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[December] Missile Disruptors and Tweaks to Missile Guidance Mods

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#261 - 2015-10-05 16:04:42 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
It's not hard counter on unbonused hulls; my fear is that the missile one is.

Compare the effects of one unbonused disruptor on a maller and a belli (both hulls with only damage bonuses to keep it simple).

For example, beams in IN Standard range have approx the same threat range as TD aurora, tracking is worse, of course but I can fly against that.

Bonused hulls are welcome to wreck things, it's the regular hulls I'm most bothered about. These need the ECM treatment, all of them
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#262 - 2015-10-05 16:11:16 UTC
I think tds, and these new missile tds, have some fundamental flaws. No matter what people say, tds are absurdly broken if used right (i.e bonused hull, max skills, with info links), you are looking at 0.0 + 0.1 km ranges on battleships like the machariel which will always take it out of the game, no matter the piloting. However, damps (and ecm to some degree) are always effective, tds while extremely powerfull just dont have any use vs specific damage types and always lose to damps.

Tds and missile tds can go 2 ways, either no one fits them as they are to niche to use (sort of like eccm) or they get to the damp level.




And lastly, ewar is **** for the game, we need less of it, not more of it!!
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#263 - 2015-10-05 16:28:43 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

max skills, links and heat


links are getting fixed soon though right
Solarus Explorer
The Veterans' Lounge
#264 - 2015-10-05 16:37:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Solarus Explorer
Given the current state of missiles overall....... I think this is a bad idea.

Medium and Large missiles really need a significant application buff first, before any broad missile nerf should be considered.

I would also echo the sentiment that the game needs less ewar in general, not more. Tbh, if the game goes on to become ewar-online, its not gonna be fun anymore for me at least.
Lev Ironwill
Dark Nebula Academy
O X I D E
#265 - 2015-10-05 16:47:55 UTC
On a semi-related note, and not to put him in a tough spot, Gorski does good write-ups and I would be interested to see his take on the current state of missiles re: application and viability

More on topic, I cannot state enough that missiles need a good, hard look before you start complicating the issue even further. If this is a band-aid to make more players happy, then just say so. If this is part of a larger missile tiericide/balancing, then just say so. Right now it feels like you're hemming and hawing without really doing much of anything constructive for missiles.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#266 - 2015-10-05 17:00:23 UTC
please consider nerfing the base stats or maybe scripts of TD's and MD's

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#267 - 2015-10-05 17:03:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Fourteen Maken
afkalt wrote:
It's not hard counter on unbonused hulls; my fear is that the missile one is.

Compare the effects of one unbonused disruptor on a maller and a belli (both hulls with only damage bonuses to keep it simple).

For example, beams in IN Standard range have approx the same threat range as TD aurora, tracking is worse, of course but I can fly against that.

Bonused hulls are welcome to wreck things, it's the regular hulls I'm most bothered about. These need the ECM treatment, all of them


I wouldn't like to undock solo in any short range missile fit, or anything bigger than a frigate knowing these are out there. Light missiles okay - you see the disruptor icon you know it's time to disengage and move on, but you don't have that option with rocket fits. The same thing with cruisers, now an RLML Caracal can be kited to death by a t1 frigate, bellicose can definitely be kited - you'd be crazy to take the chance imo, there are bound to be people out there specifically hunting missile ships with suprise fits. RIP RHML's and missile battlecruisers, even with an MJD if you run into a gang there's bound to be one of them carrying a disruptor.

This is overkill especially given the already bad state of most missiles, we badly need ewar for drones but no mention of that ever happening
Alexis Nightwish
#268 - 2015-10-05 17:09:41 UTC
Soooooooooooo, when can we expect to see drone disruption modules?

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#269 - 2015-10-05 17:14:20 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Soooooooooooo, when can we expect to see drone disruption modules?


Why don't they just make tracking disruptors affect all drones, turrets, and missile launchers connected to any ship they are targeted on, but make them slightly weaker?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#270 - 2015-10-05 17:31:41 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Soooooooooooo, when can we expect to see drone disruption modules?


Why don't they just make tracking disruptors affect all drones, turrets, and missile launchers connected to any ship they are targeted on, but make them slightly weaker?


i could understand tracking disruptors affecting the tracking on the drones, but not on missiles aswell it would be OP, you would have omni- curses of doom all over the place

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#271 - 2015-10-05 17:53:46 UTC
It's tough trying to predict the bigger picture, but when talking about EWAR I think we have to talk about ECM.

ECM needs a full rebalance.
Caldari need a secondary EWAR characteristic. To spell it out:

-Minmatar: Target Painters + Web Range
-Gallente: Sensor Dampeners + Warp Disruption Range
-Amarr: Tracking Disruption + Energy Neutralizers
-Caldari: ECM + ??????

To me, Missile and Drone disruption EWAR would make sense to be on Caldari hulls. It would be forward thinking to do this now, and then revamp ECM into something that does Drone disruption. CCP Rise tweeted something to this effect a few months ago, as an idea for a new ECM type. Here's a good article Suitonia did on it.

