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[New Structures] Condensed thread

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Anthar Thebess
#41 - 2015-10-29 15:57:55 UTC
Can medium citadels get ability to store limited, and small number of capitals.
Currently you can leave in a small tower capital floating under a forcefield , this will probably be not possible in citadels.

This gets us from position where investing 100 mil in a small tower allows you to keep somewhere a capital "safe" to a position , that you can do the same investing a 7bil in a large citadel.

This will kill smaller groups operations.

Giving Medium citadel ability to dock 1-2 capitals could ease small corporations, including WH ones.
This ships can be even visible on the citadel structure , so every one will know what ships are docked, or if he can dock another.

CCP change from 100mil to 7bil investment , just to keep 1 capital safe is quite big change.

For big alliances ability to dock 1-2 capitals to medium citadel will not change much.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#42 - 2015-10-29 16:05:40 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Can medium citadels get ability to store limited, and small number of capitals.
Currently you can leave in a small tower capital floating under a forcefield , this will probably be not possible in citadels.

This gets us from position where investing 100 mil in a small tower allows you to keep somewhere a capital "safe" to a position , that you can do the same investing a 7bil in a large citadel.

This will kill smaller groups operations.

Giving Medium citadel ability to dock 1-2 capitals could ease small corporations, including WH ones.
This ships can be even visible on the citadel structure , so every one will know what ships are docked, or if he can dock another.

CCP change from 100mil to 7bil investment , just to keep 1 capital safe is quite big change.

For big alliances ability to dock 1-2 capitals to medium citadel will not change much.



Why do you NEED to dock those capitals?

Why is tethering not enough? You can tether up to Titans at a medium
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#43 - 2015-10-29 16:47:20 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Can medium citadels get ability to store limited, and small number of capitals.
Currently you can leave in a small tower capital floating under a forcefield , this will probably be not possible in citadels.

This gets us from position where investing 100 mil in a small tower allows you to keep somewhere a capital "safe" to a position , that you can do the same investing a 7bil in a large citadel.

This will kill smaller groups operations.

Giving Medium citadel ability to dock 1-2 capitals could ease small corporations, including WH ones.
This ships can be even visible on the citadel structure , so every one will know what ships are docked, or if he can dock another.

CCP change from 100mil to 7bil investment , just to keep 1 capital safe is quite big change.

For big alliances ability to dock 1-2 capitals to medium citadel will not change much.

If you have capitols, where a very cheap Niggy is like what? 1.5-2B. Dreads start at 2.5B. I mean you got that sort of ISK you can afford the better protection of docking. 7B seams fine.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#44 - 2015-10-29 17:47:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Terra Chrall
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Proper recap of everything we've said so far tied to this.


Further information on asset safety:


  • Citadels in wormhole spaces do not benefit from asset safety. All items are lost when the structure is destroyed there.

I'm okay with this, though it seems an odd disadvantage over say NULL sec. Of course I understand the increased difficulty for logistical movement of sufficient forces into a WH. I just think it odd that there was no in between of all assets are safe verse all are open to loot. For instance could WH Citadels have 2 classes of personal hangars, 1 unlimited in size and vulnerable to drop everything. And a second smaller one 50-100km3 that would work with a safe asset mechanic? (Edit: to prevent exploiting alts, have a cap based on the size of the structure) My contention is since the risk will be greater there should be advantages so that the risk reward model holds up.

Also there was discussion in another thread of trying to keep these engagements to no more than 48 hours. For smaller WH groups this seems to increase the risk even more as they may not have time to stage an evac of their home.

WH life is unique and I am all for keeping things that way, including a higher level of risk. But please keep risks vs rewards in mind for those of us that choose to dwell in the holes and new game features..
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#45 - 2015-10-29 18:55:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Poranius Fisc
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Quote:
There is no station interior.


So does this mean the captain's quarters is going bye-bye?

Lame.
Sometimes its nice to sit there.

Especially if you managing stuff while in station and your not in the mood to ship spin.

I was actually looking foward to them opening up stations.

WIth dust/ the new stuff coming out(eventually). It opens up some cool things.

That and it just me be cool to be able to walk down to an automated hanger and use my character to go to a console to "fit my ship".

This would be a cool thing for citadels too.. I don't really see the point in making the larger ones soo expendable.

This is just going to open up the possibility of large BLOC's blowing them up just because they want to move their capitol fleet and get big kill mails.

"They wouldn't do that. People don't just grief people in eve for the sake of greifing". Not everyone, but this is going to happen.

There is no reason for sov expansion as it stands, so just to mess with people, They are going to blow up your XL or L citadels.

There's a good amount of alliances that could do this. At least with the outposts, it mixed it up with the entosis. Personally I think it would be better as a mixture, where you need the entosis to flip a L/XL citadel, but you still need the damage dealers there to force into low end structure.
Lt Shard
Team Pizza
Good at this Game
#46 - 2015-10-29 21:05:25 UTC
Please consider removing assets recovery entirely or making a large portion not make it onto the recovery.
That or add it back onto wormholes and stop handholding kspace and ******* us in the ass.

thanks
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#47 - 2015-10-30 03:59:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Xindi Kraid
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
I'm going to unpin the other structures threads and link them all here as we are running out of space in this forum subsection.

Well last dev post in any of them WAS some months ago.

Any idea when we might hear any more thoughts on specialized structures?
Hopefully you are thinking where to go next before citadels launch, so you can roll new stuff out without too much delay
===
I am wondering why you are treating W-space ENTIRELY differently from other areas of space where asset safety is concerned.
It really isn't fair to let every single other area recover the entirety of their personal assets while people in W-space lose EVERYTHING. What makes W-space so special that it makes you lose everything?
Certainly you can add some sort of asset recovery system that still results in some danger whether it exposes you, or requires you to plop a new structure. At the same time, 100% of assets back seems surprisingly generous for deep null


Kenneth Feld wrote:

Why do you NEED to dock those capitals?

Why is tethering not enough? You can tether up to Titans at a medium

Because it means you can't get out of your ship if you want it to remain safe.
Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2015-10-30 04:46:19 UTC
Perhaps because Wspace is ENTIRELY different from every other type of space?
Anthar Thebess
#49 - 2015-10-30 11:06:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
It is not about me , but new groups don't have tons of isk.
I still remember when years ago we gathered isk on our first corp jump freighter, it took ages.
We , as a corp had 2 capital pilots , and 1 carrier. This ship provided us whole logistic capabilities for a while.

If at this point we would need to invest 7bil to have ability to store a single capital ship , our ventures to null sec could be totally different.

Rich and big groups will have no big issue to have a large citadel somewhere , but if we are talking about new 5-10pople corporations, that will try to do something in null or wormhole space, then CCP is drastically raising the stake.

From 100mil to have single capital ship secured , to 7bil.
Remember that not all people have a spare capital ship pilot to logout ship near the citadel.
Just to clarify.
This will not affect me, as I'm just finishing training 5th capital character in order to speed up process of moving them.
All JDC V.

For sake of new players , give them ability to store 1-2 capitals in medium citadel.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#50 - 2015-10-30 11:45:35 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
I'm going to unpin the other structures threads and link them all here as we are running out of space in this forum subsection.

Well last dev post in any of them WAS some months ago.

Any idea when we might hear any more thoughts on specialized structures?
Hopefully you are thinking where to go next before citadels launch, so you can roll new stuff out without too much delay
===
I am wondering why you are treating W-space ENTIRELY differently from other areas of space where asset safety is concerned.
It really isn't fair to let every single other area recover the entirety of their personal assets while people in W-space lose EVERYTHING. What makes W-space so special that it makes you lose everything?
Certainly you can add some sort of asset recovery system that still results in some danger whether it exposes you, or requires you to plop a new structure. At the same time, 100% of assets back seems surprisingly generous for deep null


Kenneth Feld wrote:

Why do you NEED to dock those capitals?

Why is tethering not enough? You can tether up to Titans at a medium

Because it means you can't get out of your ship if you want it to remain safe.



Hmm, maybe we have different definitions of safe

Safe logging from tethered will be inherently more safe than docked, if you are docked and it gets blown up, you have to pay 15% to get your stuff back unless you build a new citadel


As far as why W-space is being treated entirely differently is because they we sooooo friggin mad when they heard their **** was going to be safe, we almost had a nuclear meltdown. They had a long talk and town hall with devs and the current policy is what came of it.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#51 - 2015-10-30 17:07:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Xindi Kraid
Ok then maybe flip it around, what makes BFE nullsec special that it DOES save all your **** from being blown up?
===
Edit: So the more I think about it, the more I think Small citadels should be a thing in order to make up for smaller sized POSes being removed. Something that goes up and comes down quick (both with the unanchor button and manually with guns) for those quick staging area and tiny corp things.

Also, it might not be a bad idea to have a medium rig that adds a captial ship maintenance array (with a limited capacity) so smaller groups that do have capitals can replace their POSes without incurring the ton of extra expense a Large requires. Alternatively add a way to tether unmanned ships (I prefer the former since it leaves less crap floating in space, though it is more limited). Either way, something to mitigate the loss of the leave your capitals floating in the POS shield gameplay that's going to be lost.

My own experience in wormholes is that nearly all capital assets end up floating in space for lack of somewhere to put it, and if you are stuck using a medium, that's still a problem since there's usually a hefty need to reship, so you can't just have someone sitting in the capital ships.
ThePiachu Avar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#52 - 2015-10-30 17:21:01 UTC
Questions!

1)

CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • X-Large Citadels: all ships can dock.
  • [/list]


    Does this mean that supers and titans can dock? The keynote from Vegas was rather confusing on that part, implying that they would be only able to tether.

    2) Is there a limit to what system X-Large Citadels can be anchored in? Say, "only in nullsec / w-space", or "nullsec, w-space, lowsec", or will everyone be able to place them everywhere?
    Xindi Kraid
    Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
    Arataka Research Consortium
    #53 - 2015-10-30 17:26:02 UTC
    ThePiachu Avar wrote:

    Does this mean that supers and titans can dock? The keynote from Vegas was rather confusing on that part, implying that they would be only able to tether.
    I am pretty sure they explicitly said, yes supercaps can dock at XLs. The art for the XL they even pointed out the avatar for scale was undocking from the station.
    Poranius Fisc
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #54 - 2015-10-30 18:29:00 UTC
    Xindi Kraid wrote:
    ThePiachu Avar wrote:

    Does this mean that supers and titans can dock? The keynote from Vegas was rather confusing on that part, implying that they would be only able to tether.
    I am pretty sure they explicitly said, yes supercaps can dock at XLs. The art for the XL they even pointed out the avatar for scale was undocking from the station.

    And can get blown up too!!

    What happens if a pilot was logged off in an XL citadel in a Titan and the citadel was blown up with the pilot still in it?

    Did your corpse and the Titan get hauled away by interbus? or do you log in where the citadel was...

    Maybe docking at this stage isn't as safe as you think.

    Personally id like to See Larges and Extra Larges take the place of outposts and tie into Perma sov with the option of tearing them down if you are the owner / sov holder. It's a lot of isk to throw away for someones killmail.
    Kenneth Feld
    Habitual Euthanasia
    Pandemic Legion
    #55 - 2015-10-30 18:59:53 UTC
    Poranius Fisc wrote:
    Xindi Kraid wrote:
    ThePiachu Avar wrote:

    Does this mean that supers and titans can dock? The keynote from Vegas was rather confusing on that part, implying that they would be only able to tether.
    I am pretty sure they explicitly said, yes supercaps can dock at XLs. The art for the XL they even pointed out the avatar for scale was undocking from the station.

    And can get blown up too!!

    What happens if a pilot was logged off in an XL citadel in a Titan and the citadel was blown up with the pilot still in it?

    Did your corpse and the Titan get hauled away by interbus? or do you log in where the citadel was...

    Maybe docking at this stage isn't as safe as you think.

    Personally id like to See Larges and Extra Larges take the place of outposts and tie into Perma sov with the option of tearing them down if you are the owner / sov holder. It's a lot of isk to throw away for someones killmail.



    Then the titan pilot will get laughed at.

    You can dock, stretch your legs etc

    Personally, I will undock, tether and safe log prior to logging out for the night
    Kenneth Feld
    Habitual Euthanasia
    Pandemic Legion
    #56 - 2015-10-30 19:02:17 UTC
    Xindi Kraid wrote:
    Ok then maybe flip it around, what makes BFE nullsec special that it DOES save all your **** from being blown up?
    ===
    Edit: So the more I think about it, the more I think Small citadels should be a thing in order to make up for smaller sized POSes being removed. Something that goes up and comes down quick (both with the unanchor button and manually with guns) for those quick staging area and tiny corp things.

    Also, it might not be a bad idea to have a medium rig that adds a captial ship maintenance array (with a limited capacity) so smaller groups that do have capitals can replace their POSes without incurring the ton of extra expense a Large requires. Alternatively add a way to tether unmanned ships (I prefer the former since it leaves less crap floating in space, though it is more limited). Either way, something to mitigate the loss of the leave your capitals floating in the POS shield gameplay that's going to be lost.

    My own experience in wormholes is that nearly all capital assets end up floating in space for lack of somewhere to put it, and if you are stuck using a medium, that's still a problem since there's usually a hefty need to reship, so you can't just have someone sitting in the capital ships.



    Because for all except wormholes, if you give a player the chance to use a citadel and get allt heir stuff blown up, vs using a NPC station in lowsec or NPC null, they will move their stuff and no one will use citadels for much other than small time staging

    CCO will have spent years developing something that at best will get used very little and general player QOL will suffer
    Nafensoriel
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #57 - 2015-10-30 20:42:49 UTC
    Xindi Kraid wrote:
    Ok then maybe flip it around, what makes BFE nullsec special that it DOES save all your **** from being blown up?
    ===
    Edit: So the more I think about it, the more I think Small citadels should be a thing in order to make up for smaller sized POSes being removed. Something that goes up and comes down quick (both with the unanchor button and manually with guns) for those quick staging area and tiny corp things.

    Also, it might not be a bad idea to have a medium rig that adds a capital ship maintenance array (with a limited capacity) so smaller groups that do have capitals can replace their POSes without incurring the ton of extra expense a Large requires. Alternatively add a way to tether unmanned ships (I prefer the former since it leaves less crap floating in space, though it is more limited). Either way, something to mitigate the loss of the leave your capitals floating in the POS shield gameplay that's going to be lost.

    My own experience in wormholes is that nearly all capital assets end up floating in space for lack of somewhere to put it, and if you are stuck using a medium, that's still a problem since there's usually a hefty need to reship, so you can't just have someone sitting in the capital ships.


    Actually this is quite simple to answer.

    Wormholes allow an incredible amount of income for personal users. No the corps directly don't make isk like moongoo in nullsec but individually you pull the highest isk per hour in the game potentially.
    The downside to this advantage is risk. You can lose your stuff.. and you cant use all the same toys as everyone else. You have to work a little to get that potential and you have to fight to keep it.

    A citadel with this level of infinitely scalable isk generation allows a WH corp to seriously exploit the transfer system. One C5 site is enough to buy, deploy, and destroy a small citadel. Safe 100% risk free movement of your stuff to NSpace for a 15% tax?
    Do you see now why item transference in a WH is a terrible and literally game breaking idea?
    O2 jayjay
    Trent Industries
    Hell Dawn
    #58 - 2015-10-30 20:57:51 UTC  |  Edited by: O2 jayjay
    HS Citidal

    I have a big concern. Lets say I want to have a strong presence in Jita when these stations come out. I place a Large citidal in Jita and try to make it a new trade hub. Its late and i have to woek the the morning so I log off. 2 hours after I log off someone places a Large citidal in Jita to compete with me. 6 hours after he drops his station I log in and im like WTF and want to contest the station being built. I war dec the corp but it takes 24 hours before im able to shoot. The station cannot be fires upon and only has a 15 min window before I have to go thru a long process to destroy it. Can we
    A: Reduce the war dec timer
    B: Increase the time it takes a station to deploy to 48hrs
    C: in the 15 min window, make it availabe to where anyone can attack it but you go suspect. (Without a wardec)
    D: extend the window to 12 hours on its first deployment. (15 mins apply after the structure was properly deployed and not contested in the 12 hr window.)

    That way it gives players time to contest citidal being built in their region and we dont get station being deployed everywhere. I understand it take 30 mins at its respectable DPS but attacking it 3 times while having days in between is alot of work and if you miss one timer you have to start all over. Can we make it possiable to clear a station in a weekend? Start Friday night and end Sunday night kinda thing?

    Thank you
    Locke Deathroe
    Clan 86
    Antesignani Alliance
    #59 - 2015-10-30 21:42:02 UTC
    Current POS equipment and BPO's as well as current Outpost and outpost upgrades with the respective BPO's

    WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN WITH THEM??

    Owning the vast majority of those BPO's and having them fully researched is a hell of an ISK pool. Several times in the past CCP has removed or changed something and we get a "reimbursement" as you call it that amounts to an insult compared to the actual value of that item or BPO. Given we make a fair amount of these components and sell/trade them it will be a massive blow to not just my alliance but I am sure others as well.

    To me the ONLY logical solution is to grant replacement BPO's as well as replacement modules that have already been built in a 1 to 1 ratio. I will be understanding of the lost research time on the BPO's but to simply remove the BPO and give us a complete insult amount of ISK for them is a joke. Think about the billions of ISK in faction POS towers and faction POS mods alone that everyone would be out of. Since I have no seen any mention of a citadel that is "faction" I doubt you would even be able to compensate people for that type of loss.

    In every post / discussion / video CCP keep skirting this issue and to those of us that have made the time and ISK commitment to this part of the game over the last decade I feel something needs to be said.

    Respectfully,

    Locke Deathroe
    ATA Exec
    Poranius Fisc
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #60 - 2015-10-30 21:59:47 UTC
    Locke Deathroe wrote:
    Current POS equipment and BPO's as well as current Outpost and outpost upgrades with the respective BPO's

    WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN WITH THEM??

    Owning the vast majority of those BPO's and having them fully researched is a hell of an ISK pool. Several times in the past CCP has removed or changed something and we get a "reimbursement" as you call it that amounts to an insult compared to the actual value of that item or BPO. Given we make a fair amount of these components and sell/trade them it will be a massive blow to not just my alliance but I am sure others as well.

    To me the ONLY logical solution is to grant replacement BPO's as well as replacement modules that have already been built in a 1 to 1 ratio. I will be understanding of the lost research time on the BPO's but to simply remove the BPO and give us a complete insult amount of ISK for them is a joke. Think about the billions of ISK in faction POS towers and faction POS mods alone that everyone would be out of. Since I have no seen any mention of a citadel that is "faction" I doubt you would even be able to compensate people for that type of loss.

    In every post / discussion / video CCP keep skirting this issue and to those of us that have made the time and ISK commitment to this part of the game over the last decade I feel something needs to be said.

    Respectfully,

    Locke Deathroe
    ATA Exec

    They will probably get removed and you may or may not get reimbursed for them.