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[December] Balance Smorgasbord

First post First post
Author
Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#261 - 2015-10-19 18:19:24 UTC
Teddy KGB wrote:
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
Dude, price of rattlesnake is dictated entirely by the public. And the reason they are sooo cheap is because grr goons. That's what happens when you farm the hell outa 8/10's in guristas space. Don't ask CCP to fix this, they won't. Instead, go out and kill some more AFKtars in deklein.

Oh right so ccp need do nothing with that. right. Even if the price stood high Only Vindicator can get same damage with tech2 mods. but still half of EHP Rattle has.


A few things..

One: CCP has very little absolute control over how much we farm rattlesnake BPCs. They could triple the mineral price and we will still make rattlesnakes dirt cheap. If the rattlesnake spawned in any other region of eve online they would be nearly 1b per hull.

Two: The rattlesnake does not do "great damage" without "great sacrifice". Half its damage is crippled by zero application. This paired with a really tight CPU limit actually balances the hull. In the majority of applications a rattlesnake cant break 1100-1200 applied dps which puts it squarely in line with other pirate boats.
This is further balanced by the absolutely slow as dirt nature of a snake. Even with MWD you cant travel very quick with one. It's a semimobile turret. Vindicator can at least dance as it blaps.

Three: Where are the rattlesnake fleets blotting out the sky? You dont really seem them all that much because they are extremely limited utility compared to just about any other docrine. Being semimobile high sp turrets you dont really roll them out if you have a risk of getting bombed to death(because a rattlesnakes sig is bigger than a bloody carriers) and you absolute cannot chase anyone with a rattlesnake fleet short of a lamed crippled unfit supercarrier with no fuel... and even then its a slow race.

The snakes unique problems actually work in its favor for balance. It found its special niche and does that niche well. The gila and the worm were operating significantly above their weight classes and had no real drawbacks compared to other similar hulls.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#262 - 2015-10-19 18:28:42 UTC
Nafensoriel wrote:
Teddy KGB wrote:
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
Dude, price of rattlesnake is dictated entirely by the public. And the reason they are sooo cheap is because grr goons. That's what happens when you farm the hell outa 8/10's in guristas space. Don't ask CCP to fix this, they won't. Instead, go out and kill some more AFKtars in deklein.

Oh right so ccp need do nothing with that. right. Even if the price stood high Only Vindicator can get same damage with tech2 mods. but still half of EHP Rattle has.


A few things..

One: CCP has very little absolute control over how much we farm rattlesnake BPCs. They could triple the mineral price and we will still make rattlesnakes dirt cheap. If the rattlesnake spawned in any other region of eve online they would be nearly 1b per hull.

Two: The rattlesnake does not do "great damage" without "great sacrifice". Half its damage is crippled by zero application. This paired with a really tight CPU limit actually balances the hull. In the majority of applications a rattlesnake cant break 1100-1200 applied dps which puts it squarely in line with other pirate boats.
This is further balanced by the absolutely slow as dirt nature of a snake. Even with MWD you cant travel very quick with one. It's a semimobile turret. Vindicator can at least dance as it blaps.

Three: Where are the rattlesnake fleets blotting out the sky? You dont really seem them all that much because they are extremely limited utility compared to just about any other docrine. Being semimobile high sp turrets you dont really roll them out if you have a risk of getting bombed to death(because a rattlesnakes sig is bigger than a bloody carriers) and you absolute cannot chase anyone with a rattlesnake fleet short of a lamed crippled unfit supercarrier with no fuel... and even then its a slow race.

The snakes unique problems actually work in its favor for balance. It found its special niche and does that niche well. The gila and the worm were operating significantly above their weight classes and had no real drawbacks compared to other similar hulls.


Rattlesnake is a BRAWLER, at least thats what its massive tank suggests, but its ease of using cruises + heavy drones /sentries means it can project a long distance if it wants too, application depends on if it fights upclose torps+webs or not and it can easily do 1800dps upclose so its application of dps is still better than most ships can achieve, and the comparison too the vindi tells you its OP, as its not meant too be very mobile in the first place.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#263 - 2015-10-19 18:59:24 UTC
Nafensoriel wrote:

A few things..

Two: The rattlesnake does not do "great damage" without "great sacrifice". Half its damage is crippled by zero application. This paired with a really tight CPU limit actually balances the hull. In the majority of applications a rattlesnake cant break 1100-1200 applied dps which puts it squarely in line with other pirate boats.
This is further balanced by the absolutely slow as dirt nature of a snake. Even with MWD you cant travel very quick with one. It's a semimobile turret. Vindicator can at least dance as it blaps.

It puts out great damage with no sacrifice whatsoever. It has plenty of free low slots for damage mods, and try fitting rapid heavy missile launchers, you can easily put out 1750 dps with cruiser sized weapons, so you have perfect application at 50km+ versus anything battlecruiser and above, and you'll apply a good chunk to cruisers too, with 1750 dps even half your dps will wipe the floor with them.

So you could only be complaining that you can't apply good dps to destroyers and below, but then every other battleship has it a lot worse.

The Rattlesnake is a beast in small gang pvp bordering on OP much like the Gila and Worm.
styh Sotken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#264 - 2015-10-19 19:21:55 UTC
DPS has almost nothing to do with Application.

DPS is what's left after "application effects" is applied.

That inclues a lot of factors, that does not sum up to shooting a stationary target's resist hole.

So many EFT warriors continue to fail at basic eve math in this thread.

To put it easy for you DPS is Application's *****..
Vailen Sere
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#265 - 2015-10-19 19:44:46 UTC
Can we look at full line battleship re-balancing?
It's needed now.
Teddy KGB
Red Warming
#266 - 2015-10-19 19:51:10 UTC
General Twitch wrote:
Sad looks like my Gila won't be as useful in my C3.

no u still wont need ammo for your drones
Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#267 - 2015-10-19 19:56:44 UTC
A brawler has to chase and capture a target or it will be incapable of killing said target. A snake can never chase and it can only capture things for an extremely limited time..
Even within its own weight class a snake is going to die to the majority of other battleship doctrines.

Hell.. Show me a KB where snakes have been used more than machs or domis. You'll be hard pressed to find it.
The ships inherent slowness (94m/s) really does cripple it. Most of your complaints are EFT numbers in one to one situations. In fleet fights the snakes don't have the option of pursuing.

This is the type of fit you seem to be terrified of:
[Rattlesnake, Testbead]

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II

X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 800
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 800
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
500MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
Large Micro Jump Drive

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
[Empty High slot]

Large Core Defense Field Extender II
Large Core Defense Field Extender II
Large Core Defense Field Extender II


Berserker II x2


Trouble is... that fit cant exist. The snake doesn't have the raw CPU to do it. Hell I even left off the obligatory utility high.
For a brief moment lets consider the snake received a free 37% CPU. Lets say that fit exists.
Literally every single battleship doctrine out ranges it. Whats worse.. unlike most other battleship doctrines once this fit is out ranged its done. No damage will be applied period.

Its also HALF the speed of the currently widely used mach.
This doesn't even get into HACs and T3s...
It's also using the fastest heavy drones.. and the longest ranged heavy missiles.

The first thing you will say is "MGC". The second thing you will say is "cruise missiles".. The third thing you will say is "it has enough tank i can take some off". Notice a pattern? To get a snake to compete directly within the current fleet meta you have to sacrifice. This paired with a retardedly high SP requirement and slow speed makes it relatively self balancing.

Hate to tell you this fellas... EFT is not real life. If it was rattlesnakes would be the only thing we ever used. On paper they look better than even T3s unless you know what you are actually looking at. As it stands snakes are better positioned to be newbie friendly PVE boats and the rare high stakes defensive operation.
Teddy KGB
Red Warming
#268 - 2015-10-19 20:10:33 UTC
dude. we are talking about fleet Rattlesnake.

