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[New Structures] Condensed thread

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Author
Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2015-11-02 01:38:32 UTC
Might want to google that before you assume...

CCP is currently rewriting code that has existed since the server was switched on. That isnt trivial. Its not simple... and no you cant do it in a few months.

What you are literally complaining about is akin to taking your car to the mechanic for a complete engine replacement and complaining that it isn't done in an hour.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#82 - 2015-11-02 09:12:29 UTC
The main reason we are hearing about this soo soon in the dev cycle is because they want feedback.

And yea is DOES take that long to "add a few structures" when they behave and operate in complexity different ways.

Typical Junior dev comment right there. I wrote my tic tac toe assignment game in just 2 days. Adding all that structures is like only a few weeks of work. Art departments can just give me the models sometime by Tuesday right?

Yea right.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

ThePiachu Avar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#83 - 2015-11-03 07:59:58 UTC
Question - will the Structure components and Structures themselves be constructable in POS assembly arrays, or only stations / outposts and eventually citadels?
Roberta Gastoni
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2015-11-03 13:08:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Roberta Gastoni
I couldn't find this info anywhere or probably it has not been mentioned before:

- Will citadel(s) decay in space if not used / accessed, in the same way mobile depots do?
- In case they will / do, will we be able to use let's say entosis link to capture abandoned citadels?
- In case we wont be able to use entosis links, what will be their fate is abandoned?

Space, and not simply high sec, but also low and wh space, is littered by dead sticks that have too many HPs to be destroyed with ease if abandoned. Even a medium citadel need to pass 2 reinforced states from my understanding regardless the owner is active or not, and considering that ccp stated we will be able to see all the citadel / structures in the system, wont we be ending up with a massive amount of citadels in this list, with very little really operative?

We had dead sticks for years, are we going to have ghost station for the future?
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#85 - 2015-11-03 14:50:27 UTC
Roberta Gastoni wrote:
I couldn't find this info anywhere or probably it has not been mentioned before:

- Will citadel(s) decay in space if not used / accessed, in the same way mobile depots do?
- In case they will / do, will we be able to use let's say entosis link to capture abandoned citadels?
- In case we wont be able to use entosis links, what will be their fate is abandoned?

Space, and not simply high sec, but also low and wh space, is littered by dead sticks that have too many HPs to be destroyed with ease if abandoned. Even a medium citadel need to pass 2 reinforced states from my understanding regardless the owner is active or not, and considering that ccp stated we will be able to see all the citadel / structures in the system, wont we be ending up with a massive amount of citadels in this list, with very little really operative?

We had dead sticks for years, are we going to have ghost station for the future?


All the Citadels are destructible. If you want to remove an abandoned citadel, blow it up. Since it's abandoned, it should be trivial.

It has already been stated that the old structures (outposts and POSes) are being removed. So any dead sticks will magically vanish.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#86 - 2015-11-03 17:06:19 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
All the Citadels are destructible. If you want to remove an abandoned citadel, blow it up. Since it's abandoned, it should be trivial.

It has already been stated that the old structures (outposts and POSes) are being removed. So any dead sticks will magically vanish.


There should be a mechanic for unused structures to become more vulnerable; perhaps if no one docks / tethers at them for XX days the damage mitigation cap is lifted or the structure is vulnerable 24/7.

Remember that this is a long-standing complaint about poses, and new structures are even worse. At least poses ran out of fuel eventually and didn't keep entering new reinforcement timers without owner interaction. As things stand right now, Citadels are shaping up to be far worse in terms of abandoned space debris that starbases ever were.
Roberta Gastoni
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2015-11-03 17:12:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Roberta Gastoni
Soldarius wrote:
All the Citadels are destructible. If you want to remove an abandoned citadel, blow it up. Since it's abandoned, it should be trivial.

It has already been stated that the old structures (outposts and POSes) are being removed. So any dead sticks will magically vanish.


Yet, dead sticks are everywhere, none is taking care of them as there's no real reason: free moons are everywhere, you don't need multiple POS for your jobs and why destroy the starbase control tower when you can simply destroy everything around it?

Now, a medium citadel present way more defenses than a dead stick, don't misunderstand me, I'm not afraid of a ghost station or of the fact it might or might not abandoned, I'm afraid we are going to have a lot more ghost citadels instead of the actual dead sticks.

If people are shying away from the grind of killing a dead stick, why should they be grind a ghost citadel? When I attacked abandoned POSses, I simply destroyed the research and assembly array, an ammunition assembly array has 50k total HP, a small control tower has a 10mil shield alone, and no, i'm not talking about the force field. After killing everything around the stick I looted all (if there was any) and waltzed away, since the tower at best can drop strontium, surely no fuel since it's offline.

The sheer amount of passive defense of a citadel, plus the fact it repair itself regardless anyone is around, plus the reinforcment timers, plus the fact that after all the grind it could be empty... because remember, thanks to the loot rules of the citadel, most of the assets in it are going to be sent to a station or another citadel, so you will loot only the mats of jobs actually running, but since it's abandoned you wont get any.

Which lead to my concern, is there going to be an inactivity timer that will make them capturable or that will unachor them?

I think it would be totally cool to probe (with combat probes) an abandoned citadel, not listed in the local citadel list, use the entosis link and make it your base. Since this kind of stuff create content, feel free to call it "recycled content".
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#88 - 2015-11-03 18:26:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Citadels drop loot, a M Citadel will drop on average 350-400 million loot even if dead.
That's why you won't see dozens of citadels clustering every system, because they are actually worth attacking. And only require you to bring 4000 DPS.

L Citadels will drop 3.5-4 Billion loot.

So I don't believe any inactivity timer is needed, natural greed will make them vanish in balls of fire, thus also keeping the manufacturing market intact while any capture mechanic will kill the market.
Remember they have no passive defences, simply a fairly easy to achieve DPS gate. If it shoots back at you, it's not a dead Citadel.
Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2015-11-03 19:47:19 UTC
Everything POS do Citadels to better.. Including dying.

The point Nevyn made is not really being widely discussed yet its very critical to why citadels are better than POS.
They will almost always be worth shooting. A stick is a stick.. its a time consuming multiday(if stronted) mess of utter BS.
A citadel is a loot pinata that gives a carrot at the end of the grind.
aldhura
Blackjack and Exotic Dancers
Top Tier
#90 - 2015-11-03 21:08:40 UTC
I really think the mooring feature doesn't make sense.
You are basically stuck in the cap ship.
I have read that once you leave the moored ship in become vulnerable and your pod is moored, that will mean, as I read it anyway, you are basically stuck in that capital ship. I don't have one anymore, but means there will be no point in getting one.
Something like being able to switch ships for a couple hours will be a better approach.

What will happen to all our current POS's and pos modules? will we get a "free" swap out for the new structures ? or are we now stuck with more junk we can't get rid of?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#91 - 2015-11-03 21:27:38 UTC
aldhura wrote:
I really think the mooring feature doesn't make sense.
You are basically stuck in the cap ship.
I have read that once you leave the moored ship in become vulnerable and your pod is moored, that will mean, as I read it anyway, you are basically stuck in that capital ship. I don't have one anymore, but means there will be no point in getting one.
Something like being able to switch ships for a couple hours will be a better approach.

What will happen to all our current POS's and pos modules? will we get a "free" swap out for the new structures ? or are we now stuck with more junk we can't get rid of?

Dock your Cap ship in a large Citadel.
It's pretty easy.
Roberta Gastoni
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2015-11-03 22:07:14 UTC
Nafensoriel wrote:
Everything POS do Citadels to better.. Including dying.

The point Nevyn made is not really being widely discussed yet its very critical to why citadels are better than POS.
They will almost always be worth shooting. A stick is a stick.. its a time consuming multiday(if stronted) mess of utter BS.
A citadel is a loot pinata that gives a carrot at the end of the grind.


I'm a bit worried the automatic reinforcment timer are going to be a deterrent by itself - I for one wont go bash for the lulz or for 300 mil a medium citadel that only look abandoned and might fight back, forcing me to show not in a "bash fit" but in a "pvp fit", when in the same timeframe I can go run some null/wh exploration sites for at least 100 mil a hour in relative safety in a ship that cost at best 30 mil.

Remember that when the cap changes will go live you wont be able to refit in combat, so your bash fit will be your tomb too.

To cap the dps of a medium citadel you need 4 battleship (or attack battlecruisers) or 1 dread, and if something goes wrong you risk to lose more then you are going to gain if you destroy it. I'm sure you wont risk your Moros to bash for the lulz or for 300-400 mil in loot a medium citadel, or even risk 4 battlecruisers worth the half you are going to gain. You wont be ewar immune in your moros, they just need to break your target, drain your cap and slowly chew your down.

My point is destroying citadel for a profit is not the same of doing it with dead pos. The risk reward ratio is way different, and with different I don't mean "wrong", I just mean different. Surely at the start we are going to see a lot of citadel destroyed just because they are new and the metagame will be destroying them, but slowly people will tag them as "a boring grind not worth the effort" and just let them rot in space.

Obviously destroying an active citadel has a totally different purpose and meaning, and risking your ship to inflict a logistic damage to your opponenent has no real isk value. My talk and concern is only about inactive ones, active one have already plenty of reasons to be destroyed.
Roberta Gastoni
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2015-11-03 22:10:13 UTC
xttz wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
All the Citadels are destructible. If you want to remove an abandoned citadel, blow it up. Since it's abandoned, it should be trivial.

It has already been stated that the old structures (outposts and POSes) are being removed. So any dead sticks will magically vanish.


There should be a mechanic for unused structures to become more vulnerable; perhaps if no one docks / tethers at them for XX days the damage mitigation cap is lifted or the structure is vulnerable 24/7.

Remember that this is a long-standing complaint about poses, and new structures are even worse. At least poses ran out of fuel eventually and didn't keep entering new reinforcement timers without owner interaction. As things stand right now, Citadels are shaping up to be far worse in terms of abandoned space debris that starbases ever were.


I'm very glad to see I'm not the only one to think it that way.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#94 - 2015-11-03 22:11:42 UTC
Roberta Gastoni wrote:


My point is destroying citadel for a profit is not the same of doing it with dead pos. The risk reward ratio is way different, and with different I don't mean "wrong", I just mean different. Surely at the start we are going to see a lot of citadel destroyed just because they are new and the metagame will be destroying them, but slowly people will tag them as "a boring grind not worth the effort" and just let them rot in space.

Please explain to me what profit you make killing a POS Tower that is dead.
Not one that has gone offline with modules still anchored, but just the tower hanging there.

And how much DPS you have to put on the grid to kill it in the same timeframe.

It's easier to kill a Citadel, and you get profit.
Roberta Gastoni
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2015-11-03 22:52:34 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Please explain to me what profit you make killing a POS Tower that is dead.
Not one that has gone offline with modules still anchored, but just the tower hanging there.

And how much DPS you have to put on the grid to kill it in the same timeframe.

It's easier to kill a Citadel, and you get profit.


In fact I've made the example of a control tower with offline anchored modules, as today there's no purpose of destroying the control tower.

Yet the whole idea of "you make profit out of it" doesn't hold up, because the gain compared to the amount of effort required is off.

If you go read the dev blogs, at the dps cap you need to nuke it for 30 min at least, and the dps is at least 5 battleship for the medium and 15 for the large. These are not my numbers, they come from the dev blog. These structures will go in reinforcment mode 2 times (for 24 hours i think) and pop on the third day.

