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The state of Highsec

Author
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#61 - 2015-09-25 19:37:08 UTC
Mag's wrote:
So can the OP explain what problem he is trying to fix? I'm not seeing it.


As best I can tell, he thinks the problem is that PvP still exists. Fortunately for every real player, he's out of luck in that.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#62 - 2015-09-25 19:40:52 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mag's wrote:
So can the OP explain what problem he is trying to fix? I'm not seeing it.


As best I can tell, he thinks the problem is that PvP still exists. Fortunately for every real player, he's out of luck in that.
Ah so PvP, in a PvP centric game, is bad and we should feel bad. Good to know.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#63 - 2015-09-25 20:35:55 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mag's wrote:
So can the OP explain what problem he is trying to fix? I'm not seeing it.


As best I can tell, he thinks the problem is that PvP still exists. Fortunately for every real player, he's out of luck in that.
Ah so PvP, in a PvP centric game, is bad and we should feel bad. Good to know.


Of course. And it cannot possibly be that he's just playing the wrong game.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#64 - 2015-09-25 23:43:49 UTC
Ecrir Twy'Lar wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Ecrir Twy'Lar wrote:
incentive for experience players to move out into lowsec and nullsec for their content.



You can't blame Antagonists for taking the path of least resistance to the biggest killmails. The trick is to incentive people moving out of Hi Sec, which helps many facets of the game simultaneously.


I think no matter how much incentive you provide, if they can get free kills with no risk in Highsec, that's what they are going to do.



What's the sound of catalysts ganking, if there are no hulks around to hear it?

Content denial takes many forms. If rabid gankers aren't fed a steady stream of barges, exhumers, and freighters, they will be forced to either quit or seek prey elsewhere. The only kills they get, are the ones given to them. Stop giving them kills. Leave Hi Sec.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#65 - 2015-09-26 00:56:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Of course. And it cannot possibly be that he's just playing the wrong game.


Its never them. They always lead I tried to bring my friends in and they hate eve. They actually played the game. They learned to live with it. But not their friends.


Which, and maybe its just me, I write that off as friends have different tastes in games. All good really. Cost of games these days....put that 40-60+ (monthly subs in case of eve) into something you will enjoy. Life and money can be too short to play a game you just don't like.

I have a coworker at work who doesn't like stealth games. Tried phantom menace and hated it. I can talk all day long about the greatness of of phantom pain (Kojima-san left konami with a bang on this one, he did not screw us the players over in the political crap that severed him from konami) ....they won't jump on that wagon. Which is cool....we all have our likes and dislikes.

Eve not for for everyone. No game is.


Eve has been like this since day one and its had subscribers to keep it afloat 10+ years. Not too shabby for a game developer to be honest. Niche game is niche. Some people need to understand how niche business models work. They work by keeping a core type of client happy enough it pays the bills. If a retail store as an example they become the source for things Generic_monster_chain_store can't provide. Will they ever take on say Walmart? Nope. Pays the bills, make some profit....gratz they are a success.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#66 - 2015-09-26 04:46:35 UTC
just give us WiS.....and the ability to break into a criminals quaters whether they are logged in or not and "pod" them...successful podding....you confiscate their ship in hangar....and they wak up in nearest lowsec station.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#67 - 2015-09-26 05:48:01 UTC
Make War Dec's Matter - You can't the meta is too stronk. Neutral alts are all powerful. If CCP can find a way to penalize neutral alts with instant destruction or at least a weapons timer simply for activating reps even if the target isn't aggro'd (a la bastion) then it makes a huge difference.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#68 - 2015-09-26 06:10:51 UTC
Ecrir Twy'Lar wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
You DO know that gankers with low sec status are hunted by faction police, right? As in, if you're sitting still in a safespot, they will warp in, tackle you and kill you?

And that people already camp gates and stations waiting for flashy reds to come through?



Can you explain why ganking needs another round of massive nerfs, rather than just proposing them?


Can you explain why they should have sanctuary in the systems they are considered criminals in?