[Rattlesnake, New Setup 1]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
EM Ward Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
500MN Microwarpdrive II

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I

Ogre II x2
Berserker II x2
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#269 - 2015-10-19 20:26:07 UTC
Nafensoriel wrote:
Hate to tell you this fellas... EFT is not real life. If it was rattlesnakes would be the only thing we ever used. On paper they look better than even T3s unless you know what you are actually looking at. As it stands snakes are better positioned to be newbie friendly PVE boats and the rare high stakes defensive operation.

*chuckles* I've killed and died to rattlesnakes friend. Yourself on the other hand obviously has not had much experience outside of PvE given that fitting you posted, I've never seen any fitted like that.

Trust me from experience in small gang PvP situation rattlesnakes are the best battleships out there excluding marauders. If your talking large scale fleet situations such as you get in karma fleet then they are not as good as some of the others due to not being able to volley stuff off the field. In small and mid gang then it is a different story though.
Teddy KGB
Red Warming
#270 - 2015-10-19 20:26:54 UTC
and you рrobably didn't fly abaddon before comрlaning about 1350m/s rattle sрeed.. lol
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#271 - 2015-10-19 20:31:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Teddy KGB wrote:
and you рrobably didn't fly abaddon before comрlaning about 1350m/s rattle sрeed.. lol

With MWD and MJD which is the standard pvp fit you get plenty of manoeuvrability for a battleship. Like you say at 1350 it can keep up with battlecruisers and AB fitted cruisers.
Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#272 - 2015-10-19 21:17:25 UTC
True I'm not much of a small gang pilot I will yield the field to better people in that regard. Fleet fights however.. Different story.

Lets take apart Teddys fit for a moment. Without MJD its going to get murdered or at the very minimum fought to a standstill by everything with MJD. Its also suffering from exactly the same range limitations as the fairy tail fit. Sorry the fairy tail fit was a trap. Its something to make people jump a certain way in a debate. You've highlighted the inherent flaws of fleet snakes. Range, Speed, Flexibility. It will never be able to outrun a fleet that wants to kill it. Best case scenarios for a fleet of snakes is getting a lucky bubble and MJD on top of an enemy fleet or being such an annoying brick to kill they win the local field. In todays mobile war meta.. this has extremely limited usefulness.


Though for a moment lets go into snakes in small gangs. Just for sh*ts and giggles.
In what cases is a snake better than a competing battleship? Meaning what situations will the snake succeed where other battleships will not?

Side note Baddons are not always slow.. sometimes you see weird sh*t like this in cruiser gangs.
https://i.gyazo.com/eddf2084493bf4b2c6722e06980ebf99.png
Actually had to ask the lunatic wtf his fit was.
Though again the baddon suffers the same problem.. Its a brick. How many baddon fleets have been in space lately?

Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#273 - 2015-10-19 21:54:13 UTC
Nafensoriel wrote:
If the rattlesnake spawned in any other region of eve online they would be nearly 1b per hull.


Nawh, that is silly.

With the exception of the Nestor and the Barghest, i.e. ones you can't farm via anomalies, all the pirate battleships have tumbled in price over the past year, and it's not just the over-farming. Yes Grr Gons is obligatory in that the Rattlesnake has perhaps taken a huge dive in price, but it's not like other regions don't have lots of ratting going on too. As of writing this post...

Bhaalgorn - 406m
Vindicator - 608
Nightmare - 368
Rattlesnake - 338
Machariel - 458


Mach sees pretty good usage; you can rat, fleet, or solo with it just fine. Clearly they know how to farm in Angel Space too. It might be a little higher in a musical sov scenario, but not by that much.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#274 - 2015-10-19 22:04:29 UTC
Shh... we are supposed to be the big evil bad guys ruining eve remember?
Stop telling people we are not that bad.. they might actually look at us without bias for once.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#275 - 2015-10-19 22:37:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Nafensoriel wrote:
True I'm not much of a small gang pilot I will yield the field to better people in that regard. Fleet fights however.. Different story.

