These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[December] Balance Smorgasbord

First post First post
Author
Teddy KGB
Red Warming
#241 - 2015-10-19 14:30:53 UTC
Let me spik from my hart...
Rattlesnake is OP. Donno why you decided to leave it alone. Cos its mostly used fleet BS and best aswell nowadays.
So i will put down some standard fit that people use in their fleets

Rattlesnake (only t2 mods\T1 rigs) + Vulture siege bonuses

290k EHP (340k overloaded)
1500 DPS (1700 overloaded) - with rapid heavy missiles effective range - 50km depends on missile type, and half powergrid unused...
1730 DPS (1900 overloaded) - with torpedoes (over 2k DPS with +5 damage implants) - effective range - 20-30km

And still half of that damage invulnerable to E-War as it comes from flying drones.
Resist are very high so remote shield transfers will be supereffective
One will pay 400kk for this

I couldn't make any BS even close to this numbers using only tech 2 mods.
So i think it's not right to leave it alone.
At least its price! Standard T1 BS cost about 250-300kk+
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#242 - 2015-10-19 14:37:33 UTC
Dude, price of rattlesnake is dictated entirely by the public. And the reason they are sooo cheap is because grr goons. That's what happens when you farm the hell outa 8/10's in guristas space. Don't ask CCP to fix this, they won't. Instead, go out and kill some more AFKtars in deklein.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#243 - 2015-10-19 14:38:45 UTC
Previously you gave us an idea that pirate faction ships were supposed to be more powerful than t2. This would justify their much higher pricetag:

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg

Clearly the worm and the garmur where much more powerful than the other faction frigates so nerfing the worm was understandable.

But its hard to understand why the garmur wasn't hit. Also what about all the other pirate frigs (except the dd) that clearly are not competitive with assault ships? Do they not need some help?

Perhaps I misunderstood and the pirate frigates were not supposed to be as strong as assault ships. Or perhaps you are no longer following that model. Why would people pay more for a weaker ship in the same class?


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

cecil b d'milf
Perkone
Caldari State
#244 - 2015-10-19 14:39:42 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
tristan really needs a nerf to drones, maybe its dronebay, i think 1 flight of lights is enough for a t1 frig


5m3 less bandwidth would be far more meaningful
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#245 - 2015-10-19 14:40:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Aren't these little tweaks ignoring the elephant in the room which is ogb? That pretty much breaks everything.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

FT Cold
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#246 - 2015-10-19 14:50:18 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
FT Cold wrote:


The navy osprey fills a role that's already well filled in the navy and pirate cruiser lineup, we simply do not need to have yet another kitey missile cruiser that can shake off tackle easily. An idea I've heard before is to make the navy osprey a caldari version of the navy aug. Give it two utility highs, a hybird bonus, and a shield HP bonus. I think it's an interesting concept, and it might lead to a great ship with a variety of novel uses, instead of walking on well trodden ground.


The nosprey is **** atm m8.


I agree, I just think that a redesign is in order, rather than buffing it to where it can be yet another RLML platform.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#247 - 2015-10-19 15:01:14 UTC
cecil b d'milf wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
tristan really needs a nerf to drones, maybe its dronebay, i think 1 flight of lights is enough for a t1 frig


5m3 less bandwidth would be far more meaningful

Drone frigates should be able to field a full flight of drones. Tristan is hardly even OP, so -10ms is good enough to "bring it back in line".

Speaking of drone frigates that have gimped drone bays, Crucifier and Sentinel both deserve to field 5 light drones. They're good ships as it is, but are more geared toward ewar support, but if they had the full flight of drones it would make them more usable for solo and small gangs.
ArmyOfMe
Teddybears.
Dead Terrorists
#248 - 2015-10-19 15:01:22 UTC
Blood Animus wrote:
ArmyOfMe wrote:

Use a dual rep ishtar for c3's then. Works fine, does 730ish dps and tanks quite a bit.


3/4 of C3 sites neut and most web, the site that doesn't neut starts off at 7k alpha (undodgable in a cruiser) and the last wave alphas for 9k. Any other ideas that don't involve 2-3 month olds trying to fly HACs?

Havnt run into any issues with my dual rep ishtar in a c3 as of yet. Even with their nuets, its basicly easy to kill them before u have to go down to a single repper.
And a 2-3 months old shouldnt be soloing a c3 in the first place if u ask me.

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.

cecil b d'milf
Perkone
Caldari State
#249 - 2015-10-19 15:22:45 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
cecil b d'milf wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
tristan really needs a nerf to drones, maybe its dronebay, i think 1 flight of lights is enough for a t1 frig


5m3 less bandwidth would be far more meaningful

Drone frigates should be able to field a full flight of drones. Tristan is hardly even OP, so -10ms is good enough to "bring it back in line".

Speaking of drone frigates that have gimped drone bays, Crucifier and Sentinel both deserve to field 5 light drones. They're good ships as it is, but are more geared toward ewar support, but if they had the full flight of drones it would make them more usable for solo and small gangs.


