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Dev Blog: Scanning and Probing Changes in Parallax

First post
Author
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#121 - 2015-11-05 11:05:59 UTC
Yasuo Aldent wrote:
I'm not sure if this issue has been addressed yet but the new scanning window/system does not seem to work in the old map (sigs/anoms/scan spheres are not visible). The new windows look great and i'll give them a 5/5 when I can use them in the old map. (which btw guys, is the best map to scan in).

Might I make a suggestion: Keep the new map to have all the nice colors, icons, zoom-in/drill down features etc. but allow scanning to be exclusively performed on the old map and call it the "scanning map" or something. From what I've seen of the scanning on the new map, scanning on the old map is by far superior in speed and usability.


The systems are not compatible, and right now we have no plans to make them work with each other, sorry.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

TheRealRickRoss
Diazepam Industries
#122 - 2015-11-05 11:08:24 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:


It's a visual representation of the Directional Scanner. It can be disabled currently by closing the Directional Scanner, but we are adding a toggle to have D-scan open and not display the visual representation.


Thank you kindly!
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#123 - 2015-11-05 11:09:51 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
Thank you for the suggestions, I was able to scan a wormhole system with minimal deficiency from the old map with many of the items (belts, probes, etc) turned off. Couple comments on things to either reinforce what has been previously said or new observations:


  • With the new scanning interface set to "not track camera" for d-scan, you cannot do a targetted 5% dscan by moving your POV in the new map and hitting a scan. It always scans where you camera is pointed. Thus, you have to enable the "dscan tracks camera" option to achieve the desired effect. Turning this on renders map panning useless during probe scanning so I'm finding I have to repeatedly turn on and off this feature in order to get the desired dscan and probing functionality I need. My POV on the new map with the camera track off should mean that dscan follows my map POV, not my camera.
  • Signature dots need to be larger and brighter and circles need to be more pronounced (I believe you've noted this already) as well as the dscan sphere/cone being able to be hidden.
  • Bounding boxes on most non-probe items are too big. Probes should always take precedence over other items
  • The underline for probe percentage is too hard to tell if it is for the entry above or below. Go back to the fill method. I don't really see a reason to change this.
  • Please review wormhole sounds while the scanning window is full-screen. In the past, you would not hear wormhole activations unless you exited and re-entered the map while on grid with a wormhole. This shouldn't be necessary. Non-fullscreen seems to work fine.
  • Previously warped to wormholes no longer show the label "Unstable Wormhole" on the map without hovering. This was a key dscan targetting tool as those signatures would stand out from others making it easy to look for a decloaked ship on a wormhole. Combine this with the first point about dscan/camera behavior and finding a ship transiting a wormhole with the new map is significantly harder.
  • It would be nice if highlighting a scanned signature on the map should highlight it in the results window




1. We will be making some kind of change in this area, probably making the button more accessible. The camera tracking thing is just a camera paradigm that we can't currently touch
2. We are indeed making changes to sig dots and D-scan visual will be toggleable
3. Don't think the bounding box will change, but we will have another pass at layering
4. We'll be taking a pass at lines and colors likely in the next release
5. Will check it out, but if you wanted to file a bug report to remind me I would not be sad
6. Interesting point - will bring this up with Colgate
7. Yup, good point. It worked that way before and so should in this map too.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#124 - 2015-11-05 11:11:06 UTC
Alle Monte wrote:
My major bug and the reason I haven't been able to use the new dscan is, for me, the ship hud needs to be visible when the map is in full screen - not hidden behind it. Hope you can fix that as I'm sticking with the old scanner until then. Also the additional red hatched sphere thing around my ship is uneccesary and clutters an already busy screen. Not sure what its purpose is but I don't need it.

edit - prefered the anoms with a green background. It's so obvious like that.


Yup, we'll be fixing the HUD thing. The red sphere is a visual representation of your D-scanner. That will also be toggleable (though currently isn't without closing D-scan)

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#125 - 2015-11-05 11:13:24 UTC
TheRealRickRoss wrote:
After hating the new scanners/map at first I'm getting the hang of them, but there's a few annoyances, maybe already mentioned in this thread.

1) The new red sphere on the map showing your D-scan range is awesome, but maybe blue or something would be better. It's way to similar to the sigs and makes it confusing a lot of the time.
2) Another colour issue, sigs (once you get them probed down to a red circle or further) are way to dark.
3) The arrows for moving the probes are too small.
4) After scanning something down and ignoring it, all the other sigs used to appear on the map again, this no longer happens and it sucks tbh.

So yea mostly UI issues there, and don't get me wrong I do love the new systems and appreciate the work gone into it.


1. We're going to take colors on in the next release most likely
2. We're going to lighten the sigs in an upcoming patch
3. First time I've seen a comment about them being too small! Usually people say they're too big. Will keep an eye and see if a trend develops.
4. This is a defect and we'll be fixing it in an upcoming patch

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

TheRealRickRoss
Diazepam Industries
#126 - 2015-11-05 11:13:36 UTC  |  Edited by: TheRealRickRoss
Goliath you're my new favorite dev. To show my commitment to this I baked you a cookie and it was very tasty, thank you.

Edit: Thanks for the awesome answers above. As for my finding the arrows to small, it's perhaps my habit to stay quite zoomed out while probing. I should probably change this, or alternatively it there was a system that would determine the size of the arrows based on your zoom level, i.e big ones if you're zoomed out enough to see the whole system, and smaller ones if you're up close to your sig working on the last couple AU.

Cheers
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#127 - 2015-11-05 11:16:48 UTC
Adan Natrier wrote:
No postcard.

I will offer a roleplay narrative of a cowardly low sec gate camp pirate.

Much like any ~elite pvp~ player, anything that looks like an actual fight should be avoided. Killing newbies is the best way to pad killboards, preferably by listing skillbooks one jump out of high sec near to a mission system as incidental bait. With alt scouts every side (paid for from scamming, blending kittens on youtube videos for plex, or whatever), hiding just off grid of the high sec gate, so that even if someone has a friend to scout for them in a frigate (as if), they won't report anything as they go through. After all, newbies (or high sec players in general) don't know how to use dscan or much of anything at all. They did not have to dscan pretty much every structure in nullsec and paste its result into some data vampire spreadsheet. Several times.

Anyway, this really can't be caught by surprise. After all, if you can dscan, and that shows combats on it, so even though there are times of being lazy and using the same spots pretty often, you'll never not see those combats coming.

It'd be terrible if someone preplaced them, like a trap; launched and > 2094370180km from any celestials, while dscanning the gate themselves from marginally under that. With those combats preplaced, around the gate and ready to run. And then immediately selfdestructed them. Yes. That might just be fast enough they'd never show.

Thank god they can't do that. Or even have the choice leave them behind, deliberately in space and in a specific position (to catch them at that perch they always run to, to check for a bubble when they're being chased) and to reconnect to later, after going to another system because they're *forced* to recall them on jump, and tediously reposition them when or if they come back. Yes, I'm so glad all the probing changes were sourced from asking pve players for feedback running silly sites. It's not like speed is everything, in combat probing.

Got to go. There's a badger coming.


Umm, I asked tons of combat probing questions though and specifically sought out combat probing feedback? I'm afraid your pithy banter has usurped your point.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#128 - 2015-11-05 11:17:25 UTC
Lara Sunji wrote:
Will the color ever look the same like the rest of my ui? It's really distracting looking at a black box.
http://s20.postimg.org/imde3l81p/hmm.jpg Pin enabled as well.


This is a defect. Should have been fixed yesterday but there was an issue with the port. Coming in a patch near you soon (not today)

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#129 - 2015-11-05 11:18:19 UTC
TheRealRickRoss wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:


It autoupdates for me? That's quite interesting. Could you submit a bug report following replicating the bug so I can see some logs please?

