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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

First post
Author
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1721 - 2015-09-10 15:17:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Blah blah blah, TL:DR people still thing it takes a long time to be good.

Let us compare to any other MMO. Reasonable and average gamer play. I start. I select class. Four months later, I am top tier..... If I grind experience... Want to do some other class? Restart or respec.

Eve online. Two days training, and easily can have a fit that can assist the most veteran players. Three months, can be pretty well trained into a roll. Six months, you have found that role you like and are pretty specialized.

Problem is the players who all want to be top DPS capital ship pilots. And players who think somebody is np good if under 10m sp for some reason. Newbs are extra damage, support and ewar in cheap fits. Seems full win to me. On top, grind is only for shinies. I gain SP even if just sightseeing.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Jegrey Dozer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1722 - 2015-09-10 15:52:22 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
Blah blah blah, TL:DR people still thing it takes a long time to be good.

Let us compare to any other MMO. Reasonable and average gamer play. I start. I select class. Four months later, I am top tier..... If I grind experience... Want to do some other class? Restart or respec.

Eve online. Two days training, and easily can have a fit that can assist the most veteran players. Three months, can be pretty well trained into a roll. Six months, you have found that role you like and are pretty specialized.

Problem is the players who all want to be top DPS capital ship pilots. And players who think somebody is np good if under 10m sp for some reason. Newbs are extra damage, support and ewar in cheap fits. Seems full win to me. On top, grind is only for shinies. I gain SP even if just sightseeing.



Again, it's not about the reality of the skill training scheme. It's about the perception of that reality. If the player is not convinced they are capable of being good within a reasonable time frame and for a fair ($)cost, they are just going to quit.

It's as simple as that. We all know people have stupid impulses, I am just saying we use that stupidity in our favor.

Shorten the stick and dangle the carrot closer to their faces so they aren't as discouraged from playing and generating content for themselves and the rest of us.
Anslo
Scope Works
#1723 - 2015-09-10 16:13:44 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
Anslo wrote:
3-4 pages of forum warrioring since my initial post. All that energy coulda been used to make content in Eve. But not, let us complain about the lack of content and Eve dying instead, surely this is better!

Dweebs.


I make solo content in eve. More content in exploration PvE than in blueball PvP

It is better. Ccp hopefully sees ideas and discusses, eve=more fun.

Also, cannot be dweebs. This is far to entertaining. We be classic.... NEEEERRRRRDDDDD!


PvP. PvE. Whatever your style is man, just do that ****. Good on you.

Fat nerd.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1724 - 2015-09-10 16:19:38 UTC
Jegrey Dozer wrote:
Except the curve of the benefit vs time graph is quite linear for a good couple of years before it begins to flatten out. I am not saying that the skill system hasn't been set up for new players to be able to catch up, I am saying the rate of change needs to be greater within the linear portion of the benefit vs time graph.
Lol
It really isn't. It follows the overall design of the skill system pretty closely unless you do something bone-headed like going for lvl-V skills when there are still lvl-IV (or even lvl III) ones that serve a similar purpose.

It takes about two months to make a well-rounded single-cruiser pilot. It takes about four to make it a good one. It takes a year and a half to take it to all-V. In the time it takes to go from well-rounded to good, you can become well-rounded in an entirely different type of ship that beats the snot out of that “good cruiser” character. In the time it takes to go from good to perfect, you can become good in three or four ships that will turn that “perfect” cruiser into a smear.

This pattern repeats itself for, oh, pretty much everything. The benefits you earn at an early stage are huge and quick compared to the ones you get later. There are a few standard break points where this doesn't always hold true — once you open up a T2 specialisation skill, you're back at the “early on” stage for that particular skill, for instance. The only way for it to be linear is you train everything without any regard for synergy between bonuses and abilities, in which case all that has happened is that you evolve as slowly in the beginning as you do at the end. The trick is to not do that.

Quote:
This is hardly controversial. CCP has already reduced training times.
They really haven't. They've just made it more transparent on what you get for your time and how to get there.

