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Dev blog: Building your Citadel, one block at a time

First post First post
Author
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#41 - 2015-10-26 16:58:49 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Are those research/copy times in minutes or in seconds? Can't seem to find anything online to clarify those units.


Seconds. If those were in minutes you would be waiting 1805 days to manufacture a X-L Citadel Twisted.

As Aryth pointed out this basically means that when you buy a 700b bpo, you make copies every 5 days (before bonuses). That means a single BPO will effectively flood the market with copies. It means that anyone buying a bpo will have more copies than they can possibly use, which they'll sell in jita...driving down the cost of a bpc to miniscule prices on your 700b bpo. It means it's a really dumb purchase and it's hard to even justify as a means to ensure you always have the ability to build an XL, or to make a profit, or really any reason. Its especially odd how much less time it is to copy these things than a titan bpo, which requires copies to be usable, and which costs 1/10th of what this costs.

It puts these bpos in a really awkward spot for a 700b investment that just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. You don't get exclusivity, you don't have any hope of a profit, I'm not sure why anyone would buy one instead of waiting around for someone to not do the math.


Would these be better sold as BPC from NPC's then? It would be a constant isk sink but you would have no way of getting a better researched copy?
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#42 - 2015-10-26 16:59:39 UTC
The quantities of T2 salvage required for an XL rig are absolutely batshit insane. There is not enough available market supply across the entire eve universe to build more than a couple of any of these. The price of T2 salvage will go so high no one will ever be able to afford T2 rigs for anything ever again.


http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Alain Colcer
Agiolet Security and Logistics
#43 - 2015-10-26 17:00:26 UTC
Please consider adding Hydrogen batteries to the Component fuel block, those items have hardly any use, besides t2 shield extenders.
xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#44 - 2015-10-26 17:00:49 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Are those research/copy times in minutes or in seconds? Can't seem to find anything online to clarify those units.


Seconds. If those were in minutes you would be waiting 1805 days to manufacture a X-L Citadel Twisted.

As Aryth pointed out this basically means that when you buy a 700b bpo, you make copies every 5 days (before bonuses). That means a single BPO will effectively flood the market with copies. It means that anyone buying a bpo will have more copies than they can possibly use, which they'll sell in jita...driving down the cost of a bpc to miniscule prices on your 700b bpo. It means it's a really dumb purchase and it's hard to even justify as a means to ensure you always have the ability to build an XL, or to make a profit, or really any reason. Its especially odd how much less time it is to copy these things than a titan bpo, which requires copies to be usable, and which costs 1/10th of what this costs.

It puts these bpos in a really awkward spot for a 700b investment that just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. You don't get exclusivity, you don't have any hope of a profit, I'm not sure why anyone would buy one instead of waiting around for someone to not do the math.


We can always tweak copy times around, those numbers aren't final, just a first draft. Which number would you have in mind?


At the very least they should take longer than Titan BPCs to be worthwhile.
Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2015-10-26 17:01:23 UTC
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#46 - 2015-10-26 17:03:51 UTC
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
[paranoia]
I've noticed that medium citadel does not require factory and lab construction components to build.
[/paranoia]

Does it mean that research/invention/manufacturing would not be available in medium citadels, or it's just an arbitrary component set that in no way reflects the structure capabilities?


This. Does this mean if I want to run reactions I will need to invest in a 7B isk Large citadel? Because currently every reaction in the eve universe is done at a POS. If the minimum investment becomes 7B isk, you can pretty much kiss the entire T2 and 3 markets goodbye. Only the people with direct access to moons and gases will ever run them, because buying gasses and moon goo off the market will be a complete loss for years.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Yadaryon Vondawn
Vicanthya
#47 - 2015-10-26 17:03:53 UTC
Will these citadels in any way make use of the high-tech items found in the data sites? Seems to me like an opportune moment! I quote :

CCP RedDawn wrote:

* High Tech items are on my list to make useful
CCP RedDawn


Big smile
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#48 - 2015-10-26 17:04:43 UTC
Yeah, as Xttz said it needs to be at least a titan. Or failing that at least a month on the BPO baseline.