Yes, because no place in Eve is supposed to be safe. Driving gankers from the game makes it safe.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Zhaceera Armerarram
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2015-09-26 19:59:04 UTC
So basically you must have the freedom to take the freedom of other people away.

And you basically need to have tools to make your life easier using the excuse of someone else's life being easy ?

And you need to enhance the ability of people to earn by crime obscene sums of money in the hisec because people not doing crime in hisec earn too much without risk ?

And hisec must not be secure, so basically, not hisec.

That smells one thing and one thing only: Low sec is too dangeous for the "bad boys" so they must be able to do their crime under the protection of the police, so no one else attacks them while they attack someone ?

Nah. That must be met with a distribution of blocks. Ugh

"If justice is not for everyone, it is for no one."

admiral root
Red Galaxy
#70 - 2015-09-26 22:09:34 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
just give us WiS.....and the ability to break into a criminals quaters whether they are logged in or not and "pod" them...successful podding....you confiscate their ship in hangar....and they wak up in nearest lowsec station.


Sure, just so long as we can walk up behind you in the station and casually stick a vibroblade between your ribs and snag the hard currency you're carrying for some carebear item that can only be sourced that way. Also, as we're criminals, we should have an easier time breaking into your quarters while you're sleeping than those of you who role-play being self-righteous, and an easier time getting away.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#71 - 2015-09-27 01:46:00 UTC
Tappits wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

3. sec status should not be repairable at all, you made a choice deal with the consequences.


That would be fine but this game lasts for years and years and it would be a super bad game decision if something you did in 2004/2005 was un changeable years down the line.... People change what some one did a few years ago might not be there play stile now.


He's killed hundreds of defenseless people for no other reason than laughs and a bit of profit but he sure seems to want to turn his life around so lets give him the chance.

You are looking at it from the bad guy's point of view. The bad guy gets to keep his kill mail, gets to brag about his kill, gets to know he frustrated another player, etc..etc..etc.

You want to sympathize how about with the victims, they have a permanent record of their slaughter (killmail) forever, they remember the day with frustration, they permanently lose ISK and once lost it can never be made up again, you can make more but you will always be in a situation that you could have had more had you not gotten ganked.

so again, no chance to repair is how the game should be. It is a mantra of the game that you must deal with your decisions. The guy that got ganked could have played in a different space, could have rolled with more tank, could have taken friends but whatever he did he must live the the consequences of his choices that led him to be ganked forever, so should his ganker.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#72 - 2015-09-27 01:52:36 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Tappits wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

3. sec status should not be repairable at all, you made a choice deal with the consequences.


That would be fine but this game lasts for years and years and it would be a super bad game decision if something you did in 2004/2005 was un changeable years down the line.... People change what some one did a few years ago might not be there play stile now.


Besides there were many examples of pirates turning King's privateer, it should be no different in Eve (that and someone could buy a character on the bazaar and want to move up to hisec with it).


It has long been a given that if you buy a character off the bazaar you deal with whatever past that character had before, my suggestion is consistent with this long held belief and understanding.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#73 - 2015-09-27 03:42:15 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Tappits wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

3. sec status should not be repairable at all, you made a choice deal with the consequences.


That would be fine but this game lasts for years and years and it would be a super bad game decision if something you did in 2004/2005 was un changeable years down the line.... People change what some one did a few years ago might not be there play stile now.


He's killed hundreds of defenseless people for no other reason than laughs and a bit of profit but he sure seems to want to turn his life around so lets give him the chance.

You are looking at it from the bad guy's point of view. The bad guy gets to keep his kill mail, gets to brag about his kill, gets to know he frustrated another player, etc..etc..etc.

You want to sympathize how about with the victims, they have a permanent record of their slaughter (killmail) forever, they remember the day with frustration, they permanently lose ISK and once lost it can never be made up again, you can make more but you will always be in a situation that you could have had more had you not gotten ganked.

so again, no chance to repair is how the game should be. It is a mantra of the game that you must deal with your decisions. The guy that got ganked could have played in a different space, could have rolled with more tank, could have taken friends but whatever he did he must live the the consequences of his choices that led him to be ganked forever, so should his ganker.


I dont believe in that...same as working for (recovering) status with factions and NPC corps...the ability is there...but yeah just 1 more nerf.....What?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#74 - 2015-09-27 06:33:08 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Criminals should not be allowed to dock up. If you want to dock you should be in a system where you are not flagged as a criminal.

It's reasonable that if a player can spacewarp arcross a galaxy, concord can detect any and all violations within all of HS and LS then some minimum wage docking manager can see a red flashy thing on his dashboard and push the SCREW YOU SCUMBAG button to prevent a known criminal from docking in the station he is managing.

It's kind or rediculous that the docking manager can time and police agression not only outside his station, but anywere in eve (I can get a timer Hek hit a HS > HS wh and be prevented from docking in Motsu) right down to the second, but can't figure out that this clearly labelled bad guy is a bad guy.



Dearest CONCORD,

For the love of all that is fair and just, give docking managers a small raise and train them that flashy red is actually worse than flashy yellow and get this docking oversight fixed once and for all.

Suncerly,
Every reasonable pilot in eve


Actually I wouldn't mind criminals not being able to doc in NPC stations but allowed to dock in a POS. Then the gankers would need to be in a player corp, have assets in space and be vulnerable to wardecs. This would really give any industry corp a means by which to retaliate if they so wished.


This is a pretty good suggestion. I'm all about forcing players to do things in space or have things in space that are at risk.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#75 - 2015-09-27 07:58:20 UTC
What page did this become a philosophy debate?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#76 - 2015-09-27 08:39:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
so again, no chance to repair is how the game should be. It is a mantra of the game that you must deal with your decisions. The guy that got ganked could have played in a different space, could have rolled with more tank, could have taken friends but whatever he did he must live the the consequences of his choices that led him to be ganked forever, so should his ganker.

Repairing security status has a place in the game. Rehabilitation is better than locking away people for ever (safe for serious capital crimes. However, since we do not have murder/mass murder in EVE thanks to immortality, this point is moot.). However, rehabilitation should requires effort and commitment. With tags, neither nor is necessary to atone for criminal acts. By having to run missions, hunt NPC and slowly crawl back the security status (and/or faction standing, for that matter), criminals and pirates deal with the unpleasant consequences of their actions. Most pirates obviously do not care about their security status or NPC standings, but those who do or do so in later times of their EVE careers, have ways to rectify their mistakes of the past through hard work.
Similar to the ganked person who can replace the ship/modules/implants, gankers can have ways to salvage their standings and statuses. just not as quickly and easily.

I am also in support of revoking docking rights for people who have lower than -5 security status in High sec NPC stations. Even more so after the introduction of citadels and other dockable player structures.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2015-09-27 08:59:01 UTC
Most people are carebaers at heart.
They want a risk and consequence free enviroment in which they can do what they want to do. Many "pvp" players are even worse carbears than miners and mission runners. They only want risk for the other side and perfect safety for themselfs.

"No place in eve should be safe" is perfectly right. So of course ganking should always be possible. But of course the same must be true for the gankers, they should carry at least an equal risk. Which in the current state they dont. Ganking is nearly perfectly safe.
No one is going to gank your catalyst, and even if someone did, the loss would be near zero. You will loose it after the gank, but thats not a risk, thats simply a part of the cost for the kill, like ammunition.

So following the rule "no place in eve should be safe" there should be more risk for the gankers.
I liked the solution of Ultima Online:
Every illegal kill gets you a murder count. One count decays after 40hours, but the timer is reset if you get another count within that period. If you have 5 kills your name turns red and you are a valid target for everyone, everywhere. If you collect a serious number of kills, you were not going to be blue again for a long long time. No buying security tags to remove this.

