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Mobile Manufacturing - Ostia, Vulcan and Hephaestus

Author
SandKid
Sunset Logistics Company
#21 - 2012-01-03 01:40:06 UTC
Garteth wrote:
Kitesha wrote:
Well it would nice to have a way to replace the ships we lose on our 'adventures'...especially to support the alts in wars.

Loving this for w-space though. Definitely.


Wait...are we going to w-space boss man? Because I'm allergic to wormholes. You DO remember the last time we went into a wormhole with my hulk, right? Or did the glare from the explosion do a MIB and erase your memory?Evil

Cool idea either way - but I thought you were going to make a new miner ship instead?


No we're not going to w-space, stay on topic! I didn't make the miner ship because CCP hinted they are already working on mining fixes, so I'd rather put my efforts on something new that I could have an effect on.

Quote:
Well it would nice to have a way to replace the ships we lose on our 'adventures'...especially to support the alts in wars.

Loving this for w-space though. Definitely.


This is very true - I had a past war in mind when I started coming up with the idea. And agreed, w-space will really see a lot out of these ships. Just wish I had thought out the reprocessing bit and included it in the original presentation. I linked it at least.
Kasulli
Gateway Mining Division
#22 - 2012-01-03 01:43:37 UTC
Doesn't rorqual reprocess already?
ShipToaster
#23 - 2012-01-03 01:44:54 UTC
Some questions. I am not a manufacturer and apologise if they are things I should know.

Blueprints? Kept in ships? Risk level too high?

Ability to cloak? Things stop if cloaked?

Can only pilot manufacture? Are lanes available to all?

Does jumping, warping, or moving terminate activity or pause it?

Can stuff be deployed and fitted in space using these ships?

.

Lakuma
SAND Corp
#24 - 2012-01-03 01:46:20 UTC
Kasulli wrote:
Doesn't rorqual reprocess already?


No Kasulli, the Industrial Core only compresses ore and ice. Means the ship can make it really easy to transport, either for sale at markets or usually so the ore takes up less space at POS while it gets reprocessed.

To OP - would the mobile reprocessing ships be able to reprocess modules, drone compounds, ammo...etc? Or even compressed ore, thinking about Kasulli's question? What are the limitations, if any?
Lakuma
SAND Corp
#25 - 2012-01-03 01:47:00 UTC
ShipToaster wrote:
Some questions. I am not a manufacturer and apologise if they are things I should know.

Blueprints? Kept in ships? Risk level too high?

Ability to cloak? Things stop if cloaked?

Can only pilot manufacture? Are lanes available to all?

Does jumping, warping, or moving terminate activity or pause it?

Can stuff be deployed and fitted in space using these ships?


What this guy said too!Pirate
SandKid
Sunset Logistics Company
#26 - 2012-01-03 01:57:11 UTC
ShipToaster wrote:
Some questions. I am not a manufacturer and apologise if they are things I should know.

Blueprints? Kept in ships? Risk level too high?

Ability to cloak? Things stop if cloaked?

Can only pilot manufacture? Are lanes available to all?

Does jumping, warping, or moving terminate activity or pause it?

Can stuff be deployed and fitted in space using these ships?


Great questions Toaster...lemme see what I can think up...

BLUEPRINTS

Because of how manufacturing works, yes the blueprints stay on the ship. So expensive BPO's will likely not be the way to go, except for nomads who might have no choice but to carry these - or large quantities of copies to cover them until they do eventually dock.

CLOAKING

Pending it has the CPU and highslot, yes. While cloaked processes can't be started - but I would think they could manufacture while cloaked once started. My idea on this is that the ships behave like lanes - they don't take up capacitor or anything of that sort, and can manufacture while docked in a station even (though that's kind of silly unless the station had no lanes - again, citing the trade side). The one example of cloaking not working is with the cores - these are active modules and thus prevent cloaking.

MOVEMENT

This in no way affects manufacturing on the lane - as said for cloaking, the process is like a station in that it does not affect the ship in any way (unless consuming fuel). Because cores are active modules, this is the one example movement is not possible and docked in station would not work, since you cannot use the modules.

FITTING AND DEPLOYMENT

Because of the ship maintenance array (or Vulcan and Hephaestus), yes manufactured ships (or those in space with access), could be fitted. They must first be assembled and launched and controlled by a player though. One potential problem here is assembling ships in space - I don't actually know if that is possible right now. Can someone answer for me?


Keep the feedback and questions coming! Bear in mind on the fitting questions, you may recall the war-fix surrounding Orcas being immune to fitting an aggressed ship. I don't remember if this was fixed. Can someone confirm that as well? Regardless, whatever the existing mechanic is for the Orca and Rorqual, so would be the same here.
SandKid
Sunset Logistics Company
#27 - 2012-01-03 02:00:28 UTC  |  Edited by: SandKid
Lakuma wrote:
Kasulli wrote:
Doesn't rorqual reprocess already?


No Kasulli, the Industrial Core only compresses ore and ice. Means the ship can make it really easy to transport, either for sale at markets or usually so the ore takes up less space at POS while it gets reprocessed.

To OP - would the mobile reprocessing ships be able to reprocess modules, drone compounds, ammo...etc? Or even compressed ore, thinking about Kasulli's question? What are the limitations, if any?


Thanks for asking Kasulli amd Lakuma! Like Lakuma said, rorquals only compress.