That is the area this makes economic sense and the market not blown out within 90-120 days.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2015-10-26 17:05:15 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
[paranoia]
I've noticed that medium citadel does not require factory and lab construction components to build.
[/paranoia]

Does it mean that research/invention/manufacturing would not be available in medium citadels, or it's just an arbitrary component set that in no way reflects the structure capabilities?


This. Does this mean if I want to run reactions I will need to invest in a 7B isk Large citadel? Because currently every reaction in the eve universe is done at a POS. If the minimum investment becomes 7B isk, you can pretty much kiss the entire T2 and 3 markets goodbye. Only the people with direct access to moons and gases will ever run them, because buying gasses and moon goo off the market will be a complete loss for years.

Reactions aren't likely to exist in the same form that they do now. Same for moon minerals. I wouldn't think too hard about it at this juncture.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#50 - 2015-10-26 17:06:27 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Saede Riordan wrote:

This is for larges specifically which is only important for the larger low class groups that have dozens of capitals needing to be stored. Mediums will be able to be brought in with transports, so an attacking group can just use medium citadels.

If you've been building "dozens" of capitals you can build one more.


Those capitals have a purpose, and are useful for a lot of things. Its not about the cost, its about the usefulness. A freighter that can't leave is only useful for one thing, deploying large and XL citadels. Why would they make us build a ship that is entirely and completely useless out of deploying large structures? What's wrong with POCO type gantries?

And if you want to look at cost, consider that currently, you can store your capitals at a tower with an XL SMA for less then a billion ISK. With these changes, you need to invest in a 7+ billion isk structure, and then another 2 billion isk to build the freighter whose only job is to drop off the citadel. I could have used that isk to build more capitals!
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#51 - 2015-10-26 17:06:49 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
The quantities of T2 salvage required for an XL rig are absolutely batshit insane. There is not enough available market supply across the entire eve universe to build more than a couple of any of these. The price of T2 salvage will go so high no one will ever be able to afford T2 rigs for anything ever again.




thats my biggest concern here as rigs are usually a fair chunk of a fully fitted ship as it is, surely there are enough worthless salvage components that could be used as the bulk for the new rigs instead.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#52 - 2015-10-26 17:07:39 UTC
Eodp Ellecon wrote:
"You know that to build really tall buildings and such, cranes are built on site and taken down when the building is done. Sacrificing a freighter to get that medium structure seems like small potatoes when it comes to wormholes"


"A Medium structure hull may be deployed from an Industrial, Large and X-Large require a freighter" Dev Blog

So a Medium can be done from a DST.
Freighter does Large (and then can dock)

Reading w/o panic is hard.


Has it been stated yet if Freighters can be built (or even dock) in mediums, or just L / XL structures?

Azahar Ortenegro wrote:
So you're entirely removing Small and Medium POSes. Bad move, small corps won't be able to settle as easily as before. And you're putting the BPO price at 6B instead of 500 millions for a Large POS (250 for a Medium, 125 for a Small.)

Nice way to tell part of the players "Get the **** out.", taking what we already have and demanding 6B (plus the prod cost \o/) to get it back.


Citadels are not the only structure type that will replace starbases. Starbases will also not be removed from the game until their functionality is fully replaced.

Please take your reactionary shitposting to another thread.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2015-10-26 17:08:40 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

We can always tweak copy times around, those numbers aren't final, just a first draft. Which number would you have in mind?

Copy time or cost probably should be changed - I think copy time is the big outlier here. You have some idea of how many of these structures you expect will exist but my guess is a few dozen at most in the first year. You shouldn't be able to make many more bpcs than structures intended to be deployed. You need a bpc market of course - not every null alliance can be expected to put up 700b to get their foot in the door - but you've got to have it so the bpcs any one bpo can produce are some fraction of expected demand. With a base build time of 30 days, I'd set copy time to at least 30 days and probably much more - unlike supercapitals, there is no need for you to copy this bpo to produce with it safely. You can produce in-station off the bpo itself so copy time can be a freebie for when the bpo is not in use and can be longer than the production time, even several multiples of it without it being a big problem for the market.

The bpo cost of these is 10x what a titan bpo costs, the bpc copy time is ~1/6th of a titan bpo copy time, and most titan bpcs are pretty cheap. Leviathans are the only one where the bpo isn't glutted but even those run only 1-2b each.

I'd probably make it a several month base copy time so that you get people buying the bpos initially so they can get a leg up on deploying them and use of the bpo is tilted more towards manufacturing than copying. At a minimum producing them and copying them should be roughly the same time or at a minimum at the ratio of t2 bpos. Copying in 1/6th of the time to build it seems way, way off.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#54 - 2015-10-26 17:08:52 UTC
xttz wrote:

Has it been stated yet if Freighters can be built (or even dock) in mediums, or just L / XL structures?

IIRC, freighters can enter mediums, as a special case.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2015-10-26 17:09:57 UTC  |  Edited by: EvilweaselSA
Saede Riordan wrote:

And if you want to look at cost, consider that currently, you can store your capitals at a tower with an XL SMA for less then a billion ISK. With these changes, you need to invest in a 7+ billion isk structure, and then another 2 billion isk to build the freighter whose only job is to drop off the citadel. I could have used that isk to build more capitals!

on the other hand, your large citidel is like a million times more useful than your pos with weak-ass weapons, easy theft, and the like which is why you're desperate to deploy one

edit: and bad reprocessing, bad interface, no market, i mean the list goes on, you're getting a gigantic gift that vastly improves wormhole life to the tune of what is essentially an outpost and you're complaining about the cost of building a freighter? we've been paying 20b+ for the features you're getting at 9b (including the freighter).
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#56 - 2015-10-26 17:11:06 UTC
If racial fuel is being moved away from in caps, and now in citadels with the removals of POS's, just make one two of ice needed and jack the amounts on it up. It's goto be easier converting one of the current ice types that are generic to each area vs making bpos or convention kits for nullsec.

What is being done besides the Structure fuel with the rest of the racial ice? If its not being repurposed its sitting in bellt a wastes system resources. Make some story line lore about a new mining technique that extracts some new element from the ice and that makes the fuel. This element is found in all racial ices, so it just gets added to the table and reuse some image for it in cargo.

That has to be easier then making conversion tables for each fuel type?
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#57 - 2015-10-26 17:11:33 UTC
Regarding freighter requirements in wormholes, remember that, with sufficient trust, you only need one freighter for an unlimited number of deployed citadels.

It also puts a measure of security for your wormhole, as enemies attempting to set up inside your hole will have to anchor a medium to build their OWN freighter.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Chavez Domingo
Vision Inc
Hole Control
#58 - 2015-10-26 17:14:27 UTC
wasnt a large citadel at 80.000m³ that can fit into a orca... no need for a freighter than...
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#59 - 2015-10-26 17:18:46 UTC
Querns wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
[paranoia]
I've noticed that medium citadel does not require factory and lab construction components to build.
[/paranoia]

Does it mean that research/invention/manufacturing would not be available in medium citadels, or it's just an arbitrary component set that in no way reflects the structure capabilities?


This. Does this mean if I want to run reactions I will need to invest in a 7B isk Large citadel? Because currently every reaction in the eve universe is done at a POS. If the minimum investment becomes 7B isk, you can pretty much kiss the entire T2 and 3 markets goodbye. Only the people with direct access to moons and gases will ever run them, because buying gasses and moon goo off the market will be a complete loss for years.

Reactions aren't likely to exist in the same form that they do now. Same for moon minerals. I wouldn't think too hard about it at this juncture.


Thx, I'll try not to panic too much.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Azahar Ortenegro
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2015-10-26 17:18:59 UTC
xttz wrote:
[quote=Eodp Ellecon]Citadels are not the only structure type that will replace starbases. Starbases will also not be removed from the game until their functionality is fully replaced.

Please take your reactionary shitposting to another thread.



I'm working with what CCP provides. Since this devblog, nothing has been said about the other types of structures except for the Market and Office structures, merged and renamed Citadels in this devblog. Basic functionalities provided by Small and Medium POSes will be moved to citadels with:

1/ A loss in size choice.
2/ A BPO 12 to 48 times more expensive than it currently is.

Saying i'm shitposting isn't going to make my posts less relevant.