Not sure where toggle will end up at this time. We might try putting it in a few different places and see which one gets clicked most :P

I find the latter point interesting too - a few people have asked for the map controls to be "popout" when the map goes into fullscreen - what do people think about that?



I find it sometimes auto-updates and sometimes not. I think maybe the times it doesn't is because you're changing range too fast (2 seconds) and it's a bug not telling you?


I can definitely go too fast and have it not update, yeah. That's not a bug though, that's just picking how you want to use the system.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#130 - 2015-11-05 11:21:26 UTC
Malice Redeemer wrote:
Guess I will report my suggestions that seemed to get ignored on the other thread.

It's way more clunky to turn anomalies on and off. Give us a check box for that filter and possibly signatures that isn't in that dropdown.

Remove the word Cosmic from anomalies and signatures, it is just wasting space in the name column of the scanning window.

The title bar menu for the map in fullscreen should be made moveable.


Sorry if I missed your post :(

How is it "more clunky" to press 1 than it is to click a checkbox?

We're looking in to map controls being more flexible when in fullscreen mode.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#131 - 2015-11-05 11:22:46 UTC
TheRealRickRoss wrote:
Goliath you're my new favorite dev. To show my commitment to this I baked you a cookie and it was very tasty, thank you.

Edit: Thanks for the awesome answers above. As for my finding the arrows to small, it's perhaps my habit to stay quite zoomed out while probing. I should probably change this, or alternatively it there was a system that would determine the size of the arrows based on your zoom level, i.e big ones if you're zoomed out enough to see the whole system, and smaller ones if you're up close to your sig working on the last couple AU.

Cheers


Taking those sugar bullets so I don't have to, what a hero :)

Right now the arrows scale on window size, so maybe we can do something with zoom - I'll run it past CCP Colgate.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

TheRealRickRoss
Diazepam Industries
#132 - 2015-11-05 11:29:51 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:


Taking those sugar bullets so I don't have to, what a hero :)

Right now the arrows scale on window size, so maybe we can do something with zoom - I'll run it past CCP Colgate.


Ah, I always keep my window pretty same since I am living in the dark ages monitor wise :)

Cheers
Damjan Fox
Fox Industries and Exploration
#133 - 2015-11-05 11:39:31 UTC
I'm sure many players before me, have already mentioned the issues/problems, they have with the new changes, i'm about to post, but i'd still like to give my feedback on this, just to show, there are more players out there, with the same opinion:

- Tooltips covering your Probes in the Scanning Map:
This is the thing, that bothers me the most. It would be great, if the cube and arrows of your probes would be "always on top". If i have to scan signatures, i don't want to be tooltips in the way. Yes, i can turn off markers in the filter settings, but i can't turn off all of it. I'd still like to see at least planets,stations and gates. And signatures are located near those celestials most of the time. And the advice to increase the tooltip delay is not really feasible, because this is a global setting. I don't have any problems with other tooltips in the game, just with those in the scanning map.

- D-Scan Indicator in Scanning Map:
Please give it a different colour from Sigs. Or add a toggle to make it invisible.

- Resizing Probe Scan Range:
It's more difficult in the new map, to grab the edges of the probes and resize them that way. Yes, i'm aware we can use the mousewheel/shortcuts for this, but i think many players, me included, would prefer to be able to this only with the mouse (for the mousewheel you still have to press ALT) Increasing the hitbox of the edges would help a lot.
Furthermore, one thing i would have always liked to see implemented: A visual feedback, if the cursor is over the edge of a sphere, when you try to resize them. For example, make the sphere more transparent and the edges highlighted. This would avoid the hassle, when you try to resize the probes respectively move the camera and you don't know, if your cursor is hitting an edge of a sphere or not.

- Missing Checkbox for "Show Anomalies"
In the old system, you could quickly update the distances to anomlies while in warp by unchecking/checking that checkbox. Now you have to go in the filter dropdown list. This is pretty inconvenient. (Perhaps it would be possible to automatically update the distances to anomalies during warp or when you change your position in the solar system?)

- Green Underlines in Anomalies/Signature List:
Please, change that back to the solid green background. This new look is just more difficult to read and understand when you glance through it.


That's it for now. (And, as it is, i think poor CCP Goliath has already enough to read Big smile)

Regards,
Damjan
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#134 - 2015-11-05 11:40:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Saisin
CCP Goliath wrote:
...
Yeah we kinda went "out of the frying pan into the fire" with that button placement. We were so focused on getting the Recall probes button far away from "Analyze". I actually don't know what the use case of that button is. Answers on a postcard!



Right now, there are no reasons to use "destroy probes" ever that I can think of. This said, the "destroy probe" would be useful if you wanted to nerf a bit ninja-scanning:

Here are the steps for ninja-scanning:
- Take a character with max scan skills and best implants.
- Place this character in a safe more than 14.3 AU of any celestial in a system
- This character drop probes and places them, He has little risks of being d-scaned as it is too far from celestials.
- Character pushes scan, probes warp and scan, get a ping in a few seconds
- Character return probes. They immediately come back and can only be d-scanned by target for the very few seconds they travelled and did the scanning.
- character has reloaded another set of probes in the meantime and drops the new set, tuning the placement while the probes are still outside of d-scan range from anyone.
- push scan again and probes travel again and get a 100% ping in two or three ninja scans.

If the "return probes" was to have the probes travel to return to the ship, they would be d-scannable for a slightly longer time by the target

Then the destroy probes would be useful to do this kind of ninja scanning, at the expense of a set of probes each time.

if you do not need/want to nerf ninja scan, then the destroy probe button is useless.

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project

Malice Redeemer
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#135 - 2015-11-05 11:40:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Malice Redeemer
CCP Goliath wrote:
Malice Redeemer wrote:
Guess I will report my suggestions that seemed to get ignored on the other thread.

It's way more clunky to turn anomalies on and off. Give us a check box for that filter and possibly signatures that isn't in that dropdown.

Remove the word Cosmic from anomalies and signatures, it is just wasting space in the name column of the scanning window.

The title bar menu for the map in fullscreen should be made moveable.


Sorry if I missed your post :(

How is it "more clunky" to press 1 than it is to click a checkbox?

We're looking in to map controls being more flexible when in fullscreen mode.



I have other controls bound to the number keys, your new controls are not remappable as far as I can tell. Beside that, I am talking about using the mouse, the new filter control drop down box has a weird delay to open that makes it hard to use.


I would also like to add, that I would like the old solid green bar over the tiny bar we have in the new window. And an option to turn off the background stars would me nice
Malice Redeemer
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#136 - 2015-11-05 11:49:50 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
TheRealRickRoss wrote:
After hating the new scanners/map at first I'm getting the hang of them, but there's a few annoyances, maybe already mentioned in this thread.

1) The new red sphere on the map showing your D-scan range is awesome, but maybe blue or something would be better. It's way to similar to the sigs and makes it confusing a lot of the time.
2) Another colour issue, sigs (once you get them probed down to a red circle or further) are way to dark.
3) The arrows for moving the probes are too small.
4) After scanning something down and ignoring it, all the other sigs used to appear on the map again, this no longer happens and it sucks tbh.

So yea mostly UI issues there, and don't get me wrong I do love the new systems and appreciate the work gone into it.


1. We're going to take colors on in the next release most likely
2. We're going to lighten the sigs in an upcoming patch
3. First time I've seen a comment about them being too small! Usually people say they're too big. Will keep an eye and see if a trend develops.
4. This is a defect and we'll be fixing it in an upcoming patch


I tried to use it with the map windowed vs full screen and the arrows were too small to use. I thought it might be nice to be able to see what was going on while I scanned, but sadly it is pretty unusable that way
Iski Zuki DaSen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#137 - 2015-11-05 12:05:57 UTC
The camera follows the ship while it travels in the solar system
this makes things harder when you try to relocate probes while in warp
is there an option to turn this off?

i aslo disklike the fact i have to hit "control" so often" to relocate the probes

when in full screen the only thing i cant see is the ship controll
so i can see the overview and everything else on my screen but i can cloack up whn i jump to a system and warp while having the probe map open by clicking the module
i can press "F1 " and cloack up but cant be sure if the ship is cloacked
or if i want to reaproach the gate cant hit my mwd module i can only use those via shortcuts
and overall i cant see the "capacitor donat"
plz fix that
Lei Volund
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2015-11-05 12:10:11 UTC
Not so much of an issue, more an 'annoyance'

when in system view, mouse wheel up makes you zoom out, but when holding alt it makes the probes zoom in.

feels dis-jointed to me, i might be the only one though
Victor Saame
nonuse
#139 - 2015-11-05 12:12:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Victor Saame
Today was the first day exploring with this new map. It seems couple of the annoying things are already being addressed, great to hear! Here's a few more.. Some of these are already mentioned but here goes;


1. I tend to scan while flying around, saving a bit of time. I have A LOT of bookmarks to help me move around. The bookmark icons used to be those cute _little_ pins, now in the new map they are same round icons as every other icon on the map. This makes it really hard to distinguish them on the map. (And I like to have my map also to show the moons and planets etc., so the map becomes really really cluttered.)

(actually ALL of the boxes are too big!)

2. In the old map clicking something on the overview would highlight that thing on the map, not anymore..? Also the next destination gate was highlighted in yellow on the old map, not in the new probe map.. When entering a system I've never been before, I have no idea where those other gates are on the map (without actually trying to find them hovering my mouse over where I think they will be). Highlighting clicked overview items on the map would massively help situational awareness.

3. When dropping probes, most of the time they tend to land in the middle of celectial objects. Dragging that white probe box away from there (without using the arrows) is IMPOSSIBLE without bringing up the pop-up menu-thing..... (see point 1).

4. Resizing the probes around the edges is pain. So much time wasted on this one...

5. D-scan button moved to left side..? I'm also one of those billions of people who keep their d-scan on the left side of the screen and moving that button even more left is just evil. (yeah i know about the keyboard shortcut...)

6. It would be really great if the (unfinished) sig results would be highlighted on the map when probes are moved on top of them.

7. Please fill the sig bars with color, instead of that little coloured line... SO confusing, even more so when you have 10+ sigs, both finished and unfinished ones....

8. In the old probe window after the scan results was around 75% (?) you could see exactly what the signature type was when hovering your mouse over it (temple site vs. monument site etc). Not anymore..?

9. In the new probe window you can't drag the columns smaller than they already are. I have a lot of windows open at the same time and I like to keep my probe window as small as possible. Resizing the columns they way I wanted I had no problem seeing all of them in the old probe window, now I can't see all the columns without making the whole window wider.

10. Double clicking a sig in the old probe window had that nice quick sliding animation, now it just snaps straight to it... This makes it just a little more confusing, especially if you're zoomed way in.


- (thank god if something is being done to the d-scan red bubble around your ship...)
Athanor Ruthoern
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#140 - 2015-11-05 12:19:51 UTC
Thanks for continually working on EVE

I am now adding to the choir asking to please move the scan button back to the right I am fully aware there is a shortcut for this now. I could also turn it around asking why is the button there if there is a shortcut key for it ? It is there for people to have an option to use the mouse and click or to use the shortcut.

Tracking Camera: Toggle Point Camera to Selected Item does not seem to work in full screen.

There does not seem to be a shortcut on toggle align with camera so you can quickly see the cone while descanning with camera tracking on. It is very nice you can dscan in another direction when having both features turned on. But it would stil be nice having an easy way to see the scanning cone when descanning with align with camera both when camera tracking is on or off. Maybe just a button you can hold down for a few seconds, Maybe even middle mouse button.

- Ath