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[December] Missile Disruptors and Tweaks to Missile Guidance Mods

First post First post
Author
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#281 - 2015-10-05 20:37:40 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Light missile with no velocity bonus against a all V scripted bonused ship will get a max velocity of 3887.438 m/s. 2 module on that same ship and it drop to 2843.917 m/s.


cool, whats your point?


you couldn't hit a cruiser outside scram range with those let alone a frigate.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#282 - 2015-10-05 20:58:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Light missile with no velocity bonus against a all V scripted bonused ship will get a max velocity of 3887.438 m/s. 2 module on that same ship and it drop to 2843.917 m/s.


cool, whats your point?


you couldn't hit a cruiser outside scram range with those let alone a frigate.


You can only really hit stuff not moving at all at 10km.

A condor using light missiles and boost + MWD will outpace it's own missile by nearly 500 m/s when hit by a single mod.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#283 - 2015-10-05 22:23:07 UTC
My linked cyclone does 3km/s with no implants.... Just sayin'

That's a battlecruiser.....
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#284 - 2015-10-05 22:53:08 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
can we rename tracking disruptors to turret disruptors or something while we're at it? 'optimal range tracking disruptors' is so dumb.


or better make it a weapon disruptor and let it be scripted for missles or turrets, or would that be OP ?


that would be op
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#285 - 2015-10-06 00:42:06 UTC
Consider, especially with medium missiles & torps, that the issue is in the missile base stats, not the disruptors.
Enso Nibbana
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#286 - 2015-10-06 01:30:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Enso Nibbana
I for one welcome our new ewar overlords. Will the Drifters be fitting these? Also will the effect only apply to kinetic missiles?Big smile
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#287 - 2015-10-06 01:34:07 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Q: Isn't 45% reduction to both flight time and velocity too much, since the effect stacks?
A: It's true that the effect of the two range attributes stack, so at the maximum (range scripted, on a bonused ship with links and heat) level the Missile Disruptor would reduce the total effective missile range by ~70%. However this is actually still less powerful than current Tracking Disruptors, which provide a -86% reduction in both optimal and falloff when using the same ship and bonuses.


OK, so that is one MD with scripts, links, heat from a Sentinel.

What does a 70% reduction in missile range actually look like?
Boat w/ no projection bonus
Rockets = 3km Normal / 2.53 Rage / 4.56 Javelin
LML / RLML = 12.3km Normal / 9.48 Fury / 6.3km precision
HML = 18.87 normal / 14.16 Fury / 9.42 Precision
HAMs = 6km Normal / 5km Rage / 10.1km Javelin
Cruise = 44.4km normal / 33.3km Fury / 22.2km Precision
Torpedoes = 6km Normal / 5km Rage / 10km Javelin

You can basically double that for an unbonused Missile Disruptor (because the penalty is half, ie; 35% stacked);
Rockets = 6 Normal / 5 Rage / 9 Javelin
LML / RLML = 24.6 Normal / 19 Fury / 12.6 precision
HML = 38 normal / 28 Fury / 19 Precision
HAMs = 12 Normal / 10 Rage / 20 Javelin
Cruise = 85 normal / 66.5 Fury / 44.5 Precision
Torpedoes = 12 Normal / 10 Rage / 20 Javelin

And then, obviously, add 25% for a 5% per level projection bonus and 50% for a 10% bonus, and adjust for Mordu ships.

Analysis
Lets take a ship with a utility mid like, say an Orthrus, which catches a Drake. The orthrus has a 36km unheated point, and lays a single scripted unbonused MD on the Drake. It can kite any HAM drake it wants forever. HML Drakes with Fury are toast, and precision are toast.

But also, then, on top of that we can look at the missile velocity vs orthrus velocity. The Drake's heavy missiles are slowed to 2418m/s from a bonused TD and 5240m/s unbonused. HAMs velocity is cut to 1265m/s with bonused MD, and 2,742m/s unbonused MD. Your Orthrus goes along at 2,325m/s, so it can outrun all HAM DPS entirely, if it strays within range. The HML data is a bit more problematic because the missiles actually hit, but now we have to consider the effects of sig/ER and speed/EV.

Even ignoring that, unaffected HML's apply 75% to an orthrus with 1925m sig MWDing at 2325m/s (444 paper, 325 applied, as calculated by Pyfa).
If you kludge it a bit by just increasing the apparent velocity of the Orthrus relative to the attack (ie divide 2,325/0.65 = 3,576 apparrent) then applied DPS goes from 444 paper to 287.

if we then consider a further 12% fiddle in the sig from a nerf to ER (1900 down to 1,672) then DPS drops from 287 to 264.

Therefore one unbonused Missile Disruptor will halve a Drake's applied DPS. A bonused MD will drop the applied DPS by 75% to ~156 but at this point the EV is so terribly low it also starts affecting things. Plus, of course, the missile flight time is so terrible that even normal HML's can only fly 18.8km.

I haven't even bothered modeling what happens to a HAM boat's DPS because there is no point. Even an unbonused MD totally trashes the range such that it doesn't matter - you can't hit anything, and your missiles get kited by anything. Also, forget non-bomber Torpedoes and all forms of Rocketry.

Welcome to Fozzie's great new world of midslot EWAR utility boats trashing anything, and woe betide anyone caught by a Curse with a single bonused MD. Let alone two; with two you can scram-kite HAM boats with webs and scrams with utter impunity.

Finally, there's the projection bonuses on some hulls. Yes, 25% or 50% range sounds great. But remember, these boats get a buff to flight time OR velocity, not both. A HAM Cyclone, for instance gains 25% velocity but then it will lose 35% range from an unbonused MD. It's still nett down.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#288 - 2015-10-06 02:06:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Maybe you should compare it to something similar and then explain how its broken.