Because we are only having a discussion on these changes in small iterations - such as the Missile Guidance Computer and now this thread, it's hard to understand the plan for the big picture. I have no idea what the larger plan is for fixing missile balance, ECM, Drones Disruption, etc. Can we have a broader discussion around this?
Mr Grape Drink
Doomheim
#272 - 2015-10-05 17:54:21 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
afkalt wrote:
It's not hard counter on unbonused hulls; my fear is that the missile one is.

Compare the effects of one unbonused disruptor on a maller and a belli (both hulls with only damage bonuses to keep it simple).

For example, beams in IN Standard range have approx the same threat range as TD aurora, tracking is worse, of course but I can fly against that.

Bonused hulls are welcome to wreck things, it's the regular hulls I'm most bothered about. These need the ECM treatment, all of them


I wouldn't like to undock solo in any short range missile fit, or anything bigger than a frigate knowing these are out there. Light missiles okay - you see the disruptor icon you know it's time to disengage and move on, but you don't have that option with rocket fits. The same thing with cruisers, now an RLML Caracal can be kited to death by a t1 frigate, bellicose can definitely be kited - you'd be crazy to take the chance imo, there are bound to be people out there specifically hunting missile ships with suprise fits. RIP RHML's and missile battlecruisers, even with an MJD if you run into a gang there's bound to be one of them carrying a disruptor.

This is overkill especially given the already bad state of most missiles, we badly need ewar for drones but no mention of that ever happening


I guess you also don't undock solo in any short range turret ships either knowing there are T1 frigs who can kite you to death using a TD.
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#273 - 2015-10-05 17:55:04 UTC
Duplicate Post.
Mr Grape Drink
Doomheim
#274 - 2015-10-05 18:17:54 UTC
What about remote assistance mods? Anything like that planned to match the remote tracking links? Every other ewar can be countered with remote assistance. Even TP kinda with sig boosts.
LtCol Laurentius
The Imperial Sardaukar
#275 - 2015-10-05 18:27:12 UTC  |  Edited by: LtCol Laurentius
You plan on giving this new ewar module to amarr? Why not switch it so every race get a tier 1 and tier 2 bonused ewar capability?

For example:

- Minmatar: tracking disruptors and neuts - ideal against the cap hungry amarr gunships
- Amarr: target painters and webs - slowing down and hitting the fast minmatar ships
- Gallente: Damps and missile disruptors (a very anti-Caldari set of EWAR)
- Caldari: ECM and long points (makes sense for a sniper race like caldari, also fits well with modus legion ships)

I realize such a change is a huge balance issue though :)

Or - u could go with the lore the other way around - each race having ewar that is tailored to defeat a mirror image of itself (a common flaw among armed forces):

In that case:
- the Amarr, Gallente and Minmatar bonuses are fine
- The Caldari gets ECM and missile disruptors

Incidentally, this change would also weaken the ECM part of gameplay somewhat (beeing a tier 1 ewar capability with no tier 2 bonuses)
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#276 - 2015-10-05 19:10:08 UTC
Mr Grape Drink wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
afkalt wrote:
It's not hard counter on unbonused hulls; my fear is that the missile one is.

Compare the effects of one unbonused disruptor on a maller and a belli (both hulls with only damage bonuses to keep it simple).

For example, beams in IN Standard range have approx the same threat range as TD aurora, tracking is worse, of course but I can fly against that.

Bonused hulls are welcome to wreck things, it's the regular hulls I'm most bothered about. These need the ECM treatment, all of them


I wouldn't like to undock solo in any short range missile fit, or anything bigger than a frigate knowing these are out there. Light missiles okay - you see the disruptor icon you know it's time to disengage and move on, but you don't have that option with rocket fits. The same thing with cruisers, now an RLML Caracal can be kited to death by a t1 frigate, bellicose can definitely be kited - you'd be crazy to take the chance imo, there are bound to be people out there specifically hunting missile ships with suprise fits. RIP RHML's and missile battlecruisers, even with an MJD if you run into a gang there's bound to be one of them carrying a disruptor.

This is overkill especially given the already bad state of most missiles, we badly need ewar for drones but no mention of that ever happening


I guess you also don't undock solo in any short range turret ships either knowing there are T1 frigs who can kite you to death using a TD.


To be fair I don't normally undock solo in short range turret ships either, and for exactly that reason - but I take your point. I went for a roam in a moa just to test a lolfit with an oversized prop mod and I was constantly paranoid about kiters, I felt like a sitting duck the whole time but at least I knew I could beat other brawlers... not sure I'd be happy with an RLML Bellicose that's vulnerable to brawlers and kiters.
Arla Sarain
#277 - 2015-10-05 19:40:28 UTC
Stealth buff to drone ships.
GG.
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#278 - 2015-10-05 19:47:23 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
can we rename tracking disruptors to turret disruptors or something while we're at it? 'optimal range tracking disruptors' is so dumb.


or better make it a weapon disruptor and let it be scripted for missles or turrets, or would that be OP ?

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#279 - 2015-10-05 20:00:34 UTC
Light missile with no velocity bonus against a all V scripted bonused ship will get a max velocity of 3887.438 m/s. 2 module on that same ship and it drop to 2843.917 m/s.
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#280 - 2015-10-05 20:24:46 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Light missile with no velocity bonus against a all V scripted bonused ship will get a max velocity of 3887.438 m/s. 2 module on that same ship and it drop to 2843.917 m/s.


cool, whats your point?

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]