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[December] Balance Smorgasbord

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Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#281 - 2015-10-20 03:58:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Nafensoriel wrote:
If the rattlesnake spawned in any other region of eve online they would be nearly 1b per hull.


Nawh, that is silly.

With the exception of the Nestor and the Barghest, i.e. ones you can't farm via anomalies, all the pirate battleships have tumbled in price over the past year, and it's not just the over-farming. Yes Grr Gons is obligatory in that the Rattlesnake has perhaps taken a huge dive in price, but it's not like other regions don't have lots of ratting going on too. As of writing this post...

Bhaalgorn - 406m
Vindicator - 608
Nightmare - 368
Rattlesnake - 338
Machariel - 458


Mach sees pretty good usage; you can rat, fleet, or solo with it just fine. Clearly they know how to farm in Angel Space too. It might be a little higher in a musical sov scenario, but not by that much.



That may be due to marauder rebalance and it coming into its own again.

Rattler has held its low pricing for a good long run now. Even when other pirates were 1 bill rides (hull only pricing).

Many others on that list fell out of favor as equivalent marauders improved. this would be pve having a say more than pvp. Sales have to reflect the better buyers. Pirate BS comps for PVP are the exception not the norm for most. Price to the bears who now have a better t2 bs option a very possible wise move we saw here. IN this way (grrr) goons pushed out some rattlers long ago. Cheap yet potential good choice (player tastes dictate how good oc) over golem....they could charge a bit more to be honest and it still sell. But they never have really.

I like vindi for example , hate the fact it will take all of my max fitting skills and just craps on them. I like to be "cheap" on pve fits. Less I have to buy is less I am paying off to get ROI on the buy. Plus less loot piñata factor. So I prefer t2 base fit then I so how shiny it gets. Key thing is its a t2 fit I build on. Shiny optional. This I get on say kronos. Not on vindi.

So vindi kind of has to be cheap(er) now. I can already assume 3 fn mag stabs and/or other pricey mods just to clear grids (not even performance minded hear....my cpu and pg is dying fast in eft the reason). Looking at 400-500 mil mods alone, want to sell them lets get that prices to lower than kronos t2 fit in some way. Easier path than adjusting mod market prices to get to same result really.
Jus'not N'miFace
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#282 - 2015-10-20 04:40:43 UTC
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Punisher:
Let's talk about the Punisher.
Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow.
We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways.
These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high.
  • +1 Turret
  • +1 Lowslot
  • +10 PWG
  • +13 CPU
  • Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level



    • agreed it is crap that just to use a weapon system they are designed for that they need to waste a ship bonus to use them. Everyone asked for mid slot and to this guys point if it's gonna be laid out like slicer then make it fast and give it optimal bonus ... or just do what everyone is telling you and make that slot a mid!!!. No one will fly this ship anymore and you have failed for the punnisher. maybe you'll get it right next year when you need to buff it again because nobody still uses.. much like you are now having to re buff the rifter because you didn't listen to anybody.also tristan needs more of a nerf I don't know why you have such a hard on for all the gallente ships fozzie and insist they be the best ships in eve but get over it.

    most other changes are good I'm just sick of the punnisher sucking for so long and this is the BS you come up with... moronic

    What? this is the opposite of what everyone wanted. The punisher is slow as crap, unagile and cannot web anything. Because it can't web it can't keep up even with merlins purely because of WEBS. 2 mid slots is abhorrent. The punisher needs the webifier to compete with the other brawlers. giving it a 5th lowslot doesn't do anything but allow me to fit some non-utility mod like a nanofiber or overdrive. The 10% cap usage bonus again? its a crutch bonus because lasers just gobble cap meanwhile you now have 3 frigates with the SAME cap usage bonus and no other 2nd combat bonus like every other ship in the game gets. Unsurprisingly the Tormentor and Executioner have the SAME ship bonuses, the only two ships in the game to have such an unoriginal set up.
    Jus'not N'miFace
    Dead's Prostitutes
    The Initiative.
    #283 - 2015-10-20 05:31:55 UTC
    Trinkets friend wrote:
    Um, Fozzie, ever considered dropping Artillery PG a tad versus just adding PG to hulls that don't need it?

    I mean...you compare the PG needs of HML, RLML's and HAMs and they are mostly on par. But AC's and Arty are like two completely different weapon systems.

    Orthrus DPS nerf of 12.5% is OK. it just means that your kitefag cancer takes a little longer to kill you at 40km, which allows you to table flip a bit less and sulk less often. GG.

    The problem is the oversupply of PG and fitting capacity here. That remains unresolved.

    The Navy osprey will still remain uncompetitive. The extra drones are handy, but it's still a completely subpar missile boat with nothing going for it. Just a little bit less of nothing, now.

    Gila and Worm nerfs are long overdue. They'll still be popular, but now just a bit slower at killdozering the bejeezus out of everything. kinda the same orthrus argument, viz, the tanks are just a wee bit OP. The CPU nerf on the Worm might be interesting, as it has some really tight fitting already. Will reserve judgment on that.

    Barghest buff is...welcome, i guess. It still needs a little something. Also a smaller model. it's bigger than most capitals.


    this just drop arty pg... fixed
    Lan Wang
    Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
    Safety. Net
    #284 - 2015-10-20 06:39:35 UTC
    Ares Desideratus wrote:
    cecil b d'milf wrote:
    Lan Wang wrote:
    tristan really needs a nerf to drones, maybe its dronebay, i think 1 flight of lights is enough for a t1 frig


    5m3 less bandwidth would be far more meaningful

    Drone frigates should be able to field a full flight of drones. Tristan is hardly even OP, so -10ms is good enough to "bring it back in line".

    Speaking of drone frigates that have gimped drone bays, Crucifier and Sentinel both deserve to field 5 light drones. They're good ships as it is, but are more geared toward ewar support, but if they had the full flight of drones it would make them more usable for solo and small gangs.


    Yeah i think it should be able to field 5 but it should also only be able to carry 5, not 8

    Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

    Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
    Fourteen Maken
    Karma and Causality
    #285 - 2015-10-20 07:10:28 UTC
    Jus'not N'miFace wrote:
    Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:


    Punisher:
    Let's talk about the Punisher.
    Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow.
    We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways.
    These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high.
  • +1 Turret
  • +1 Lowslot
  • +10 PWG
  • +13 CPU
  • Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level



    • agreed it is crap that just to use a weapon system they are designed for that they need to waste a ship bonus to use them. Everyone asked for mid slot and to this guys point if it's gonna be laid out like slicer then make it fast and give it optimal bonus ... or just do what everyone is telling you and make that slot a mid!!!. No one will fly this ship anymore and you have failed for the punnisher. maybe you'll get it right next year when you need to buff it again because nobody still uses.. much like you are now having to re buff the rifter because you didn't listen to anybody.also tristan needs more of a nerf I don't know why you have such a hard on for all the gallente ships fozzie and insist they be the best ships in eve but get over it.

    most other changes are good I'm just sick of the punnisher sucking for so long and this is the BS you come up with... moronic

    What? this is the opposite of what everyone wanted. The punisher is slow as crap, unagile and cannot web anything. Because it can't web it can't keep up even with merlins purely because of WEBS. 2 mid slots is abhorrent. The punisher needs the webifier to compete with the other brawlers. giving it a 5th lowslot doesn't do anything but allow me to fit some non-utility mod like a nanofiber or overdrive. The 10% cap usage bonus again? its a crutch bonus because lasers just gobble cap meanwhile you now have 3 frigates with the SAME cap usage bonus and no other 2nd combat bonus like every other ship in the game gets. Unsurprisingly the Tormentor and Executioner have the SAME ship bonuses, the only two ships in the game to have such an unoriginal set up.



    If the punisher got a tracking bonus with this new layout it would be good in so many roles - even solo. please make this happen
    Moac Tor
    Cyber Core
    Immediate Destruction
    #286 - 2015-10-20 08:56:09 UTC
    Nafensoriel wrote:
    Why would you try and brawl mike tyson when you can shoot him from across the room?
    Yay great.. you out brawled brawlers. That's idiots fighting you. Snipe the rattle. Make it run. You don't have to scram it. A kill is not always the only way to win a fight.

    Admittedly I'm used to fighting over objectives. If you are just out to get kills them sure you have a point.

    Yes you can try and snipe it from 100km but it'll just warp off or MJD straight into you.

    W0lf Crendraven wrote:

    Price wise sure, pvp wise no. A mach, vindi or barhest is a lot scarier to face then a rattler.

    A mach, definitley not, the rattlesnake is much better, even a tempest does more damage these days. A vindi is good, but it does less dps and has to get close to apply its damage, so again the rattlesnake it much better. The barghest I haven't had so much experience with so I couldn't say.
    Xequecal
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #287 - 2015-10-20 11:11:59 UTC
    The only time missiles have ever worked as a large-scale doctrine is when your doctrine was based around your opponents not being able to shoot back at all. This was the basis behind the old pre-nerf Drake fleets and 100mn Tengus. The Rattlesnake obviously can't do this so it's bad.