Lets take apart Teddys fit for a moment. Without MJD its going to get murdered or at the very minimum fought to a standstill by everything with MJD. Its also suffering from exactly the same range limitations as the fairy tail fit. Sorry the fairy tail fit was a trap. Its something to make people jump a certain way in a debate. You've highlighted the inherent flaws of fleet snakes. Range, Speed, Flexibility. It will never be able to outrun a fleet that wants to kill it. Best case scenarios for a fleet of snakes is getting a lucky bubble and MJD on top of an enemy fleet or being such an annoying brick to kill they win the local field. In todays mobile war meta.. this has extremely limited usefulness.


Though for a moment lets go into snakes in small gangs. Just for sh*ts and giggles.
In what cases is a snake better than a competing battleship? Meaning what situations will the snake succeed where other battleships will not?

Side note Baddons are not always slow.. sometimes you see weird sh*t like this in cruiser gangs.
https://i.gyazo.com/eddf2084493bf4b2c6722e06980ebf99.png
Actually had to ask the lunatic wtf his fit was.
Though again the baddon suffers the same problem.. Its a brick. How many baddon fleets have been in space lately?


The thing is you are trying to use it as a fleet ship when it isn't a fleet ship, your trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Small gang is where the rattlesnake excels. Like I said the RS has exceptional DPS and application against anything above a cruiser, and anything cruiser and below will be overwhelmed by even half of its dps anyway. It has a spare high for neut or nos against anything that comes near, and it can field a massive shield tank keeping the ship very agile so a skilled pilot can actually kite their opponents up to 50 / 60km, and being missiles and drones it has no falloff so all of its 1750 dps is applied no matter what range you are as long as the target isn't cruiser or below.

Head on its raw stats are enough to beat pretty much any other battleship in a one on one fight barring mauraders, it has room for an exceptional shield tank, and no other battleships come close to dealing 1750dps, and that isn't considering the fact it can do this at 50km+.

It's main weakness is that its damage (drones and missiles) take some time to reach the target, which is why it is not seen much in large fleets.
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#276 - 2015-10-19 22:45:05 UTC
Nafensoriel wrote:
True I'm not much of a small gang pilot I will yield the field to better people in that regard. Fleet fights however.. Different story.

Lets take apart Teddys fit for a moment. Without MJD its going to get murdered or at the very minimum fought to a standstill by everything with MJD. Its also suffering from exactly the same range limitations as the fairy tail fit. Sorry the fairy tail fit was a trap. Its something to make people jump a certain way in a debate. You've highlighted the inherent flaws of fleet snakes. Range, Speed, Flexibility. It will never be able to outrun a fleet that wants to kill it. Best case scenarios for a fleet of snakes is getting a lucky bubble and MJD on top of an enemy fleet or being such an annoying brick to kill they win the local field. In todays mobile war meta.. this has extremely limited usefulness.


Though for a moment lets go into snakes in small gangs. Just for sh*ts and giggles.
In what cases is a snake better than a competing battleship? Meaning what situations will the snake succeed where other battleships will not?

Side note Baddons are not always slow.. sometimes you see weird sh*t like this in cruiser gangs.
https://i.gyazo.com/eddf2084493bf4b2c6722e06980ebf99.png
Actually had to ask the lunatic wtf his fit was.
Though again the baddon suffers the same problem.. Its a brick. How many baddon fleets have been in space lately?


You make some valid points here.. but with a long point and a fast ECM platform, you can cripple a snake to get the big brawlers in to finish before the heavies can catch up.

My point here is not only can you not outrun, they are soo slow anyone smart can re-ship to deal with it. If you need to slow them down even more, drag bubbles 50 km off the gate and you use of the MJD is not null and void.
Teddy KGB
Red Warming
#277 - 2015-10-19 23:25:31 UTC
dude. dont tell me how to kite out and refit and counter RS. When your POS going out of RF and cyno is up you wont have much time to do that.
We are talking about rebalancing and personally i compair one BS (rattlesnake) to the rest ships of its class.
Show me other BS's with same price with same stats. And i'm not gona discus how to catch a stilleto on Rattle or any other BS. Once again im here about balance. Cos i see everyday same picture. Most BS fleets are taking Rattlesnakes, most HAC fleets use Cerberus (recently were ishtars before nerfe). Balancing game is about making people fly different ships lol, cos all of them have their benefits and weaknesses.

I just want ccp to make a good clean balance instead of killing ship classes like T3 Destroyers did with Assaults. Anyway i'm glad ccp took a balancing vector in their patches. And once again i'm repeating that Rattlesnake has damn disbalanced DPS+EHP+Range combination.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#278 - 2015-10-19 23:57:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Poranius Fisc wrote:
Nafensoriel wrote:
True I'm not much of a small gang pilot I will yield the field to better people in that regard. Fleet fights however.. Different story.

Lets take apart Teddys fit for a moment. Without MJD its going to get murdered or at the very minimum fought to a standstill by everything with MJD. Its also suffering from exactly the same range limitations as the fairy tail fit. Sorry the fairy tail fit was a trap. Its something to make people jump a certain way in a debate. You've highlighted the inherent flaws of fleet snakes. Range, Speed, Flexibility. It will never be able to outrun a fleet that wants to kill it. Best case scenarios for a fleet of snakes is getting a lucky bubble and MJD on top of an enemy fleet or being such an annoying brick to kill they win the local field. In todays mobile war meta.. this has extremely limited usefulness.


Though for a moment lets go into snakes in small gangs. Just for sh*ts and giggles.
In what cases is a snake better than a competing battleship? Meaning what situations will the snake succeed where other battleships will not?

Side note Baddons are not always slow.. sometimes you see weird sh*t like this in cruiser gangs.
https://i.gyazo.com/eddf2084493bf4b2c6722e06980ebf99.png
Actually had to ask the lunatic wtf his fit was.
Though again the baddon suffers the same problem.. Its a brick. How many baddon fleets have been in space lately?


You make some valid points here.. but with a long point and a fast ECM platform, you can cripple a snake to get the big brawlers in to finish before the heavies can catch up.

My point here is not only can you not outrun, they are soo slow anyone smart can re-ship to deal with it. If you need to slow them down even more, drag bubbles 50 km off the gate and you use of the MJD is not null and void.

So you need a gang of small frigates and a couple of brawlers to take one down? And by the way you'll need to scram it too because your long point won't stop its MJD. And good luck keeping it scrammed with drone, missiles and a nuet on you, plus the 1750 DPS it will be chucking out. And even if you ECM it that won't stop the drones or auto targeting missiles. I saw one small gang try such a technique recently, they lost 2 super tanked T3s in the process worth 2 bil, the RS was worth 400m.

Just so you can illuminate the situation a little more care to go into specifics as to what ships you suggest to outbrawl it?

The point is your tactic would not work. Only way to kill them is to pin them with something heavy and then outbrawl it.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#279 - 2015-10-20 02:06:29 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Nafensoriel wrote:
Hate to tell you this fellas... EFT is not real life. If it was rattlesnakes would be the only thing we ever used. On paper they look better than even T3s unless you know what you are actually looking at. As it stands snakes are better positioned to be newbie friendly PVE boats and the rare high stakes defensive operation.

*chuckles* I've killed and died to rattlesnakes friend. Yourself on the other hand obviously has not had much experience outside of PvE given that fitting you posted, I've never seen any fitted like that.

Trust me from experience in small gang PvP situation rattlesnakes are the best battleships out there excluding marauders. If your talking large scale fleet situations such as you get in karma fleet then they are not as good as some of the others due to not being able to volley stuff off the field. In small and mid gang then it is a different story though.


Price wise sure, pvp wise no. A mach, vindi or barhest is a lot scarier to face then a rattler.

Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#280 - 2015-10-20 02:56:12 UTC
Why would you try and brawl mike tyson when you can shoot him from across the room?
Yay great.. you out brawled brawlers. That's idiots fighting you. Snipe the rattle. Make it run. You don't have to scram it. A kill is not always the only way to win a fight.

Admittedly I'm used to fighting over objectives. If you are just out to get kills them sure you have a point.