If they can field a full flight then they shouldn't be able to fit a full rack of guns or neuts as well, there is way too much fittings on the tristan, combined with hull rigs having no drawback (that affect pvp anyway) the tristan is stupidly OP for a T1 frigate. The speed nerf is not nearly enough, it will have zero effect on the very high numbers of them being flown.
Garnoo
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#250 - 2015-10-19 15:30:01 UTC
guys, you forget about stratios... there are no other ships roaming in null... :)

People are going to try to ruin your day. Get together with others, ruin their day back -  EvE

Teddy KGB
Red Warming
#251 - 2015-10-19 15:37:48 UTC
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
Dude, price of rattlesnake is dictated entirely by the public. And the reason they are sooo cheap is because grr goons. That's what happens when you farm the hell outa 8/10's in guristas space. Don't ask CCP to fix this, they won't. Instead, go out and kill some more AFKtars in deklein.

Oh right so ccp need do nothing with that. right. Even if the price stood high Only Vindicator can get same damage with tech2 mods. but still half of EHP Rattle has.
Teddy KGB
Red Warming
#252 - 2015-10-19 15:38:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Teddy KGB
and yes. rattlesnake damage is splited. half from missiles and half from drones. it means no ship can counter it. Assault will be killed by drones, BS will be killed by drones and missiles.
i think +4% resist bonus should be removed
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#253 - 2015-10-19 15:54:26 UTC
Teddy KGB wrote:
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
Dude, price of rattlesnake is dictated entirely by the public. And the reason they are sooo cheap is because grr goons. That's what happens when you farm the hell outa 8/10's in guristas space. Don't ask CCP to fix this, they won't. Instead, go out and kill some more AFKtars in deklein.

Oh right so ccp need do nothing with that. right. Even if the price stood high Only Vindicator can get same damage with tech2 mods. but still half of EHP Rattle has.


yes the rattlesnake dps is far too high for a tanky brawling range projecting drone/missile ship, it needs the -1 slot too reduce its dps

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#254 - 2015-10-19 16:02:29 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Previously you gave us an idea that pirate faction ships were supposed to be more powerful than t2. This would justify their much higher pricetag:

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg

Clearly the worm and the garmur where much more powerful than the other faction frigates so nerfing the worm was understandable.

But its hard to understand why the garmur wasn't hit. Also what about all the other pirate frigs (except the dd) that clearly are not competitive with assault ships? Do they not need some help?

Perhaps I misunderstood and the pirate frigates were not supposed to be as strong as assault ships. Or perhaps you are no longer following that model. Why would people pay more for a weaker ship in the same class?




cause the garmur is a bad ship, its not very good (i mean it is with snakes + links, but thats not the ships fault)
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#255 - 2015-10-19 16:29:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Previously you gave us an idea that pirate faction ships were supposed to be more powerful than t2. This would justify their much higher pricetag:

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg

Clearly the worm and the garmur where much more powerful than the other faction frigates so nerfing the worm was understandable.

But its hard to understand why the garmur wasn't hit. Also what about all the other pirate frigs (except the dd) that clearly are not competitive with assault ships? Do they not need some help?

Perhaps I misunderstood and the pirate frigates were not supposed to be as strong as assault ships. Or perhaps you are no longer following that model. Why would people pay more for a weaker ship in the same class?




cause the garmur is a bad ship, its not very good (i mean it is with snakes + links, but thats not the ships fault)


I am not blaming an inanimate thing. I am actually not blaming anyone. I am just wondering why they left this ship out of the balance pass.

I guess we could say the garmur is not so powerful unless you put missiles in the highs and a disruptor or scram in the mids. Does that mean we shouldn't consider the actual ship overpowered? All of the tools currently available to eve pilots make this ship overpowered.

Hopefully some day ccp will remove ogbs. And perhaps then the ship will not be so overpowered. But that is really hard to tell because ogb give such huge bonuses.

Thats why I say these tweaks like reducing the tristan's speed by 10m/s are sort of silly when ogb just smashes all balance to hell. It's like someone trying to dry their flooded basement with a tissue.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#256 - 2015-10-19 16:47:47 UTC
This balance pass while appreciated seems a bit... unconcentrated i suppose.

There are some ships that needed tweaks (Nosprey, punisher) and the faction nerfs were welcome. However, things like looking at the breacher and sac and giving them minor updates but ignoring the muninn which is all but useless now is a bit odd. Not to mention the t1 minny cruiser line-up.

The ruppy and stabber's only redeeming characteristic is that people underestimate them because they rarely see them. So you get the surprise factor when you know how to fit a ship properly and maybe get a kill. The stabber is rarely used to kite anymore because acs are garbage, especially compared to RLML. Maybe take a look at acs, or nerf RLML or just rebuild the ruppy, stabber, vagabond and muninn from the ground up? Can minmatar get a proper HAC brawler with more than 3-4 mids?

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#257 - 2015-10-19 17:10:44 UTC
Cearain wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Previously you gave us an idea that pirate faction ships were supposed to be more powerful than t2. This would justify their much higher pricetag:

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg

Clearly the worm and the garmur where much more powerful than the other faction frigates so nerfing the worm was understandable.