    Missiles are just hilariously useless at long ranges when there's logi on the field.
    Vimsy Vortis
    Shoulda Checked Local
    Break-A-Wish Foundation
    #288 - 2015-10-20 13:41:51 UTC
    I fly a Barghest a lot these days and I think it's probably taken over from the Bhaalgorn as my favorite pirate battleship so I'm happy to see it getting a buff. Though honestly I don't think dps or lack of utility highs are an issue for it at all.

    I think overall the major weakness of the barghest compared to other pirate battleships is its extremely low EHP. Fit for either shield or armor the thing is super flimsy compared to the other pirate battleships which easily get 200k+ buffers. It's not like kiting is a practical option since even though it is comparably fast it's still a battleship so you're always going to get tackled by something.
    W0lf Crendraven
    The Tuskers
    The Tuskers Co.
    #289 - 2015-10-20 18:27:17 UTC
    Moac Tor wrote:


    W0lf Crendraven wrote:

    Price wise sure, pvp wise no. A mach, vindi or barhest is a lot scarier to face then a rattler.

    A mach, definitley not, the rattlesnake is much better, even a tempest does more damage these days. A vindi is good, but it does less dps and has to get close to apply its damage, so again the rattlesnake it much better. The barghest I haven't had so much experience with so I couldn't say.



    Nah, the mach is still the scariest bs to meet in a small scale scenario. A rattler is damage with nothing else bar its highslots, its so incredibly slow and its weapon system is **** if you know what to do, so its really not that scary.


    Dont get me wrong, i like the rattler and i think its is very strong, in a 1v1 scenario where warping out isnt allowed it is unkillable as i dont think any other ship can pull off a passive (i.e cap independent) recharge of over 2.4k. If it gets to do dps its suoer scary and all the abov mentioned ships would die in a brawl vs it. Its just that in the current meta you can ignore it 100%, big drones are super slow and a single web deals with a gecko forever. It then is a slow rhml ship without massive damage. If however a mach or a barghest shows up you are in trouble.
    Styphon the Black
    Forced Euthanasia
    #290 - 2015-10-20 18:28:26 UTC
    Ok I agree that Worm/Gila/Snake are all over powered for their class. I love them all and think they are great ships. I agree that a modification in stats is due. But why does CCP always seem to miss the target on what the actual problem is when the suggest a fix.

    The problem why those ships are overpowered isn't that the have two many low slots or too much CPU. It is that they have a 300/500/275% bonus to drone damage. That is the stat that needs to be changed not the removal of a low slot. Allow some variation in fitting and keep the low slot and CPU intact @Fozzie and just reduce the drone damage bonus by "x" amount to get the desired effect.



    Poranius Fisc
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #291 - 2015-10-20 19:58:49 UTC
    Styphon the Black wrote:
    Ok I agree that Worm/Gila/Snake are all over powered for their class. I love them all and think they are great ships. I agree that a modification in stats is due. But why does CCP always seem to miss the target on what the actual problem is when the suggest a fix.

    The problem why those ships are overpowered isn't that the have two many low slots or too much CPU. It is that they have a 300/500/275% bonus to drone damage. That is the stat that needs to be changed not the removal of a low slot. Allow some variation in fitting and keep the low slot and CPU intact @Fozzie and just reduce the drone damage bonus by "x" amount to get the desired effect.





    I agree it should be reduced, but I think that should be tied into Gallente battleship level instead of "here you go, free more damage without necessarily having the skills".
    Justin Cody
    War Firm
    #292 - 2015-10-20 20:58:34 UTC
    Barrogh Habalu wrote:
    Justin Cody wrote:
  • Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level
    • This is unacceptable - you should just adjust lasers cap use so we don't need a passive gunnery bonus just to use the ship. Imagine if you will any gallente or caldari turret vessel that had a bonus like this effectively removing a gunnery bonus. This doesn't make it less susceptible to energy neuts. If it had a cap battery like bonus then ok that would be interesting but that cap use bonus to lasers deserves retirement like the KE lock.