I would like to see a similar system in eve. Kill too many people and you are a target for everyone. No concord protection for "murderers". For a long time. No buying out of this.
Important: this mechanic should be seperate from the current security. I do not want to set them to -5 nearly permanently, since then they would also be attacked by NPC. Thats not the point, since this would greatly reduce their ability to perform ganks. They just should also have the risk of being attacked by players. Not hiding behind concord.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#78 - 2015-09-27 14:16:00 UTC
Zhaceera Armerarram wrote:
So basically you must have the freedom to take the freedom of other people away.


Wrong. We must have the freedom to bring risk to people who otherwise would have zero. Because the game is very literally based on loss.

We are what keeps highsec existing at all, because without ganking and wars, highsec would be about twelve systems with nothing but Veldspar and level 1 distribution missions, and the rest of the game would be various flavors of lowsec.

You should be thanking them every time you see a gank.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#79 - 2015-09-27 15:22:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Marranar Amatin wrote:
Most people are carebaers at heart.
They want a risk and consequence free enviroment in which they can do what they want to do. Many "pvp" players are even worse carbears than miners and mission runners. They only want risk for the other side and perfect safety for themselfs.

"No place in eve should be safe" is perfectly right. So of course ganking should always be possible. But of course the same must be true for the gankers, they should carry at least an equal risk. Which in the current state they dont. Ganking is nearly perfectly safe.
No one is going to gank your catalyst, and even if someone did, the loss would be near zero. You will loose it after the gank, but thats not a risk, thats simply a part of the cost for the kill, like ammunition.

So following the rule "no place in eve should be safe" there should be more risk for the gankers.
I liked the solution of Ultima Online:
Every illegal kill gets you a murder count. One count decays after 40hours, but the timer is reset if you get another count within that period. If you have 5 kills your name turns red and you are a valid target for everyone, everywhere. If you collect a serious number of kills, you were not going to be blue again for a long long time. No buying security tags to remove this.

I would like to see a similar system in eve. Kill too many people and you are a target for everyone. No concord protection for "murderers". For a long time. No buying out of this.
Important: this mechanic should be seperate from the current security. I do not want to set them to -5 nearly permanently, since then they would also be attacked by NPC. Thats not the point, since this would greatly reduce their ability to perform ganks. They just should also have the risk of being attacked by players. Not hiding behind concord.



Its called outlaw status. They get this if they are really successful at thier job. You get warning signs before blinky red. it be pay attention yellow.

Cost of tags is not the out some make it. It costs money. Can be a few isk. Unless banging out some really good kills...they will see low sec soon. If this successful....well the smart bet is to keep that isk and run the loops I mentioned earlier. Or join 0.0.

Here is thier risk. When they hit low sec, and turn to sec status fixing its test time. Can they avoid pirates better than pirates can find them on pve runs. Same for 0.0 loop runs. If lucky you could find a place the owners were on a road trip to be more empty. But as 0.0 got more static (and bluer donuts of doom), these hookups got harder to get.

The gank dessie whine....fun fact, this was player asked for. CCP fix our dessies was the cry of the masses. Low level bears asked for this. FW asked for this. RvB asked for this. Gankers kept their mouth shut and said let these deemed more honorable pvp'ers get their wish so they can ride that wave too. Wish granted.
Zhaceera Armerarram
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2015-09-28 00:48:16 UTC
Another block.

It is entertaining, to be polite, that someone comes to this forums and have the audacity to claim that the crime mechanics in EVE serve to any purpose of creating risk for criminals.

Might aswell remove it and keep just the concord immediate response, which in most cases, is the only thing that criminals "may" take into consideration as risk. But actually, they mostly consider it just cost benefit.

It is funny to indulge the filosophical discussion, but everyone who claim to know EVE knows that this carebear thing was invented by people who want to play EVE as a solo FPS shooter game and resent CCP to take the MMO aspect seriously, and RPG to some extent.

Great work talking about people who take EVE seriously as being "disfunctional" while turning the game universe more and more like real politics.

"If justice is not for everyone, it is for no one."