Quote:
I agree that it is a knowledge problem. However, I believe you solve the problem by manipulating player behavior in your favor by changing the game mechanic. Like it has already been done before.
…but changing the game mechanics does nothing. It doesn't solve the problem. It doesn't even address the problem. It does something completely unrelated, which leaves the problem in place and causes the exact same behaviour to repeat itself. Worse, it overly benefits old and knowledgeable players, not the new ones who have the misapprehension that they can't (or have to) “catch up”.

Quote:
We have a way of testing this theory. By looking into the past and seeing if there was any noticeable change in retention rate when skill training time was reduced.
There wasn't. The only major change to training times was the removal of the learning skills, which happened a few months before the game started to lose players activity (and players) en masse (also, coincidentally, the removal of learning skills actually reduced the maximum possible training speed). There was a minor change with the tiercide skill reshuffling, but as mentioned, it didn't actually reduce training times so much as make the pay-off more logical and clear.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1725 - 2015-09-10 16:57:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Jegrey Dozer wrote:


Again, it's not about the reality of the skill training scheme. It's about the perception of that reality. If the player is not convinced they are capable of being good within a reasonable time frame and for a fair ($)cost, they are just going to quit.

It's as simple as that. We all know people have stupid impulses, I am just saying we use that stupidity in our favor.

Shorten the stick and dangle the carrot closer to their faces so they aren't as discouraged from playing and generating content for themselves and the rest of us.


That is what shiny gear is for. Titans should be that elite stuff people farm years to get and maybe actually do... Legendary grade.

It is just that matter of perception. It isnt the sp, but the gameplay devaluing. For better combat, we make lower sp fits more important. That in turn changes how people perceive.
Anslo wrote:


PvP. PvE. Whatever your style is man, just do that ****. Good on you.

Fat nerd.


Actually, am a quite fit and active nerd. Thank you for your concern. Have a nerd smily, just for you.

^u^

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Jegrey Dozer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1726 - 2015-09-10 16:59:40 UTC
Tippia wrote:

It really isn't. It follows the overall design of the skill system pretty closely unless you do something bone-headed like going for lvl-V skills when there are still lvl-IV (or even lvl III) ones that serve a similar purpose.


My argument is under using the assumption that new players are not you and me who know lvl IV - lvl V isn't a necessity. That's why I keep repeating that new players come into the game with preconceived notions about what it means to be good enough for "end game." I believe the failure of retention is based on the frustration new players experience when they learn that being perfect in something like mining will take you years and hundreds of dollars. However, being effective takes hardly any time at all.

I don't think there's a huge disagreement here. I am just stating a belief of mine that new players fail at understanding the fact that being perfect in something isn't a requirement for being good at it.

Quote:
They really haven't. They've just made it more transparent on what you get for your time and how to get there.

They haven't? I was under the impression that they have. I recall a conversation some corpmates were having about how the training time for Battleship V used to be several months and now it's just ~1 month. Even another guy commented to me telling me that they have already reduced training time a few posts ago. Up until now, you are the first person to tell me that training times have not been reduced.

Quote:
…but changing the game mechanics does nothing. It doesn't solve the problem. It doesn't even address the problem. It does something completely unrelated, which leaves the problem in place and causes the exact same behaviour to repeat itself. Worse, it overly benefits old and knowledgeable players, not the new ones who have the misapprehension that they can't (or have to) “catch up”.


This is why I brought up previous training time reductions. If up until now we are lead to believe that EvE has only been growing and just recently subs have been dropping. That means we have some evidence that reducing training times at worst didn't effect sub numbers and at best helped increase them.

Quote:
There wasn't. The only major change to training times was the removal of the learning skills, which happened a few months before the game started to lose players activity (and players) en masse (also, coincidentally, the removal of learning skills actually reduced the maximum possible training speed). There was a minor change with the tiercide skill reshuffling, but as mentioned, it didn't actually reduce training times so much as make the pay-off more logical and clear.


If there really wasn't any reduction, then my proposal is the same opinion piece, but without concrete evidence.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1727 - 2015-09-10 17:03:34 UTC
Looks pretty steady to me. Hovering at typically depressed summer numbers. It's no surprise numbers have been dropping, especially over this year. But I think the drop in concurrent online user numbers has bottomed out. Time for a newbro promotion methinks.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Anslo
Scope Works
#1728 - 2015-09-10 17:09:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Anslo
Markus Reese wrote:


Actually, am a quite fit and active nerd. Thank you for your concern. Have a nerd smily, just for you.

^u^


Fit fat nerd.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Jegrey Dozer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1729 - 2015-09-10 17:17:15 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:


That is what shiny gear is for. Titans should be that elite stuff people farm years to get and maybe actually do... Legendary grade.

It is just that matter of perception. It isnt the sp, but the gameplay devaluing. For better combat, we make lower sp fits more important. That in turn changes how people perceive...


[quote=Anslo]PvP. PvE. Whatever your style is man, just do that ****. Good on you.



I believe that SP really doesn't do anything except give us a reason to anticipate character progression in order to build intrinsic value for our characters. It indirectly fosters more in game activity by making us patient, but it's a detriment if it takes too long.

I believe ISK is king in substituting for SP's lack of importance. It determines how any of us evaluate how risky we want to play. That's why faster training time means nothing if you're talking about Titans. If you gave the vast majority of EvE players all Titan skills necessary to be perfect, how many people will actually be able to afford them assuming we go by the "don't risk what you cant replace" motto?

The point I am trying to make is that SP is either an indirect and small boost to content generation/player retention or just negative. It needs to be managed scrupulously in order to make sure it's not hurting the game. Subsequently, we should be more confident that ISK and the market has the ability to regulate the game better than SP can ever hope.
Jegrey Dozer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1730 - 2015-09-10 17:22:57 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Looks pretty steady to me. Hovering at typically depressed summer numbers. It's no surprise numbers have been dropping, especially over this year. But I think the drop in concurrent online user numbers has bottomed out. Time for a newbro promotion methinks.


More ads would be good. I agree.
Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1731 - 2015-09-10 17:27:18 UTC
Jegrey Dozer wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
Blah blah blah, TL:DR people still thing it takes a long time to be good.

Let us compare to any other MMO. Reasonable and average gamer play. I start. I select class. Four months later, I am top tier..... If I grind experience... Want to do some other class? Restart or respec.

Eve online. Two days training, and easily can have a fit that can assist the most veteran players. Three months, can be pretty well trained into a roll. Six months, you have found that role you like and are pretty specialized.

Problem is the players who all want to be top DPS capital ship pilots. And players who think somebody is np good if under 10m sp for some reason. Newbs are extra damage, support and ewar in cheap fits. Seems full win to me. On top, grind is only for shinies. I gain SP even if just sightseeing.



Again, it's not about the reality of the skill training scheme. It's about the perception of that reality. If the player is not convinced they are capable of being good within a reasonable time frame and for a fair ($)cost, they are just going to quit.

It's as simple as that. We all know people have stupid impulses, I am just saying we use that stupidity in our favor.

Shorten the stick and dangle the carrot closer to their faces so they aren't as discouraged from playing and generating content for themselves and the rest of us.


Why change the game when changing the perception is just as easy?

1. Get 3-4 videos out about the cool things one can do within a week of joining eve.
2. Seed the rookie help channel with CCP employees with a here's how you can do cool stuff straight away scripts.
3. Make ingame connections between groups who are new player focused: karma, legion, brave, uni, and said new players.
4. Monitor said new players avtivity levels and satisfaction with the game.
Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1732 - 2015-09-10 17:31:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Odie McCracken
I remember back when "Eve TV" was a thing, they had a few noobs join Eve who had never played and documented their experiences.

Would be cool to do something similar today. I think that putting something into an easy to digest video format on Youtube might be a good thing to help bring in more people.

They could document the whole character creation process, starting skills, etc.
Jegrey Dozer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1733 - 2015-09-10 17:39:52 UTC
Cancel Align NOW wrote:


Why change the game when changing the perception is just as easy?

1. Get 3-4 videos out about the cool things one can do within a week of joining eve.
2. Seed the rookie help channel with CCP employees with a here's how you can do cool stuff straight away scripts.
3. Make ingame connections between groups who are new player focused: karma, legion, brave, uni, and said new players.
4. Monitor said new players avtivity levels and satisfaction with the game.


Valid suggestion. I would be OK with changing the way skills are introduced. Like lvl IV being introduced as the new max. And lvl V visibly being seen as an extra skill level for higher, but not necessary proficiency. That way people are not as prone to see lvl V as a must.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1734 - 2015-09-10 18:16:36 UTC
Not that I care about starting SP because I am not making any more alts any time soon and I already trained everything I wanted to on my other accounts...

But what about the fact that CCP changed the skills for many ships making it harder to spec them? Battlecruisers, Destroyers, Command Ships?

I mean hell, I have characters who can fly everything in the entire game, and quite well I might add, but I don't have a single pre-req for the Command Ships or several other items because CCP added leadership skills and other crap to the pre-req.

It is nice to be grandfathered, and it is nice to spout off crap about grinding vertical vrs time based horizontal... but the crux of the problem with Eve is no matter how hard you work, there is nothing gained Skill wise for your efforts.

For a bunch of people who love, and I mean LOVE the effort/reward and risk/reward ratio argument, they sure are big hypocrites when it comes to Effort/SP and Risk/SP.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1735 - 2015-09-10 18:25:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Jegrey Dozer wrote:
point I am trying to make is that SP is either an indirect and small boost to content generation/player retention or just negative. It needs to be managed scrupulously in order to make sure it's not hurting the game. Subsequently, we should be more confident that ISK and the market has the ability to regulate the game better than SP can ever hope.


That is why I am of similar point as well. I am more along the line that the best way to do so is kinda/sorta what they have been doing, although lacking in doing well. Increase the value of new players. If SP usage on the field related to pieces of a strategy board game, right now most combat plays like checkers, but what we really need is to get it like chess.

Not to be derogatory, but it is what it is. New players are the pawns. But need lots of pawns for a good fight. More versatility and variability in equipment, ships, etc will allow enough stuff to statisfy most players as they earn LP by making SP only a part of the game play instead of a minimum. In majority of games, we have that same balance of power where the highest SP is the fewest. Combat should reflect that where it all starts with small.

So any combat is ideally suited to frigates. Then toss in some dessies.

Too many small hulls, need high damage, but vulnerable medium hulls. Need friggies to take down mediums, friggies to defend mediums, and mediums to take down friggies. Tweak equipment to make ships more specialized in how they deal damage and as such, have to have a versatile fleet composition else a few can take out many.

Repeat for medium to large hulls, large to capitals.

Suddenly, if somebody is fielding capitals, they want to find the best of the rookies for the roles so that their higher SP players can field the more critical, but vulnerable larger hulls.

Instead, everybody show up in your ____ hull fit. Press F1.

Market McSelling Alt wrote:

But what about the fact that CCP changed the skills for many ships making it harder to spec them? Battlecruisers, Destroyers, Command Ships?

is nice to be grandfathered, and it is nice to spout off crap about grinding vertical vrs time based horizontal... but the crux of the problem with Eve is no matter how hard you work, there is nothing gained Skill wise for your efforts.

For a bunch of people who love, and I mean LOVE the effort/reward and risk/reward ratio argument, they sure are big hypocrites when it comes to Effort/SP and Risk/SP.


Wish to talk grind? New training>old training unless you want to fly all four command ships. Yeah, being a universal spec like myself for commands is nice to be grandfathered.

I loved having to train T2 cruiser... four times, AND T2 battlecruisers AND train for Logistics AND train for HAS and and and.... No. Getting into a command ship is much more fitting now for entry as it assumes most groups will have a general skill focus. What point is there in training shield bonus info link command ships if your fleet flies and spec trains amarr on combat side? If I remember, training three of the command ships up equals training all four now or something similar. With all four not being a whole lot more.

Who cares if leadership is in the mix as well. Need to really train that anyways if you want to make use of it.

Horizontal grind, most people wouldn't notice. Vertical climbs tire people out.

Let me tell you about my first two years which involved Learning skills to V, All command ships to V and Leaderships to V. Full combat support to fly them in fleets only to be negated cause now peeps can easy farm isk for plex and every player and their hamster having a Commship spec alt that just hops around off grid.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1736 - 2015-09-10 18:33:17 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
Jegrey Dozer wrote:
point I am trying to make is that SP is either an indirect and small boost to content generation/player retention or just negative. It needs to be managed scrupulously in order to make sure it's not hurting the game. Subsequently, we should be more confident that ISK and the market has the ability to regulate the game better than SP can ever hope.


That is why I am of similar point as well. I am more along the line that the best way to do so is kinda/sorta what they have been doing, although lacking in doing well. Increase the value of new players. If SP usage on the field related to pieces of a strategy board game, right now most combat plays like checkers, but what we really need is to get it like chess.

Not to be derogatory, but it is what it is. New players are the pawns. But need lots of pawns for a good fight. More versatility and variability in equipment, ships, etc will allow enough stuff to statisfy most players as they earn LP by making SP only a part of the game play instead of a minimum. In majority of games, we have that same balance of power where the highest SP is the fewest. Combat should reflect that where it all starts with small.

So any combat is ideally suited to frigates. Then toss in some dessies.

Too many small hulls, need high damage, but vulnerable medium hulls. Need friggies to take down mediums, friggies to defend mediums, and mediums to take down friggies. Tweak equipment to make ships more specialized in how they deal damage and as such, have to have a versatile fleet composition else a few can take out many.

Repeat for medium to large hulls, large to capitals.

Suddenly, if somebody is fielding capitals, they want to find the best of the rookies for the roles so that their higher SP players can field the more critical, but vulnerable larger hulls.

Instead, everybody show up in your ____ hull fit. Press F1.



How incredibly arrogant to think that everyone who is playing this game with less than x number of years would be willing to be the "pawn" or "Fodder" for anyone?

That is the problem with vets, you think its "Your" game and "Your" fight and everyone is just lucky to be a part of it.

Hint: It might be why they don't stay, they are treated as second class citizens.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1737 - 2015-09-10 18:40:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Hint: It might be why they don't stay, they are treated as second class citizens.


You take it as arrogant, I take it as truth as a person who actually understands chess and the importance of a pawn. In chess, a pawn and careful usage of them is extremely vital. They cannot do much. Just move up short steps, only forward. Combat is limited to a forwards sidestep slice. But they hold the line and keep the enemy at bay.

That is what it is. The new players can fill a simple, and low cost, expendable role, but they are absolutely vital to holding the front. Us veterans should be just giving them piles of ships.

This is how I used to teach counter PvP to industry corporations to counter Highsec wars.

I gave em skills, less than 24 hours training required and ships with fittings. I taught them how to set up overview to prevent losing pods. I then said get out there and do this so us veterans can take out the war dec targets. They will die, but we got the ships covered. Result is we never lost a highsec war back in the day cause I had my newbs. They loved it, I loved it.

My first week in the game, I was in an ecm tackle griffin. I got popped, I didn't care cause I held up a target long enough for corpies to gain control. That win was mine. I didn't do most damage, I didn't get final blow, but wouldn't have died if not for that little griffin.

I never said fodder. I said a pawn. Key to holding the front.

Edit: And remember reason I used it. Chess and Checkers are played on the same field. Eve currently plays like checkers. Everybody is the same. Fights the same, moves the same. One guy can be king and then just steals the whole show. Cannot do anything about it.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Sugar Smacks
Khanid Royal Navy
Khanid.
#1738 - 2015-09-10 18:50:31 UTC
CCP acknowledges most of their playerbase is solo highsec mission runners or whatever.

So where is the added content for these people?

There is none because the majority of devs don't want their playerbase doing this, so they constantly add content outside this area of entertainment and give it to the minor playerbase doing things they find appropriate.

This is actually what will cause the demise of this game, out of touch devs not doing the most obvious job of giving the paying customer more. Instead its focused on the minority they think "plays the game the way they like it".

Its particularly sickening to watch this many stupid computer programmers ruin such a good game.

Who put this guy in charge? Knows his community then doesn't do anything for them?
Who would believe that's a good career decision?

Its almost like they gave up so they can make people think they are "hard", im sure your hard guy living in Iceland.

Reality is less people for obvious reasons, which will lead to your unemployment at a time you will not want to be unemployed.
But maybe you should be, when you ignore your job, you don't deserve one.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1739 - 2015-09-10 18:57:54 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Hint: It might be why they don't stay, they are treated as second class citizens.


You take it as arrogant, I take it as truth as a person who actually understands chess and the importance of a pawn. In chess, a pawn and careful usage of them is extremely vital. They cannot do much. Just move up short steps, only forward. Combat is limited to a forwards sidestep slice. But they hold the line and keep the enemy at bay.

That is what it is. The new players can fill a simple, and low cost, expendable role, but they are absolutely vital to holding the front. Us veterans should be just giving them piles of ships.

This is how I used to teach counter PvP to industry corporations to counter Highsec wars.

I gave em skills, less than 24 hours training required and ships with fittings. I taught them how to set up overview to prevent losing pods. I then said get out there and do this so us veterans can take out the war dec targets. They will die, but we got the ships covered. Result is we never lost a highsec war back in the day cause I had my newbs. They loved it, I loved it.

My first week in the game, I was in an ecm tackle griffin. I got popped, I didn't care cause I held up a target long enough for corpies to gain control. That win was mine. I didn't do most damage, I didn't get final blow, but wouldn't have died if not for that little griffin.

I never said fodder. I said a pawn. Key to holding the front.

Edit: And remember reason I used it. Chess and Checkers are played on the same field. Eve currently plays like checkers. Everybody is the same. Fights the same, moves the same. One guy can be king and then just steals the whole show. Cannot do anything about it.


Yeah, I play chess too. With inanimate objects.

The arrogance here is you think the game, game board and the pieces are all yours.

Again, some people won't sign up if they are told they can only ever be pawns. Some won't stay if they realize they are only ever being used as pawns, and in the end:

You don't get to be the Omnipotent one deciding who does what and where. Again, a very arrogant vet mentality.

You want truth? You can't handle the truth.

And you certainly didn't find it and put it in your post.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1740 - 2015-09-10 19:00:13 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Hint: It might be why they don't stay, they are treated as second class citizens.


You take it as arrogant, I take it as truth as a person who actually understands chess and the importance of a pawn. In chess, a pawn and careful usage of them is extremely vital. They cannot do much. Just move up short steps, only forward. Combat is limited to a forwards sidestep slice. But they hold the line and keep the enemy at bay.

That is what it is. The new players can fill a simple, and low cost, expendable role, but they are absolutely vital to holding the front. Us veterans should be just giving them piles of ships.

This is how I used to teach counter PvP to industry corporations to counter Highsec wars.

I gave em skills, less than 24 hours training required and ships with fittings. I taught them how to set up overview to prevent losing pods. I then said get out there and do this so us veterans can take out the war dec targets. They will die, but we got the ships covered. Result is we never lost a highsec war back in the day cause I had my newbs. They loved it, I loved it.

My first week in the game, I was in an ecm tackle griffin. I got popped, I didn't care cause I held up a target long enough for corpies to gain control. That win was mine. I didn't do most damage, I didn't get final blow, but wouldn't have died if not for that little griffin.

I never said fodder. I said a pawn. Key to holding the front.

Edit: And remember reason I used it. Chess and Checkers are played on the same field. Eve currently plays like checkers. Everybody is the same. Fights the same, moves the same. One guy can be king and then just steals the whole show. Cannot do anything about it.


Yeah, I play chess too. With inanimate objects.

The arrogance here is you think the game, game board and the pieces are all yours.

Again, some people won't sign up if they are told they can only ever be pawns. Some won't stay if they realize they are only ever being used as pawns, and in the end:

You don't get to be the Omnipotent one deciding who does what and where. Again, a very arrogant vet mentality.

You want truth? You can't handle the truth.

And you certainly didn't find it and put it in your post.



The Urine to Cherrios ratio of the above post has exceeded standard cereal bowl tolerance.