    OTOH, you're getting more slots than other ships. In the end it's final stats that matter, not how you achieve them (mostly). Not that I'm fan of cap bonus, but this particular change doesn't break anything. You're getting stats improvements, a slot, little bit of DPS and considerable cut of cap consumption. When it's applied, who cares how it was achieved?


    good we can replace one gunnery/missile bonus on all your non amarr ships with a cap use bonus including on projectile ships. because who cares right?
    Flyinghotpocket
    Small Focused Memes
    Ragequit Cancel Sub
    #293 - 2015-10-20 22:07:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Flyinghotpocket
    lets continue to force amarr to have ONLY laser weapon based frigates.

    EVERY OTHER RACE IN THE GAME HAS 2 WEAPON SYSTEMS IN THEIR FRIGATE LINE UP!

    amarr? lasers. EF IT screw missiles screw drones, screw amarr. just give the punisher rockets already.

    Caldari 2 missile frigates 1 hybrid frigate
    gallente 3 hybrid 1 drone
    minmatar 1 missile 2 projectile
    amarr....... 3 energy turrets

    just give amarr their missile frigate (to follow khanid) or completely change ONE of the amarr frigates to be a drone ship so that pilots can have a combat drone ship line

    t1 amarr frigate(combat drones[should be punisher])/ t1 amarr cruiser(combat drones[probably maller])/ prophecy/ armageddon

    Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
    Trinkets friend
    Sudden Buggery
    Sending Thots And Players
    #294 - 2015-10-21 01:11:17 UTC
    To the guy from Catastrophic Overview and his cohorts complaining about the nerf to the Gila tank....excuse me?

    You guys are supplying fits with 4 LSE's in the mids. Four. Most battleships only fit two. i mean, i know the Scorpion navy issue exists IN THEORY but it doesn't exist n-game to any practical extent, so this statement holds true. internet-true.

    I often go to nullsec and run a Drone Herd/Horde/Squad or three every now and then in my Gila. It's just so hilariously easy to dump out in the ex-DRF lands in US TZ and fix your sec status; Ab Gila with a PVP fit works perfectly fine for PVE and you keep at 93% shield or better, so when the clown who comes in local tries to tackle you, you sic your drones on him and he has to quit the field because 720 DPS.

    Defending the Gila (or indeed, the Worm) in any fashion as balanced, because month-old nubs can meta-fit it and run C3's or herds/Hordes, and no other T1 cruiser can do it, is patently ridiculous.

    no T1 cruiser should be able to solo C3 sites. None. Zip. Nil. Even T3's struggle to do it for less than a jillion ISK, and you cannot get the same tank/gank out of them. It's impossible to get a passive tanked Tengu with 700 DPS and 650+ tank. (it's more likely 450 DPS and 700 tank, which you all rightly point out, is insufficient DPS).

    - - -

    Again, yet again, I will plump for a rewrite of arty PG costs to come down. Lets just take frig weapons;

    Dual light beam laser II 8 PG / 11 CPU
    Small Focused Beam II 13 PG / 19 CPU

    250mm Artyillery II 9 PG / 13 CPU
    280mm Artillery II 13 PG / 16 CPU

    75mm Railgun II 2 PG / 6 CPU
    125mm Railgun II 8 PG / 16 CPU
    150mm Railgun II 10 PG / 27 CPU

    Rocket Launcher II 4 PG / 17 CPU
    Light Missile II 7 PG / 14 CPU

    Combat Frigate hull base fittings:
    Rifter (buffed) 38 PG / 128 CPU
    Punisher (buffed) 67 PG / 140 CPU
    Incursus 45 PG / 135 CPU
    Merlin 40 PG / 180 CPU

    OK...so the Punisher now has the powergrid to possibly fit Small Focused Beam II's with some fitting rigs, but the Rifter? Lolololololololololololol.

    The Rifter needs at least 39 PG to fit the arty and something else. Minimum, even taking into account the skill benefits of PGU and AWU 5 which most frig pilots won't have for a couple of years. The Punisher has nearly TWICE the PG of the Rifter. The Merlin, though a shield tanker and a Caldari, has the CPU to fit rails. The Incursus hardly ever fits rails, but it can fit 125's easily.

    The Rifter is so far off being balanced for artillery it's a joke. The only fits concievable have zero tank, zero tracking mods and are basically guns gaffa taped to a MWD. That's not sensible.

    The Rifter needs ~51 PG to be an effective artillery boat for 280's (being barely enough for 3 x 280's and 1 x MWD; all other fitting being allowed by skill savings on weapon upgrades skills). Yes this will result in some 400 plate tanked AC boats with luxe fitting ease, but without ~51 PG the Rifter can never be an effective arty platform.

    ~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
    Templar Dane
    Amarrian Vengeance
    Ragequit Cancel Sub
    #295 - 2015-10-21 05:39:11 UTC
    Trinkets friend wrote:


    Again, yet again, I will plump for a rewrite of arty PG costs to come down. Lets just take frig weapons;

    Dual light beam laser II 8 PG / 11 CPU
    Small Focused Beam II 13 PG / 19 CPU

    250mm Artyillery II 9 PG / 13 CPU
    280mm Artillery II 13 PG / 16 CPU

    75mm Railgun II 2 PG / 6 CPU
    125mm Railgun II 8 PG / 16 CPU
    150mm Railgun II 10 PG / 27 CPU

    Rocket Launcher II 4 PG / 17 CPU
    Light Missile II 7 PG / 14 CPU

    Combat Frigate hull base fittings:
    Rifter (buffed) 38 PG / 128 CPU
    Punisher (buffed) 67 PG / 140 CPU
    Incursus 45 PG / 135 CPU
    Merlin 40 PG / 180 CPU

    OK...so the Punisher now has the powergrid to possibly fit Small Focused Beam II's with some fitting rigs, but the Rifter? Lolololololololololololol.

    The Rifter needs at least 39 PG to fit the arty and something else. Minimum, even taking into account the skill benefits of PGU and AWU 5 which most frig pilots won't have for a couple of years. The Punisher has nearly TWICE the PG of the Rifter. The Merlin, though a shield tanker and a Caldari, has the CPU to fit rails. The Incursus hardly ever fits rails, but it can fit 125's easily.

    The Rifter is so far off being balanced for artillery it's a joke. The only fits concievable have zero tank, zero tracking mods and are basically guns gaffa taped to a MWD. That's not sensible.

    The Rifter needs ~51 PG to be an effective artillery boat for 280's (being barely enough for 3 x 280's and 1 x MWD; all other fitting being allowed by skill savings on weapon upgrades skills). Yes this will result in some 400 plate tanked AC boats with luxe fitting ease, but without ~51 PG the Rifter can never be an effective arty platform.



    Just want to point out that the rifter was meant to fit autocannons. The real problem is that there isn't a tech 1 vanilla frigate designed to use artillery.

    The amarr weapon/ship tweaks the last couple years didn't address the root cause for some of the energy weapons being bad. One of the reasons they weren't that great of a weapon system is that there are only two types of small beams, dual light and focused. The medium guns share that drawback, with pulse having focused medium and heavy.....and the same for beams. [quad light beams not mentioned because they're so messed up speaking of them is heresy]

    Artillery shares that 'quirk'. Consider......

    3 models of small railguns
    2 models of small beams
    2 models of small artillery

    It's something I've been pushing for for years but never got any traction. A lot of people don't like 75mm railguns but when you compare the fitting cost to the dps/range they are outstanding weapons. [2/3rds the dps of an electron blaster for half the grid, with the option of switching to spike for 50%+ the range of a pulse laser loaded with scorch*]

    I admit that the rifter may be in a strange place, but it's not so strange if you realize it was only meant to fit autocannons. I'd also like to point out that it is one of only three tech 1 vanilla frigates to have a weapon projection bonus (atron/kestrel/rifter) and while it may not have flexibility in choosing what type of weapon it brings to bear it does have options (shield or armor, damage types, utility high). Options the proposed punisher doesn't. Though I suppose the damage type selection strength is moot since people are likely going to put autocannons on it like in the old days.


    *semi-abysmal tracking not considered
    Luscius Uta
    #296 - 2015-10-21 08:00:15 UTC
    Changes to the Punisher will probably make Autocannons fits popular again. Personally I would rather see it turned into a drone boat, to fill up the Dragoon/Arbitrator/Prophecy/Armageddon lineup, along with unbonused Turret and Launcher slots.

    Gila and Worm are too strong in their classes, so light nerfs are welcome. Worm should get its utility high slot back though, along with no changes to CPU output.

    Workarounds are not bugfixes.
    Lloyd Roses
    Artificial Memories
    #297 - 2015-10-21 08:38:15 UTC
    Trinkets friend wrote:

    OK...so the Punisher now has the powergrid to possibly fit Small Focused Beam II's with some fitting rigs, but the Rifter? Lolololololololololololol.

    The Rifter needs at least 39 PG to fit the arty and something else. Minimum, even taking into account the skill benefits of PGU and AWU 5 which most frig pilots won't have for a couple of years. The Punisher has nearly TWICE the PG of the Rifter. The Merlin, though a shield tanker and a Caldari, has the CPU to fit rails. The Incursus hardly ever fits rails, but it can fit 125's easily.


    [Punisher, Rifter fit]

    400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
    F85 Peripheral Damage System I
    'Refuge' Adaptive Nano Plating I
    'Refuge' Adaptive Nano Plating I
    Gyrostabilizer II

    1MN Afterburner II
    Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

    280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium S
    280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium S
    280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium S
    280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium S

    Small Trimark Armor Pump I
    Small Trimark Armor Pump I
    Small Ancillary Current Router I

    Can't say I don't like it. 10k ehp, 550 volleys out to 17+15 with DU, 920m/s and a 37m sigrad. 800 volleys with emp/pp/fusion, even 120dps that way. Not overwhelming, but certainly better htan a rifter.
    Xequecal
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #298 - 2015-10-21 12:18:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
    Quote:
    no T1 cruiser should be able to solo C3 sites. None. Zip. Nil. Even T3's struggle to do it for less than a jillion ISK, and you cannot get the same tank/gank out of them. It's impossible to get a passive tanked Tengu with 700 DPS and 650+ tank. (it's more likely 450 DPS and 700 tank, which you all rightly point out, is insufficient DPS).


    It's amazing to me how wormholes have been in the game this long and people still don't get how sites work. You can easily solo C3 sites in a Navy Omen. It will be pretty slow, mainly because you'll have to afterburner into range of every single ship individually and then slowly break their tank with your ~570 DPS, but you can do it.

    ALL the Exp/Kin damage in w-space from sleepers comes from their missiles. The sentry guns and all the turret DPS is pure EM/Therm. Thus, when you are in a cruiser, you can completely ignore exp/kin resists because even when you're webbed to zero by 8 sleeper frigs, those BS missiles with >300 sigs will not be doing **** for damage to you.

    The idea that you need tons of ISK to run C3s in a T3 is ridiculous. An armor tanked Loki takes no damage whatsoever from T3 sites due to the damage type issue. With only T2 stuff, you can get 800 DPS and 750 EM/Therm tank out of a drone Proteus, while at the same time running a salvager/tractor beam/expanded probe launcher in the highs to salvage nanoribbons while you run the site and keep an eye on the hole.
    Ares Desideratus
    UNSAFE SPACE
    #299 - 2015-10-21 12:38:16 UTC
    Flyinghotpocket wrote:
    lets continue to force amarr to have ONLY laser weapon based frigates.

    EVERY OTHER RACE IN THE GAME HAS 2 WEAPON SYSTEMS IN THEIR FRIGATE LINE UP!

    amarr? lasers. EF IT screw missiles screw drones, screw amarr. just give the punisher rockets already.

    Caldari 2 missile frigates 1 hybrid frigate
    gallente 3 hybrid 1 drone
    minmatar 1 missile 2 projectile
    amarr....... 3 energy turrets

    just give amarr their missile frigate (to follow khanid) or completely change ONE of the amarr frigates to be a drone ship so that pilots can have a combat drone ship line

    t1 amarr frigate(combat drones[should be punisher])/ t1 amarr cruiser(combat drones[probably maller])/ prophecy/ armageddon

    No, give the Crucifier a full drone bay so that it's actually usable in solo and small gang pvp as more than just ewar support.
    Flyinghotpocket
    Small Focused Memes
    Ragequit Cancel Sub
    #300 - 2015-10-21 12:45:56 UTC
    Ares Desideratus wrote:
    Flyinghotpocket wrote:
    lets continue to force amarr to have ONLY laser weapon based frigates.

    EVERY OTHER RACE IN THE GAME HAS 2 WEAPON SYSTEMS IN THEIR FRIGATE LINE UP!

    amarr? lasers. EF IT screw missiles screw drones, screw amarr. just give the punisher rockets already.

    Caldari 2 missile frigates 1 hybrid frigate
    gallente 3 hybrid 1 drone
    minmatar 1 missile 2 projectile
    amarr....... 3 energy turrets

    just give amarr their missile frigate (to follow khanid) or completely change ONE of the amarr frigates to be a drone ship so that pilots can have a combat drone ship line

    t1 amarr frigate(combat drones[should be punisher])/ t1 amarr cruiser(combat drones[probably maller])/ prophecy/ armageddon

    No, give the Crucifier a full drone bay so that it's actually usable in solo and small gang pvp as more than just ewar support.

    So you want the amarr to be the only race with 4 combat frigates and no ewar frigate?

    Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro