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Dev blog: Building your Citadel, one block at a time

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Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#61 - 2015-10-26 17:19:37 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
The quantities of T2 salvage required for an XL rig are absolutely batshit insane. There is not enough available market supply across the entire eve universe to build more than a couple of any of these. The price of T2 salvage will go so high no one will ever be able to afford T2 rigs for anything ever again


Additionally, I'm not sure that the fuel requirements for using service modules plus the fuel block use during construction is going to be enough to replace the fuel use from POSes when they are eventually sunset'ed. Might be worth considering having the structure fuel blocks also be a component in the destructible rig construction adding more to the demand for those elements and relieving some of the pressure on the salvage market.
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
#62 - 2015-10-26 17:19:37 UTC
Saede Riordan wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Saede Riordan wrote:

This is for larges specifically which is only important for the larger low class groups that have dozens of capitals needing to be stored. Mediums will be able to be brought in with transports, so an attacking group can just use medium citadels.

If you've been building "dozens" of capitals you can build one more.


Those capitals have a purpose, and are useful for a lot of things. Its not about the cost, its about the usefulness. A freighter that can't leave is only useful for one thing, deploying large and XL citadels. Why would they make us build a ship that is entirely and completely useless out of deploying large structures? What's wrong with POCO type gantries?

And if you want to look at cost, consider that currently, you can store your capitals at a tower with an XL SMA for less then a billion ISK. With these changes, you need to invest in a 7+ billion isk structure, and then another 2 billion isk to build the freighter whose only job is to drop off the citadel. I could have used that isk to build more capitals!

Yo dawg I herd you like capitals, so we're gonna make you build a capital to deploy a structure to store yo capitals. No other area of space needs to do this, just low-class wormhole space that only we wormhole hillbilly folk care about. Builds space-character! Puts space-hair on your space-chest! Seriously though, low-classers are used to having to perform extra feats of logistics that other small corps need not bother with. More of the same from CCP really. Besides, a freighter serves another purpose: bait. Hull tanking Obelisk gogo!

I am also a human, straggling between the present world... and our future. I am a regulator, a coordinator, one who is meant to guide the way.

Destination Unreachable: the worst Wspace blog ever
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#63 - 2015-10-26 17:20:13 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
The quantities of T2 salvage required for an XL rig are absolutely batshit insane. There is not enough available market supply across the entire eve universe to build more than a couple of any of these. The price of T2 salvage will go so high no one will ever be able to afford T2 rigs for anything ever again.




Currently outpost upgrades require a quantity of other materials such as:
Construction Blocks
Hydrogen Batteries
Plutonium
Superconductors

It would make sense if rigs also required a quantity of these materials to produce as they're intended to replace outpost upgrades. This would relieve some pressure on the PI market and ensure these materials are still used at least as often as before.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#64 - 2015-10-26 17:20:55 UTC
perhaps adding more salvage too ship wrecks could help with keeping T2 rig prices down, although i suppose the new stations will also drop some salvage.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#65 - 2015-10-26 17:22:49 UTC
Azahar Ortenegro wrote:
xttz wrote:
[quote=Eodp Ellecon]Citadels are not the only structure type that will replace starbases. Starbases will also not be removed from the game until their functionality is fully replaced.

Please take your reactionary shitposting to another thread.



I'm working with what CCP provides. Since this devblog, nothing has been said about the other types of structures except for the Market and Office structures, merged and renamed Citadels in this devblog. Basic functionalities provided by Small and Medium POSes will be moved to citadels with:

1/ A loss in size choice.
2/ A BPO 12 to 48 times more expensive than it currently is.

Saying i'm shitposting isn't going to make my posts less relevant.

You don't need to own a citadel/other structure BPO to own one of the structures. Purchase one from someone else.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2015-10-26 17:23:38 UTC
Azahar Ortenegro wrote:
Since this devblog, nothing has been said about the other types of structures except for the Market and Office structures, merged and renamed Citadels in this devblog. Basic functionalities provided by Small and Medium POSes will be moved to citadels with:

1/ A loss in size choice.
2/ A BPO 12 to 48 times more expensive than it currently is.

Saying i'm shitposting isn't going to make my posts less relevant.

they're not relevant

Quote:
Please note the Citadel Hulls and their associated blueprints are the most expensive structure set due to the importance regarding asset safety and home defense. Other structures will vary in price based on their role and intended persistence.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#67 - 2015-10-26 17:23:44 UTC
Saede Riordan wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Saede Riordan wrote:

This is for larges specifically which is only important for the larger low class groups that have dozens of capitals needing to be stored. Mediums will be able to be brought in with transports, so an attacking group can just use medium citadels.

If you've been building "dozens" of capitals you can build one more.


Those capitals have a purpose, and are useful for a lot of things. Its not about the cost, its about the usefulness. A freighter that can't leave is only useful for one thing, deploying large and XL citadels. Why would they make us build a ship that is entirely and completely useless out of deploying large structures? What's wrong with POCO type gantries?

And if you want to look at cost, consider that currently, you can store your capitals at a tower with an XL SMA for less then a billion ISK. With these changes, you need to invest in a 7+ billion isk structure, and then another 2 billion isk to build the freighter whose only job is to drop off the citadel. I could have used that isk to build more capitals!


Don't forget you're also going to have to purchase a BPC for the Citadel and build the actual citadel in system vs. buying a packaged one off the market.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#68 - 2015-10-26 17:24:38 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
[paranoia]
I've noticed that medium citadel does not require factory and lab construction components to build.
[/paranoia]

Does it mean that research/invention/manufacturing would not be available in medium citadels, or it's just an arbitrary component set that in no way reflects the structure capabilities?


This. Does this mean if I want to run reactions I will need to invest in a 7B isk Large citadel? Because currently every reaction in the eve universe is done at a POS. If the minimum investment becomes 7B isk, you can pretty much kiss the entire T2 and 3 markets goodbye. Only the people with direct access to moons and gases will ever run them, because buying gasses and moon goo off the market will be a complete loss for years.


Arbitrary components, do not reflect actual capability. Remember you can fit service modules into the proper slots as long as you have fittings. Some modules may be specialized in the future, but none of the basic service modules should be. Remember though that you'll get more bonuses if you fit rigs and modules into the hull that fits the proper theme (ex: citadel rigs into a citadel hull).
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#69 - 2015-10-26 17:27:11 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

We can always tweak copy times around, those numbers aren't final, just a first draft. Which number would you have in mind?

Copy time or cost probably should be changed - I think copy time is the big outlier here. You have some idea of how many of these structures you expect will exist but my guess is a few dozen at most in the first year. You shouldn't be able to make many more bpcs than structures intended to be deployed. You need a bpc market of course - not every null alliance can be expected to put up 700b to get their foot in the door - but you've got to have it so the bpcs any one bpo can produce are some fraction of expected demand. With a base build time of 30 days, I'd set copy time to at least 30 days and probably much more - unlike supercapitals, there is no need for you to copy this bpo to produce with it safely. You can produce in-station off the bpo itself so copy time can be a freebie for when the bpo is not in use and can be longer than the production time, even several multiples of it without it being a big problem for the market.

The bpo cost of these is 10x what a titan bpo costs, the bpc copy time is ~1/6th of a titan bpo copy time, and most titan bpcs are pretty cheap. Leviathans are the only one where the bpo isn't glutted but even those run only 1-2b each.

I'd probably make it a several month base copy time so that you get people buying the bpos initially so they can get a leg up on deploying them and use of the bpo is tilted more towards manufacturing than copying. At a minimum producing them and copying them should be roughly the same time or at a minimum at the ratio of t2 bpos. Copying in 1/6th of the time to build it seems way, way off.


Fair point, duly noted, we'll iterate on copy time. Thanks!
Anthar Thebess
#70 - 2015-10-26 17:28:48 UTC
What about current outposts - to what size of the of citadel they will be changed.

What about NPC stations in sov space - will they be changed?
Finally what about NPC stations in NPC null - if you make them destructible - i think 'next day' MOA , or SOE will be homeless .

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Don Aubaris
#71 - 2015-10-26 17:32:37 UTC


What is going to happen with the current POS elements and the current fuel blocks?

Don't you think it warrants some attention how you are going to do the conversion?
Just so I can rage quit early Twisted
Centurax
CSR Engineering Solutions
Citizen's Star Republic
#72 - 2015-10-26 17:34:10 UTC
Nice work on the Citadels, really cant wait.

I have 2 comments on the information so far:

1. Price for the BPO's as stated are 10 times market value, don't you think this will price out so many people even for the Medium Citadels. How about the following prices:
* 1bil for the Medium
* 10bil for the Large
* 100bil for the XL

2. Also how about making a freighter (repackaged) able to fit in a DST for those who might want to deploy a Large Citadel in a WH? Cant see a good reason as to why we have to build a expensive and practically useless ship in a C1-C4 wormhole to be able to deploy a Large. You would still have to deploy a Medium with a factory (when they are available) or a POS to build the Large tower before transferring it to a ship big enough to launch it, just seems like a pointless step to build a Freighter first, so I offer the suggestion of having the repackaged volume of a freighter small enough to fit in a DST so it can be moved in and out but not give the advantage of being able to haul large amounts of materials in or out.
Azahar Ortenegro
Seashells and Fireflies
#73 - 2015-10-26 17:38:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Azahar Ortenegro
Querns wrote:

You don't need to own a citadel/other structure BPO to own one of the structures. Purchase one from someone else.


True. But since Citadels replace Ship Maintenance Arrays, Corporate and Personal Hangar Arrays and Control Towers, anyone already owning those BPOs should be able to afford a Medium-siezd Citadel BPO. We're not even close. The current tag price goes from 625 millions (Small Tower) to 1B (Large Tower), for the same services.

EvilweaselSA wrote:

they're not relevant

Quote:
Please note the Citadel Hulls and their associated blueprints are the most expensive structure set due to the importance regarding asset safety and home defense. Other structures will vary in price based on their role and intended persistence.


Please read what you quote, and think about it before posting. It will save some database space.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#74 - 2015-10-26 17:40:45 UTC
Azahar Ortenegro wrote:
Querns wrote:

You don't need to own a citadel/other structure BPO to own one of the structures. Purchase one from someone else.


True. But since Citadels replace Ship Maintenance Arrays, Corporate and Personal Hangar Arrays and Control Towers, anyone already owning those BPOs should be able to afford a Medium-siezd Citadel BPO. We're not even close. The current tag price goes from 625 millions (Small Tower) to 1B (Large Tower), for the same services.


It's not apples to apples. POSes have fuel requirements from 100-400M/mo. Citadels do not use fuel to provide basic services, only service modules will require them (Market, Cloning, Reprocessing, Compression)
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#75 - 2015-10-26 17:43:25 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
Azahar Ortenegro wrote:
Querns wrote:

You don't need to own a citadel/other structure BPO to own one of the structures. Purchase one from someone else.


True. But since Citadels replace Ship Maintenance Arrays, Corporate and Personal Hangar Arrays and Control Towers, anyone already owning those BPOs should be able to afford a Medium-siezd Citadel BPO. We're not even close. The current tag price goes from 625 millions (Small Tower) to 1B (Large Tower), for the same services.


It's not apples to apples. POSes have fuel requirements from 100-400M/mo. Citadels do not use fuel to provide basic services, only service modules will require them (Market, Cloning, Reprocessing, Compression)



from the blog.


Modules: these are structure modules that fit into a structure’s high, medium and low slots. Similar to their ship module counterparts, they require powergrid and CPU to be properly fitted. Active modules also require capacitor, fuel, or both depending on the circumstances



thus its still in the air if defense things need fuel.
Azahar Ortenegro
Seashells and Fireflies
#76 - 2015-10-26 17:45:19 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
It's not apples to apples. POSes have fuel requirements from 100-400M/mo. Citadels do not use fuel to provide basic services, only service modules will require them (Market, Cloning, Reprocessing, Compression)


It's not really the point. Currently, only the Tower requires fuel. That cost is being moved to the service modules. It has nothing to do with the BPO price, and the removal of small/medium in-space storage facilities.
Bellasarius Baxter
Zilog Enterprises
#77 - 2015-10-26 17:49:01 UTC
I havent read through alle the comments, so this might be a duplicate.

The structure fuel block estimated price calculation seems bugged to me. There is no way that I can come up with, that will add up to an estimated price of around 45K ISK.

Or am I missing something ?
Grorious Reader
Mongorian Horde
#78 - 2015-10-26 17:51:59 UTC
Dear CCP,

Please for the love of god, do not change the name of the Missile Guidance Thingie. Leave it exactly as it is.

Thank you.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#79 - 2015-10-26 17:54:16 UTC
Bellasarius Baxter wrote:
I havent read through alle the comments, so this might be a duplicate.

The structure fuel block estimated price calculation seems bugged to me. There is no way that I can come up with, that will add up to an estimated price of around 45K ISK.

Or am I missing something ?

There was a correction -- those listings are for a run of fuel blocks. Each run produces 40 blocks.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#80 - 2015-10-26 17:54:41 UTC
Azahar Ortenegro wrote:
Querns wrote:

You don't need to own a citadel/other structure BPO to own one of the structures. Purchase one from someone else.


True. But since Citadels replace Ship Maintenance Arrays, Corporate and Personal Hangar Arrays and Control Towers, anyone already owning those BPOs should be able to afford a Medium-siezd Citadel BPO. We're not even close. The current tag price goes from 625 millions (Small Tower) to 1B (Large Tower), for the same services.

EvilweaselSA wrote:

they're not relevant

Quote:
Please note the Citadel Hulls and their associated blueprints are the most expensive structure set due to the importance regarding asset safety and home defense. Other structures will vary in price based on their role and intended persistence.


Please read what you quote, and think about it before posting. It will save some database space.


When POS were introduced you couldn't make ISK like you can now. There's so many other differences between a POS and a Citadel, you can't expect the prices to be 1:1.

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