E: not sarcasm
Zakks
CSR NAVY
Citizen's Star Republic
#289 - 2015-10-06 04:31:49 UTC
I'm glad I only trained 1.6M sp in missiles so far.
Switching to drones, ftw...
Ferrucio Surge
The Bag Cartel
#290 - 2015-10-06 05:38:34 UTC
RIP Missiles
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#291 - 2015-10-06 05:56:24 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
Stealth buff to drone ships.
GG.

Stealth? CCP mentioned somewhere drones can't be disrupted because of game code.

HML drakes are OP -> nerf HML
Mordus ships are OP -> introduce new MD's modules that will hit all missiles badly
Make sense.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#292 - 2015-10-06 06:40:56 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
Stealth buff to drone ships.
GG.

Stealth? CCP mentioned somewhere drones can't be disrupted because of game code.

HML drakes are OP -> nerf HML
Mordus ships are OP -> introduce new MD's modules that will hit all missiles badly
Make sense.


Aww man I was hoping they would nerf the Ishtar instead. You as in, Ishtar OP - nerf missiles Big smile


I am agreeing with Harvey on a nerf to tracking disruptors. Two nights ago I my pulse-mare was made painfully aware of how much unlinked tracking disruptors can break your turrets.

It's may only been Sanshas (the Centus kind) but it still holds. Tracking disruptors can make your ship have a very bad day.

But I think it is going to be fine.

CCP is planning of giving Caldari ships the answer to all prayers - the drifter doomsday turret, right?

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#293 - 2015-10-06 07:58:05 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
I am agreeing with Harvey on a nerf to tracking disruptors. Two nights ago I my pulse-mare was made painfully aware of how much unlinked tracking disruptors can break your turrets.

There is a e-war modules tiercide planned on winter, next will be EECM and I really hope they will start be usefull.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Lugh Crow-Slave
#294 - 2015-10-06 08:58:03 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Light missile with no velocity bonus against a all V scripted bonused ship will get a max velocity of 3887.438 m/s. 2 module on that same ship and it drop to 2843.917 m/s.


cool, whats your point?


you couldn't hit a cruiser outside scram range with those let alone a frigate.



... you mean just like when a td hits a turret ship?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#295 - 2015-10-06 08:59:11 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
I am agreeing with Harvey on a nerf to tracking disruptors. Two nights ago I my pulse-mare was made painfully aware of how much unlinked tracking disruptors can break your turrets.

There is a e-war modules tiercide planned on winter, next will be EECM and I really hope they will start be usefull.



How the hell is eccm not useful
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#296 - 2015-10-06 09:01:31 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

How the hell is eccm not useful

Are they? Against guri ECM?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#297 - 2015-10-06 10:01:06 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

How the hell is eccm not useful

Are they? Against guri ECM?


If you can look behind my sarcasm there is always a message hidden. Why do you think I said that the Caldari only "sometimes" get their ewar?

Even the sla- eeh barbariens get two kinds of ewar - Caldari sometimes. Maybe I am the only one but I always liked the jamming that the Guristas have going, which gives them an added source of danger.

Of course it is annoying but not less annoying than your ship being turn offline by one module (the Curse is cursed..).

While being useful, eccm is one of those modules that you have to decide it is worth fitting on. Logi pilot will always want one on.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
#298 - 2015-10-06 10:11:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
Stealth buff to drone ships.
GG.

Stealth? CCP mentioned somewhere drones can't be disrupted because of game code.




Sorry. But I believe that this is utter nonsense. If you can increase every drone attribute with modules and rigs fitted to a ship, some of those modules require to be active, you can apply a remote "debuff" effect to those modules as well. Essentially you would be using an Omni Directional tracking link with a negative buff and using it as a targeted module.


So, potentially, possible modules that could exist are:

Omni Directional Tracking Disruptors.
Drone Control Range Damps
Drone Navigation Disruptors (reduce speed of drones)

All of these above modules would have countered the Ishtar problem and maybe then we wouldn't have had a hideous couple of years of Ishtars online.

If defender missiles or a PDS system actually worked, bombers wouldn't be a problem.

I still stand by my idea that a working point defense system would be far better than EWAR for missile disruption. It would be far more versatile, visually stunning and actually fix two broken things in the game.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#299 - 2015-10-06 10:25:16 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
If you can look behind my sarcasm there is always a message hidden. Why do you think I said that the Caldari only "sometimes" get their ewar?

Last time I've checked guri mission on tengu, I was perma jammed by few cruisers. Hard to call that sometimes. Maybe they were changed since them but I don't recall any tweaks.
If want to introduce new e-war for missiles there need to be countermeasure for it.
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Sorry. But I believe that this is utter nonsense.

You're not the only one. There was something about formula spread between used drones, I don't remember, technical issue.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#300 - 2015-10-06 10:38:31 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
...only shortened to not get a wall of text...

All of these above modules would have countered the Ishtar problem and maybe then we wouldn't have had a hideous couple of years of Ishtars online.

If defender missiles or a PDS system actually worked, bombers wouldn't be a problem.

I still stand by my idea that a working point defense system would be far better than EWAR for missile disruption. It would be far more versatile, visually stunning and actually fix two broken things in the game.


I agree. What would you think making defender missiles work for a change? I think giving at least them full application since they only target missiles would go a long way.

If my guestimates are correct two heavy defenders would be necessary to down a citadel cruise missile or torpedo. There could be counter missile doctrines based on the same ships but with defender missiles as ammo or even just a mixed fleet with a handful of dedicated anti-missile ships. Would become as much important as tackle is.

I think this has merrit.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever