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The state of Highsec

Author
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2015-09-25 01:08:53 UTC
That's the way the game has worked since the start. You're the one asking for the massive change, justify it.
Ecrir Twy'Lar
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-09-25 01:16:12 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
That's the way the game has worked since the start. You're the one asking for the massive change, justify it.


I already explained my reasoning. But you are making me feel like a bully. I guess I should feel bad for picking on the poor gankers. They have it so rough after all.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#23 - 2015-09-25 01:58:55 UTC
Ecrir Twy'Lar wrote:

I already explained my reasoning. But you are making me feel like a bully. I guess I should feel bad for picking on the poor gankers. They have it so rough after all.

The problem is you are focusing on the stick and punishing gankers.
The Gankers lobby group have this issue also, they focus on the stick wanting to nerf the Industrialist so they are better bait.

The best solution focuses on making it more fun for everyone involved by making people feel like they have reasonable options that don't boil down to 'run multiple accounts or just don't be there scrub' like the gankers 'but you have options' rhetoric actually comes out as.

To achieve this of course requires getting rid of the whole 'cargo ships must be weak and easy to kill' mentality and going back to the days of the Spanish main when cargo ships actually had heavy armour, large crews and lots of guns. And from there giving EVE Industrial ships equivalent PG/CPU & slots to their same size 'combat' counterparts. Just not the combat bonuses.
Ecrir Twy'Lar
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2015-09-25 02:06:09 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ecrir Twy'Lar wrote:

I already explained my reasoning. But you are making me feel like a bully. I guess I should feel bad for picking on the poor gankers. They have it so rough after all.

The problem is you are focusing on the stick and punishing gankers.
The Gankers lobby group have this issue also, they focus on the stick wanting to nerf the Industrialist so they are better bait.

The best solution focuses on making it more fun for everyone involved by making people feel like they have reasonable options that don't boil down to 'run multiple accounts or just don't be there scrub' like the gankers 'but you have options' rhetoric actually comes out as.

To achieve this of course requires getting rid of the whole 'cargo ships must be weak and easy to kill' mentality and going back to the days of the Spanish main when cargo ships actually had heavy armour, large crews and lots of guns. And from there giving EVE Industrial ships equivalent PG/CPU & slots to their same size 'combat' counterparts. Just not the combat bonuses.


I think if you don't want your ship ganked, you should protect it. If you are solo, hire protection and pass the cost off to your customers. This is why it is already so expensive to ship outside of highsec. I am not asking for any changes to the ganking mechanics. I just don't think criminals should have sanctuary in highsec stations.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#25 - 2015-09-25 02:08:02 UTC
1. Ganking in the EVE sense is highsec only, anywhere else it's just PvP.
2. In Highsec you can't effectively protect against Ganking, the Gankers cries to the contrary.
3. Yes you are focusing on the stick to try and 'punish' gankers.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#26 - 2015-09-25 02:13:45 UTC
Ecrir Twy'Lar wrote:
If you want to PvP, you really should be moving out into lowsec , null and WH space.


No to each and every thing in your post for a lot of reasons, but especially this.

EVE Online is a PvP game first, last, and always. And that means that PvP belongs everywhere in EVE Online, including highsec. If you don't want to PvP, quit. You will not be missed.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Ecrir Twy'Lar
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-09-25 02:20:40 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
1. Ganking in the EVE sense is highsec only, anywhere else it's just PvP.
2. In Highsec you can't effectively protect against Ganking, the Gankers cries to the contrary.
3. Yes you are focusing on the stick to try and 'punish' gankers.


You are making me feel like I need to defend gankers now. LOL. But I really don't want to get into a debate over whether or not you can defend against ganking.

When I am hacking data and relic sites almost everyone in system wants to get me. Do they succeed? Yeah, sometimes. But if I am paying attention, they more than likely won't. If they do, i have to get back to where i can get another ship or I can get podded for a free ride back. I don't think this is an unreasonable situation and I don't think it would be much worse for gankers under my proposal.
Ecrir Twy'Lar
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2015-09-25 02:25:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Ecrir Twy'Lar
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ecrir Twy'Lar wrote:
If you want to PvP, you really should be moving out into lowsec , null and WH space.


No to each and every thing in your post for a lot of reasons, but especially this.

EVE Online is a PvP game first, last, and always. And that means that PvP belongs everywhere in EVE Online, including highsec. If you don't want to PvP, quit. You will not be missed.


Can you point out where I said I wanted some pvp removed? Maybe the wardec part... but my point was that most wardecs involve little actual pvp. Just station camping.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#29 - 2015-09-25 02:35:30 UTC
Ecrir Twy'Lar wrote:

Can you point out where I said I wanted some pvp removed?


Sure thing.


Quote:

Maybe the wardec part... but my point was that most wardecs involve little actual pvp. Just station camping.


That's PvP. PvP is defined solely as Player Vs Player. So whether you like it or not, it is PvP. You just want to try and define it otherwise to make the dishonest claim that you are not trying to remove PvP, which you very much are.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Iain Cariaba
#30 - 2015-09-25 03:16:34 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
1. Ganking in the EVE sense is highsec only, anywhere else it's just PvP.
2. In Highsec you can't effectively protect against Ganking, the Gankers cries to the contrary.
3. Yes you are focusing on the stick to try and 'punish' gankers.

1: As provided by definitions.net:
Gank (verb) - To kill, ambush, or defeat with little effort; used in online games.

So, when a fleet of ships hotdrops a ratter in null, or a roam drops in on some FW plexing frig and blaps it, those are examples of ganks. Ganking is not exclusive to highsec.

2: Four years I've had a freighter in highsec, never lost it. I've been a highsec mission runner off and on for my entire EvE career, never been ganked. It is quite easy to protect yourself from gankers, just ask them how and most of them will be happy to explain it to you. Hell, they even write guides and post them online, just google it. (Before you accuse me of it, I am not a ganker. I tried it and didn't find it to my liking.)

3. No comment.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#31 - 2015-09-25 03:52:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
Criminals should not be allowed to dock up. If you want to dock you should be in a system where you are not flagged as a criminal.

It's reasonable that if a player can spacewarp arcross a galaxy, concord can detect any and all violations within all of HS and LS then some minimum wage docking manager can see a red flashy thing on his dashboard and push the SCREW YOU SCUMBAG button to prevent a known criminal from docking in the station he is managing.

It's kind or rediculous that the docking manager can time and police agression not only outside his station, but anywere in eve (I can get a timer Hek hit a HS > HS wh and be prevented from docking in Motsu) right down to the second, but can't figure out that this clearly labelled bad guy is a bad guy.



Dearest CONCORD,

For the love of all that is fair and just, give docking managers a small raise and train them that flashy red is actually worse than flashy yellow and get this docking oversight fixed once and for all.

Suncerly,
Every reasonable pilot in eve
Black Pedro
Mine.
#32 - 2015-09-25 07:50:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Ecrir Twy'Lar wrote:
Wardec's should only be possible after some sort of trigger. Like maybe a pilot getting kill rights on a player from another corporation. Or maybe some theft that involves a pilot receiving suspect status after looting a can. When pilots can no longer get easy kills in Highsec, they will start looking for them in lowsec , null and WH space. This would provide more fights for everyone.
Let's start with wardecs. Wardecs are suppose to be there there to enable ship PvP in highsec. There is a clear progression intended in the game design:

Low risk -----------------------------------> High risk
Low reward <------------------------------ High reward

NPC Corps -> Player Corps -> Lowsec -> Nullsec

You, as a player get to choose how much risk you are willing to expose yourself in turn for increasing rewards. The risk increases as you move up the scale. Nullsec has no restrictions, while lowsec has lack of bubbles, gate guns and disincentives to pod people. Player corps come with the benefits of deploying structures and a few other perks over the NPC corp, but with the responsibility you will have to defend them from wardeccers. They allow limited combat in highsec, between a limited number of known opponents with 24h notice. More risk for more reward.

You are not forced to join a player corp. You are not forced to defend a player corp. It is your choice to do so, and it is always an option to leave a corporation. If you don't want to deal with warp disruption bubbles, you don't go to nullsec. If you don't want to deal with wardecs, then you do not join/form a players corp. It's as simple as that. You have to make a choice: this game is about tradeoffs.

As to you not liking station games, they are a product of how the game has been designed and are not a phenomenon just restricted to wardecs. Stations are central to fights in places where they are present because of their tactical importance. Perhaps the new docking/undocking mechanics of the new citadels will change this situation, but really removing/nerfing wardecs because you don't like station games is not a logical solution.

Now for ganking, you propose locking criminals out of highsec, removing the security tags, and scaling the bounty system. The third proposal is strange as bounties are not related to security status in any way. I can place a bounty of the 5.0 security status miner that is stealing "my" ore, or the positive status director that cleaned out my corp hanger. Bounties are a tool in the sandbox anyone can use against anyone else. Why should it be attached to security status which describes your relationship with CONCORD? Besides, the bounty payout at 20% is are already near the maximum payout possible without be exploitable due to insurance. There isn't much room to increase it.

Security tags were only added to the game a few years ago. All they enable is one player to trade the time to grind status to another for ISK. Expect more of these mechanics not less like something similar for faction standing. Such mechanics stimulate the economy, create professions and allow players to interact more efficiently. Besides, the only way to attack an NPC corp member in highsec is by suicide ganking. Why should someone who just wants to take out a rival miner say, be locked out of attacking them unless they are willing to grind something they don't want to do? CCP currently working to remove excess grinding. These systems allow players who like grinding "sell" that effort to others for ISK and is better for the game overall as everyone is doing what they find most fun.

And finally, the oft-proposed lock gankers out of highsec. This is just a straight up nerf to gankers. It will do little to stop ganking, just make it even more difficult for new gankers to get started. It would make an Orca/Bowhead alt near mandatory, something almost all professional gankers have but not new gankers starting out, and add a few minutes travel time in an empty pod for the ganker, for no gain in engaging gameplay. Trying to shoot/smartbomb an empty pod in the era of no clone costs will get tired very quickly for anti-gankers when they realize they are doing nothing.

More NPC enforced hoops aren't going to stop ganking, just make the game more tedious for them. Why should CCP do that if it doesn't make the game better in anyway? If they think ganking is "too easy" CCP will balance the EHP of the target ships so they are more costly to gank. If they want players to be safe highsec, they would just lock out offensive weapons in highsec. But just ramping up the tedium on gankers for engaging in what is intended gameplay is nonsensical.

CCP explicitly coded suicide ganking into the game. They have confirmed this many times. Criminals are suppose to exist as a profession to provide some risk in highsec. CCP is not going spend all the time coding in the ability for criminals to exist only to make it so boring/grindy/tedious that no players do it. You are intended to have to protect yourself from criminals in this game and have more than enough tools to do so. Learn how to do that and stop asking CCP to change the game in your favour because you cannot be bothered to.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2015-09-25 09:12:09 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Criminals should not be allowed to dock up. If you want to dock you should be in a system where you are not flagged as a criminal.

It's reasonable that if a player can spacewarp arcross a galaxy, concord can detect any and all violations within all of HS and LS then some minimum wage docking manager can see a red flashy thing on his dashboard and push the SCREW YOU SCUMBAG button to prevent a known criminal from docking in the station he is managing.

It's kind or rediculous that the docking manager can time and police agression not only outside his station, but anywere in eve (I can get a timer Hek hit a HS > HS wh and be prevented from docking in Motsu) right down to the second, but can't figure out that this clearly labelled bad guy is a bad guy.



Dearest CONCORD,

For the love of all that is fair and just, give docking managers a small raise and train them that flashy red is actually worse than flashy yellow and get this docking oversight fixed once and for all.

Suncerly,
Every reasonable pilot in eve


Actually I wouldn't mind criminals not being able to doc in NPC stations but allowed to dock in a POS. Then the gankers would need to be in a player corp, have assets in space and be vulnerable to wardecs. This would really give any industry corp a means by which to retaliate if they so wished.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#34 - 2015-09-25 09:17:46 UTC
Did you just try to say that null sec should be high reward because it's high risk?

Unless you live in npc null that's just crazy talk.

NPC corp >player corp > low sec > null sec

Let's call the first 2 apples and the second 2 oranges. Now let's all take as step back and try to find some logic in that progression. I just don't see anything logical.

I agree that his war dec idea is totally bad, but ffs, don't mix apples and oranges - you're just confusing my side of the arguement.


His ganking idea is pretty spot on. He's not locking gankers out of HS, he's just saying criminals shouldn't be allowed to dock where they are hunted criminals (see above letter to concord). It's pretty sound. It's both reasonable and logical. You can still conduct ganking ops where ever you like. You just can't dock if you're a criminal in that space. Take me - occaisionally I gank mission cream puffs. My sec status is high enough that I am not a criminal. So, once my criminal timer clears I can dock. If I go negative and become a full time criminal in a systems given sec status (-2 for 1.0 systems and so on down the line to -5 in 0.5 systems) then I have to go to progressively lower sec systems to dock. You can get up at 8:00 every morning and commute to HS and start your ganking job at 9:00 - most of the world already commutes to work - criminals working in HS should be no different. Again - NOT LOCKED OUT, just have to dock and log w/ the criminals if you are a criminal. It's really a no brainer. Don't distort what he's saying into something it's not and then argue about the myth you created. (thanks)

Repairing sec status - has to be available. If you can go down you can go up and vice versa. Has to work both ways.


Quiit yammering about it being TEDIOUS if you have to go 5 jumps to get to your ganking system. Look at the other side of the coin. Getting ganked is also TEDIOUS. You have to go re-ship and all that other stuff. I think it's fair play if you have to go a little out of your way considering your chosen profession is to force others to go out of their way (reship and repod and all that). It's ludicris to call 5 jumps tedious for you and not be able to aknowledge that ganking me is also tedious for me.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#35 - 2015-09-25 09:25:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Criminals should not be allowed to dock up. If you want to dock you should be in a system where you are not flagged as a criminal.

It's reasonable that if a player can spacewarp arcross a galaxy, concord can detect any and all violations within all of HS and LS then some minimum wage docking manager can see a red flashy thing on his dashboard and push the SCREW YOU SCUMBAG button to prevent a known criminal from docking in the station he is managing.

It's kind or rediculous that the docking manager can time and police agression not only outside his station, but anywere in eve (I can get a timer Hek hit a HS > HS wh and be prevented from docking in Motsu) right down to the second, but can't figure out that this clearly labelled bad guy is a bad guy.



Dearest CONCORD,

For the love of all that is fair and just, give docking managers a small raise and train them that flashy red is actually worse than flashy yellow and get this docking oversight fixed once and for all.

Suncerly,
Every reasonable pilot in eve


Actually I wouldn't mind criminals not being able to doc in NPC stations but allowed to dock in a POS. Then the gankers would need to be in a player corp, have assets in space and be vulnerable to wardecs. This would really give any industry corp a means by which to retaliate if they so wished.


See, this is a fair and balanced idea. On one hand you could argue that the starbase charters you use for HS pos could prevent criminals from entering the shields. That's plausable, but unreasonable. Now this proposal has real merit. If a criminal wants the luxury of docking in HS then he must provide an asset that could be counter attacked. This would give the criminal a choice - commute from low sex OR put an actual asset out in space that could be destroyed.

There is a lot of beauty in this simple idea. White knights would have something more than a t1 destroyer to go after. Actual pvp (the real kind where both sides show up to fight) might actually happen from time to time.

So the POS charters would only allow 'in corp' criminals docking rights. No name npc criminals would be out of luck. LOL this falls into the apples and oranges progression that pedro spoke of. Gankers would have to graduate from no risk npc corps to player corps with attackable assets in space.

What say you about this idea mighty risk vs reward pedro?


Edit:

low risk npc ganker ---------------------------------> dock in low sec (low reward)
high risk player corp ganker with pos ----------> dock where ever you put a tower (high reward)
Madd Adda
#36 - 2015-09-25 09:25:44 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:


Actually I wouldn't mind criminals not being able to doc in NPC stations but allowed to dock in a POS. Then the gankers would need to be in a player corp, have assets in space and be vulnerable to wardecs. This would really give any industry corp a means by which to retaliate if they so wished.

i second this.

Carebear extraordinaire

Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#37 - 2015-09-25 09:38:10 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Actually I wouldn't mind criminals not being able to doc in NPC stations but allowed to dock in a POS. Then the gankers would need to be in a player corp, have assets in space and be vulnerable to wardecs. This would really give any industry corp a means by which to retaliate if they so wished.


Works for me, not only does it seem reasonable but as a LowSec pirate I'd be more than happy to see the increase in targets......err.....traffic.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law

Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#38 - 2015-09-25 09:45:01 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

3. sec status should not be repairable at all, you made a choice deal with the consequences.


That would be fine but this game lasts for years and years and it would be a super bad game decision if something you did in 2004/2005 was un changeable years down the line.... People change what some one did a few years ago might not be there play stile now.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2015-09-25 09:59:05 UTC
Tappits wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

3. sec status should not be repairable at all, you made a choice deal with the consequences.


That would be fine but this game lasts for years and years and it would be a super bad game decision if something you did in 2004/2005 was un changeable years down the line.... People change what some one did a few years ago might not be there play stile now.


Besides there were many examples of pirates turning King's privateer, it should be no different in Eve (that and someone could buy a character on the bazaar and want to move up to hisec with it).
Caleb Seremshur
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#40 - 2015-09-25 10:31:31 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Tappits wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

3. sec status should not be repairable at all, you made a choice deal with the consequences.


That would be fine but this game lasts for years and years and it would be a super bad game decision if something you did in 2004/2005 was un changeable years down the line.... People change what some one did a few years ago might not be there play stile now.


Besides there were many examples of pirates turning King's privateer, it should be no different in Eve (that and someone could buy a character on the bazaar and want to move up to hisec with it).


If you can't dock in NPC stations in high as a red then definitely they need to keep tags in the game as that's a major reason to fly in lowsec AND the rats there aren't quite exactly push overs. The minimum investment to kill one isn't too high but still enough to make ganking a guy running for clones good money, and then getting the tag youself.