But its hard to understand why the garmur wasn't hit. Also what about all the other pirate frigs (except the dd) that clearly are not competitive with assault ships? Do they not need some help?

Perhaps I misunderstood and the pirate frigates were not supposed to be as strong as assault ships. Or perhaps you are no longer following that model. Why would people pay more for a weaker ship in the same class?




cause the garmur is a bad ship, its not very good (i mean it is with snakes + links, but thats not the ships fault)


I am not blaming an inanimate thing. I am actually not blaming anyone. I am just wondering why they left this ship out of the balance pass.

I guess we could say the garmur is not so powerful unless you put missiles in the highs and a disruptor or scram in the mids. Does that mean we shouldn't consider the actual ship overpowered? All of the tools currently available to eve pilots make this ship overpowered.

Hopefully some day ccp will remove ogbs. And perhaps then the ship will not be so overpowered. But that is really hard to tell because ogb give such huge bonuses.

Thats why I say these tweaks like reducing the tristan's speed by 10m/s are sort of silly when ogb just smashes all balance to hell. It's like someone trying to dry their flooded basement with a tissue.


What i mean is that they didnt do a general balancing pass to everything, only the super weak ships (i.e punisher), the barely used (nosprey, hookbill, firetail) and the op stuff (and 2 useless buffs to 2 of the 3 best frigates). The garmur does one thing well, it kites well with lmls and mwd + long point. However, everyone knows that, the ship cant hold down fast mwd frigates and the other ones just wont engage it unless they can force it at 0. Try actually flying a garmur, you may not due very often but you wont get many kills either. That is if you fly it solo without links/implants.
General Twitch
House Aratus
Goonswarm Federation
#258 - 2015-10-19 17:14:41 UTC
Sad looks like my Gila won't be as useful in my C3. Just glad I was able to use this before the nerf. In my year of playing, everything else I've trained toward has taken a nerf bat before I can fly it. Looks like I'll train toward a rattlesnake, bet it gets nerfed before I'm effective with it Smile.

Sad about the nerf to my passive Gila. A buff to passive regen woukd be appreciated. Thats the only feedback I can offer with my limited experiance Smile. Just wanted to share some tears for the salt farmers.

I love this game so no real complaints. I look forward to exploding hilariously while trying to find a new ship/fit that works for me.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#259 - 2015-10-19 17:47:07 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Punisher:
Let's talk about the Punisher.
Quite a few people have asked about missile Punishers, but we currently aren't huge fans of dropping a missile T1 frigate into Amarr's stable without having solid support all along the T1 lineup for a missile-focused skillplan. With only Khanid T2 ships (and unbonused launchers on the droneships) further along the path, we feel this would act as a confusing set of breadcrumbs for a new player to follow.
We also think that the "laser tank and gank" archetype deserves to be represented in Amarrian T1 frigates, especially to provide a less skill-intensive alternative to the Tormentor. We don't expect it to become a dominant solo powerhouse for veterans, but it will continue to be extremely good as a newer player PVE boat and to strengthen its (quite niche) existing role in T1 frigate gangs. The two midslot layout definitely hurts the ship's power and flexibility, but that can be an interesting tradeoff if compensated for in other ways.
These changes give the Punisher one more slot than most T1 frigs, and increase damage slightly (4 effective turrets instead of 3.75) while reducing weapon cap use and adding the significant buff of an extra lowslot. In exchange it loses its utility high.

  • +1 Turret
  • +1 Lowslot
  • +10 PWG
  • +13 CPU
  • Replace the 5% damage bonus with -10% laser cap use per level




  • What? this is the opposite of what everyone wanted. The punisher is slow as crap, unagile and cannot web anything. Because it can't web it can't keep up even with merlins purely because of WEBS. 2 mid slots is abhorrent. The punisher needs the webifier to compete with the other brawlers. giving it a 5th lowslot doesn't do anything but allow me to fit some non-utility mod like a nanofiber or overdrive. The 10% cap usage bonus again? its a crutch bonus because lasers just gobble cap meanwhile you now have 3 frigates with the SAME cap usage bonus and no other 2nd combat bonus like every other ship in the game gets. Unsurprisingly the Tormentor and Executioner have the SAME ship bonuses, the only two ships in the game to have such an unoriginal set up.



    2 mids is fine, not every ship needs to be a competitive 1v1 brawler.


    Yes I agree.

    I anticipate the punisher will be a very good pve ship and it should be a fun ship to fly in a group of 5 or so.


    BTW: I wish they would give me my 1 mid 4 low coercer back.

    Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

    Einar Tarkka
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #260 - 2015-10-19 18:07:23 UTC
    General Twitch wrote:
    In my year of playing, everything else I've trained toward has taken a nerf bat before I can fly it. Looks like I'll train toward a rattlesnake, bet it gets nerfed before I'm effective with it Smile.

    Same. Was training towards an Ishtar, it got hit by the nerfbat. Trained for a Gila, almost done with the training, and decided to start training to a Rattlesnake just before this news hit. Good times.

    Oh well. Not like the skills will be useless.