projected velocity vectors to ships on ctrl+d tactical overlay, if you want an idea of something that might impress).

May I suggest, that I'd see this as essentially an auto-button to turn on the ctrl+d overlay and zoom to 500k camera (following movement of your ship). But that could go into the existing tactical overlay button. It just kind of feels redundant, which is not exactly a great offence;

Alt+2 orbital camera
This camera being bad/broken initially (lost ship tracking and random direction on wheel zoom?) but I guess work is being done and I'm finding it (today) much more acceptable. If this is the current-camera analog, it's more or less acceptable though the zoom (out) is (still) much too slow. On tracking the camera view direction, I guess it's floaty and tracks with too much mouse movement, but I'd get used to it.

What improvement would I like to see - well it is irritating enough in live-TQ to have to zoom out after every jump and it would be nice if you solved one of my problems. Either zoom faster out to large ranges, perhaps even add a default camera range option (for the account, and not ship, like was done with ship custom orbit etc ranges, but I digress).

One essential existing feature is overlooked (so far) - new dscan/probe interface aside, the target tracking camera added some time ago (with center through ship) is not reflected in current-sisi and it needs to be present. This is the one useful camera change for dscanning/recon, or simply highlighting location of and target selection in possibly forever, - 'c' to toggle camera track is possibly the button I press most after left click, because it quickly ((except when it doesn't)) highlights target direction in space. I do not want to see this ignored/removed, it is important.

Alt+3 first person
For what I do, it is non-relevant but i'll comment because for a new, clearly experimental feature, what application it might have right now (much like the keyboard nav controls themselves) doesn't have to apply to me; and I do think there's potential to design, through this a new vision of a possible flavour of eve experience, and that I'm very positive about. It doesn't need to exhibit the most amazing flight model, just some help to look more like it has one, and I think that experience is one that can offer a lot, being the difference between 'flying' and 'commanding' a ship. It was nice to fly around an asteroid belt (like elite). Main observations -

- it's possible to do 'hands-on' flying (rather than classic orbit control/etc), despite slow/sluggish control on, for example an interceptor at 5k/s, but to be realistically passable as a feature - allow the keyboard nav controls to roll over from maximum "up" and "down", so positive or negative loops can occur, and cancel the auto roll to level (or add a lag from last input to that)

- allow for (say) the normal lclick camera drag button to drag camera, and the ship then tracks to that direction according to its stats (maybe add rclick drag and for camera pan look, snap back on release). This implies adding a velocity vector indicator but should accomplish a lot (as well as allow gamepad/joystick psuedo-control..).

- target lead indicators? I can select from overview a target behind the camera, but it's less than clear what direction that is (remembering you'd normally look down on it from 500k). From first person, those offgrid brackets need to be more pronounced to be visible.

I'm not horrified of the new camera after a few days', and maybe after I have a better understanding of what you're going for with each mode. It is improving, but please do not restrain, or especially remove functionality. Thank you.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#68 - 2015-11-17 15:44:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Cloned Mark wrote:
CCP Burger wrote:
Hey all,
Thank you for your feedback!
We just pushed an update to SiSi, here are the highlights
...
  • Camera sensitivity slider in settings (settings > graphics) (setting camera speed to fast will mimic the old camera)


  • Now that's what I'm talking about, can you add some sliders for other parameters, field of view and other new stuff?
    So we can experiment with them and find combination which we like, and slide them all to lowest values if we want same old camera back. Or set them max for full cinematic effects you guys added.

    I mean, why change parameters' values from patch to patch and gather feedback, seeking for optimal "less-tears-in-feedback-possibly-achievable", if you can just add sliders and let players tweak all their camera options on their own?

    Sound and logical. But this thinking is so far away from totalitarian, oppresive tyranny that is CCP.
    Sermin Enbur
    Doomheim
    #69 - 2015-11-19 01:54:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Sermin Enbur
    I'm not sure if this has been stated/asked already but here goes:

    In Orbital Camera mode when you zoom in the FOV obviously goes down, because of this almost every Nebula looks pixelated/low res/blurry and this is only a 1080p monitor too.
    Are there any plans on redoing/sharpening/modifying/whatever nebulas? It simply looks weird, ugly and almost like something in the installation stage went wrong or something.
    helana Tsero
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #70 - 2015-11-19 02:31:54 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
    I just noticed this.

    When I turn the new cameras OFF on Sisi. The FOV isnt returning to the current Tranquiliuty state. . The background stars are still pixellated and more zoomed (though not as much as with the new cameras turned on)

    Sorry in advance for the accusation but....

    On Sisi..CCP have you changed the old camera setting FOV ??? so now the new camera FOV settings dont look as bad when compared ?? Evil

    Cause on Sisi right now both my old camera and the new cameras are more blury and pixelated than the current camera on Tranquility.

    Im hoping this is an untentional edit cause if its intentional is a pretty poor smoke and mirrors effort.

    "...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

    Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |

    Soleil Fournier
    Destructive Influence
    Northern Coalition.
    #71 - 2015-11-19 09:19:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Soleil Fournier
    Played around with the new build for a bit: Much improved!!

    Here's a few additional tweaks I'd make:

    1) The camera when undocked in your pod still has too much going on. It needs to relax.

    2) Zooming in/out with center mouse button has a funky feeling to it. Not sure what to call it -inertia, whatever, but it's like the background and the object your camera is focused on are out of sync during the zoom. I'd turn that effect off if given an option.

    3) When looking at another ship, the camera would always spin around to the engines if the ship was moving. I had to click and hold the camera if I wanted to look at another angle. Would rather it didn't do that, and would hold position where I leave it.

    4) The default setting for camera speed on the new camera is sluggish compared to the old camera default setting. I had to increase camera speed by 1.5 to get it to a similar spot. This is minor since people can adjust the speed, but for the sake of easing the transition to the new camera, it would help to match the default speeds to be as close as possible.

    Other than that, I really enjoyed the changes that were made - making each camera mode a toggle instead of seamless was a huge improvement in the experience.
    Daemun Khanid
    Corbeau de sang
    #72 - 2015-11-19 16:56:04 UTC
    Sermin Enbur wrote:
    I'm not sure if this has been stated/asked already but here goes:

    In Orbital Camera mode when you zoom in the FOV obviously goes down, because of this almost every Nebula looks pixelated/low res/blurry and this is only a 1080p monitor too.
    Are there any plans on redoing/sharpening/modifying/whatever nebulas? It simply looks weird, ugly and almost like something in the installation stage went wrong or something.


    Has been pointed out a few times now by multiple people that the new cameras are effecting zoom on on the star field and causing things to become zoomed when they optically shouldnt be resulting in pixelated starfield textures but ccp haven't responded on the subject. If this goes live I'll be more than a little annoyed. Its just bad qa or a flat out refusal to listen to feedback. Ppl on live who haven't tested on sisi will not be happy with a visual downgrade.

    Daemun of Khanid

    Eli Stan
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #73 - 2015-11-20 06:44:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Stan
    CCP Burger wrote:
    Hey all,
    Thank you for your feedback!
    We just pushed an update to SiSi, here are the highlights

    • The feature is OPT-IN now (settings > general settings > experimental features > try the new camera)
    • Zooming doesn’t trigger state change
    • Center button freak out has been fixed
    • Camera sensitivity slider in settings (settings > graphics) (setting camera speed to fast will mimic the old camera)

    Orbit (alt + 2)

    • The ship center offset decreases the further you zoom out
    • Zoom and rotate more responsive (still tweaking the number)
    • We’ve re-implemented the track camera and mapped to shift+alt+left-click

    Marquee

    • Select: shift + left mouse
    • Look-at: alt + left mouse
    • Target: ctrl + left mouse
    • Multi select, look at and target will hopefully make it in mid-December

    Known issues

    • In tactical; when looking-at objects outside look-at range multiple times, camera body moves out each time
    • Warping in tactical is broken

    We are hoping to push updates daily this week, so keep the feedback coming!


    I tried the new camera this evening and have the following thoughts...

    So I'm one of those players who always has the tactical overlay on, with the camera zoomed out quite far. None of the new camera modes are useable for me. The tactical camera has the overlay with distances, but it doesn't follow my ship and it doesn't zoom out far enough. (Scratch that - I've discovered that while right after selecting this mode, I can't zoom out very far, if I then move the camera position, I can zoom way, way far out. With the camera's pivot point being changed during zoom based on my cursor position, I think? Putting the camera's position where I want it in this mode has proven to be very difficult for me.) (Further edit - oh! The zoom wheel in this case actually moves the camera linearally to/from the cursor position. Seeing how the nebula FOV doesn't ever change in this mode, I realize there's no actual zoom at all - it's pure camera positioning.) (This is the sort of 3D movement that a mouse just isn't good at, especially when dealing with chunks of often empty space that has no reference points. I think only a VR glove that can "grab" the scene to move it around would really work here.) The orbit camera tracks my ship and zooms out properly, but doesn't have the overlay with distances. (I'm not sure that I think about the orbit camera's feature of slowly being drug to a position behind my ship while it's moving...) Finally, the first person camera doesn't tell me anything at all about the special relationship between my ships and the other ships on grid.

    I like the idea of being able to decouple the camera's view from my ship position while in tactical view (looks like it can move about 2000 km from my ship?) but it needs an option to couple it as well. A toggle button, say. Also, since I play zoomed out, zooming in when I hit Alt-1 again to reset the camera position is bothersome because I have to zoom back out again.

    Or orbit view with the tactical overlay would be a step in the right direction for me as well.

    Looking forward to the next iteration. :)

    (Oh also, I've a crude paint of a suggestion for the tactical overlay. A way to show distances for objects that are over or below the plane of my ship. Instead of drawing a selection line straight vertical to my ship's plane, curve it along the surface of a sphere to intersect the plane at a distance from my ship equivalent to the distance between my ship and the object. Not sure how well this would work with multiple mobile objects, though. Kinda like this, but the intersection should be at 21 km of course. I messed that up. :) http://i.imgur.com/9qLBAe3.png )
    Soltys
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #74 - 2015-11-20 12:21:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Soltys
    Few observations:

    1) first person mode

    ?

    Ok, I understand "nerding after hours", but this has practically 0 uses in reality. It's like adding click-to-move mode to Quake.

    If anything, now-missing camera-tracking icon on hud (although personally I use shortcuts) is 1000x more useful than the first person icon .If you need space, swap it with autopilot icon that is available from route options (aside the fact that no sane EvE player ever uses it).

    The UI has irritating things unfixed and untouched for many years - including ignored bugs. Why not "nerd after hours" over them ? Aside those, "small things" thread has hundreds of simple not controversial suggestions that would improve eveyrone's life.

    2a) orbital mode

    - please give us FoV slider and option to respect its setting - no automatic adjustment (though leave it as a toggle); slider like that would be welcome in classic camera mode as well; at the very least bring back CTRL+LMB+RMB FoV adjustments

    - zooming without "cool" lag is better and more functional than with it; "camera speed" is not solution to that, as the lag is still there (though the slider is welcome - could use more steps than 0.25x - 4x); add a toggle to enable / disable this "cool" lag

    - camera tracking doesn't work in the new mode; I hope it's a bug (shortcuts still work), becuase if it isn't, then this mode is a giant regression

    2b) old classic mode

    - "invert zoom direction" doesn't work anymore
    - added "camera speed" slider doesn't work in this mode either

    Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl

    Manssell
    OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
    Together We Solo
    #75 - 2015-11-20 14:37:34 UTC
    One thing that's really bothering me is the 'Look At' button doesn't return your view to your ship after you look at something. On TQ you can quickly hit the button, look at a ship then hit it again to center your view back to yourself (you get the red 'X' over the view button). On Sis you have to go back down to the radial menu to reset your view on your ship. Seems like this just takes away functionality for more searching and clicking.
    Nana Skalski
    Taisaanat Kotei
    #76 - 2015-11-20 18:25:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
    How deeply thought out was that "camera revolution"? It breaks too much and is too much for an evolution.
    Thankyou that its opt in, but it should really not break anything when loaded to Tranquility.
    Ariete
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #77 - 2015-11-20 19:09:11 UTC
    In the latest build i have found a very annoying bug, you can moved the camrea around when in warp or when you jump though a gate the camrea cant move if you are in orbit veiw. Bugged reported.
    Arionu
    Iminoneih Ltd
    #78 - 2015-11-20 23:30:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Arionu
    First time doing a quick test after your latest posted changes, here's what I don't like:


    -When switching to orbit camera from another camera view while warp is engaged (even when ship has not yet entered warp but still aligning) camera angle gets stuck, bug report ID EBR-56769 entered.

    -When zooming in orbit camera (which is the most important one for me in most PvP encounters) the camera does not stay centered on your ship but instead the center point moves. When you stop zooming there is a moment of sway. This is absolutely dreadful.

    -Even after you have had tactical overlay on in orbit camera, after which you use tactical camera, switching back to orbit camera turns off tactical overlay.

    -Tactical camera has no option to keep it centered on and/or moving with your own ship. The optimal choice for me would be to select between current function and added 2 buttons: one would return the camera center to my ship and one would lock/unlock movement tracking from my ship.

    -When zooming out in tactical camera, you quickly reach a point where you can not zoom anymore. You need to drag the camera with the right mouse button a bit after which you can zoom more. There's no need for this barrier.
    Nanom Basskel
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #79 - 2015-11-20 23:53:11 UTC
    Please for the love of Bob let the orbit camera actually orbit the center of the ship, rather than drift forward and back depending on what speed you're going. Shifting camera positions end up also shifting which vector your mouse is pointed at if the center keeps changing, ruining manual piloting.

    Also please reduce the amount of smoothness/inertia in changing camera angles. PVP requires both precision and quick reaction speed, and fighting the controls while your camera is taking its sweet time drifting around not knowing when to stop makes it far less usable than the current responsive orbit camera. This is the worst kind of form over function design choice you could make. It was bad on previous iterations of the new map, and it's still terrible now.
    Daemun Khanid
    Corbeau de sang
    #80 - 2015-11-21 02:08:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
    Out of curiosity why has this thread been UN-stickied? I hope for the love of god its not because your about to put this on live because from what we've seen so far its no where near ready for prime time. Making it optional is fine and dandy but putting something on tranq that is half a$$ and unfinished just makes ccp look bad. I understand they want to introduce new cool stuff and these new camera's will be nice WHEN they are ready but that is not even remotely the current case and theres been more than enough feedback from ppl here to make that obvious without sending it live and holding buckets out for all the tears.

    Edit: will say that I've been out of town this last week so I'm basing my opinion on the initial implementation of the new features. Perhaps some things have been changes to adress some of the major concerns but the changes havent been listed here by devs. So take what I say with that in mind and I'll also try and hope that that is the case.

    Daemun of Khanid