Now depending on the vulnerability windows, assuming you are not sporting the top dps, you will have much likely from one to two hours to send it in reinforced mode. Is it really good money bashing for 3 nights, alone with your alts or with friends, for 1 hour or more each a citadel that might drop around 300 mil for a medium? Surely you wont have 15 battleship alts or 3 dread alts to bash a Large Citadel, so you will have split the loot. Also mind, these numbers are much likely calculated on "top dps fits", and I reiterate, you'll be dead if caught in pvp with a fit like that.

So for me, as today, if i'm going to see a citadel in my wh or null I'm not going to destroy it for the loot, but if I'm going to destroy it is going to be because it's a threat to me. If it turns out to be owned by an inactive corp, for all I care, it can rot in space forever, and for the money the combat anomalies / relic sites / data sites are enough of a loot pinata ready to be popped.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#96 - 2015-11-03 23:42:32 UTC
So you take the best possible example of loot for a POS, which is highly rare.
And then compare it to the worst possible example of loot for a Citadel.
And then compare the loot from a medium against the number of people you need for a large which drops ten times the loot......

Then claim it's not worth it because you don't get out of bed for less than 100 million/hour.

Wow, just wow.
Roberta Gastoni
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2015-11-03 23:46:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Roberta Gastoni
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
So you take the best possible example of loot for a POS, which is highly rare.
And then compare it to the worst possible example of loot for a Citadel.
And then compare the loot from a medium against the number of people you need for a large which drops ten times the loot......

Then claim it's not worth it because you don't get out of bed for less than 100 million/hour.

Wow, just wow.


Can you quote the part I say those things, because I cannot find them in my post.

EDIT:
15 people / alts destroy a large citadel, dropping 4bil.
4 bil divided 15 people is 266 mil each, for 3 night of work of at least 3 hours of bashing, 80-90 mil a hour.
You do 70 mil a hour by running level 4 missions in high sec.

Also there's no worse scenario - read the dev blog on how the loot inside the citadel is handled - all the personal and corp assets get shipped to a station or another citadel, in wh space they simply get destroyed. You only loot the station equipment, which cannot be reprocessed as fozzie said, and raw mats and fuel that could be left hanging around.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#98 - 2015-11-03 23:54:36 UTC
Offline pos with anchored modules.
Citadel with no jobs running.
You then talk about 300 mil loot from a M Citadel (Which is low from the information we have, not even average), but then talk about needing 15 people in the same sentence for a Large, without mentioning that the large actually will be dropping 10 times the loot roughly, so 3.5 billion - 4 billion depending on modules.

So yea, you totally were coming up with the worst possible scenario to claim it wasn't worth attacking a citadel.
Roberta Gastoni
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2015-11-04 00:00:31 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Offline pos with anchored modules.
Citadel with no jobs running.
You then talk about 300 mil loot from a M Citadel (Which is low from the information we have, not even average), but then talk about needing 15 people in the same sentence for a Large, without mentioning that the large actually will be dropping 10 times the loot roughly, so 3.5 billion - 4 billion depending on modules.

So yea, you totally were coming up with the worst possible scenario to claim it wasn't worth attacking a citadel.


Go read again the dev blog on how the loot inside a citadel is handled. You will see that unless you hit a loot pinata of a big corp with a lot of jobs running (so active, and I repeat we are speaking of inactive ones) or a citadel that had a lot of raw materials stored, what you get is pretty much streamlined.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#100 - 2015-11-04 00:09:35 UTC
Yes, 700 Mil Citadel + modules = 350-400 mil loot for a medium. Which takes you 3 people for a total of 3 hours, or 6 people for 1.5 hours. Since CCP have said you will get drops from a citadel based on it's mineral value and the modules will drop like normal.
Which is what I've been assuming that there will be no jobs running.

However the normal dead POS stick has no modules attached to it either, and you get zero drops from a POS stick.