Yes, pending the ship can fit those items into its hold to reprocess. This is necessary really, especially for exploration corporations or anyone who would want to roam in drone regions. Not being able to process modules and compounds would be a serious problem - this also allows a nomadic corporation to forego having miners on hand if they, instead, locate materials via combat.

PvE - Rogue Drones, Sleepers, Pirates...
PvP - Enemy wrecks drop modules which could be processed to help manufacture something you actually need. Again, I can see pirates actually doing a lot with these ships to supplement their playstyle of 'self-preservation', getting rid of the mission alt entirely if they so chose.
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-01-03 03:23:27 UTC
As far as reprocessing goes, why not just make an alternate Industrial Core for the Rorqual instead of coming out with a whole new line of ships. It makes sense since the Rorqual already compresses the ore, why not refine it as well.

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-

tankus2
HeartVenom Inc.
#29 - 2012-01-03 04:23:32 UTC
Gerrick Palivorn wrote:
As far as reprocessing goes, why not just make an alternate Industrial Core for the Rorqual instead of coming out with a whole new line of ships. It makes sense since the Rorqual already compresses the ore, why not refine it as well.


Simply put: it would make having a compression industrial core seem daft. Why squeeze something into a small space if you are just going to refine it anyway?

As for the topic, I agree with it, though it does step on the toes of my mothership idea :(

Where the science gets done

Anshiliu
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-01-03 04:29:30 UTC
Gerrick Palivorn wrote:
As far as reprocessing goes, why not just make an alternate Industrial Core for the Rorqual instead of coming out with a whole new line of ships. It makes sense since the Rorqual already compresses the ore, why not refine it as well.


I would hope that nothing would be added to the Rorqual which would bar people who don't have the massive amount of skills and isk from being involved.

I like the OP's idea, but adding to already established ships that only a few can fly in my opinion takes away from encouraging newer people from taking up the profession and what I perceive to be the whole point of his post.

Green Beans
R and J Inc.
#31 - 2012-01-03 05:00:07 UTC
I would love to see this. It would drastically change New Eden, for the better.

This line for rent! YOUR AD HERE!

beor oranes
Annihilate.
Strictly Unprofessional
#32 - 2012-01-03 05:26:51 UTC
Green Beans wrote:
I would love to see this. It would drastically change New Eden, for the better.


I really don't think it would change Eve as a whole at all. Maybe change the way WH dwellers operate to some extent but not high/low/null for the simple reason if its not as efficient/profitable to do it in space then people wont. Good example of this is the refining arrays for POS's, they are very rarely used because its more profitable to compress and haul to station or jump to highsec.

It would make it interesting for sure and would add some great depth but overall it would have very little affect on the majority of the players.

Industrial Ships if you have noticed have loads of CPU, this was because originally were going to have some capability to refine or produce items then at the last minute CCP decided not too and never changed the CPU.
SandKid
Sunset Logistics Company
#33 - 2012-01-03 05:35:43 UTC
beor oranes wrote:
Green Beans wrote:
I would love to see this. It would drastically change New Eden, for the better.


I really don't think it would change Eve as a whole at all. Maybe change the way WH dwellers operate to some extent but not high/low/null for the simple reason if its not as efficient/profitable to do it in space then people wont. Good example of this is the refining arrays for POS's, they are very rarely used because its more profitable to compress and haul to station or jump to highsec.

It would make it interesting for sure and would add some great depth but overall it would have very little affect on the majority of the players.

Industrial Ships if you have noticed have loads of CPU, this was because originally were going to have some capability to refine or produce items then at the last minute CCP decided not too and never changed the CPU.


That last bit I did not know Beor, good to know! You are right in that not many players will actually use these ships - after all most of us want to shoot something and, hands down, the majority of our ships are designed to do just that.

These ships will not change EVE as a whole, they provide opportunities at all levels of EVE.

Your point on efficiency is a very true one, after all is this not why dreadnaughts aren't used at the moment? These ships enable a gameplay style, and but as I said they're not meant to replace POS. These ships will best benefit a smaller corporation unable (or unwilling) to construct a POS in nullsec/lowsec/wh. Instead it allows them to take part in these regions in a nomadic way. My own corporation is a good example of one that would maybe live in W-Space, but wouldn't want to fiddle with the logistics of a POS.

HOWEVER - make no mistake, this is not an 'easy' solution to w-space in that instance. These ships are effectively an in-between step from raiding w-space (as many players do now) and living in w-space via POS.

Relative to nullsec - this is indeed a problem, POS refining and manufacturing almost being so poor most people still use station lanes. If this is indeed the case (I won't profess having intense knowledge of nullsec, which is why I want feedback like yours!) then these ships could very well be balanced in a way that does make them a viable option over POS manufacturing. This, however, is a sticky topic and I'm unsure of balancing that. It's well know CCP is looking at POS mechanics, so I'm going to leave that issue untouched if that's ok.

Keep up the feedback, thanks for your opinion Beor!
Monty Kvaran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-01-03 05:37:01 UTC
No way should you be able to manufacture while cloaked. It would totally eliminate the risk needed to balance this. It costs a lot to keep a POS running to manufacture and serve as a base of operation, POS are a big investment, and really easy to find for anyone interested in messing with it. If your going to allow manufacturing in places like wormholes, at prices comparable to highsec, the ships need to be uncloaked and susceptible to attack while manufacturing.

Personally, I think you should be required to run 5 minute cycles on your industrial core, during which time your stationary, uncloaked, and a sitting duck. When cycles are not running, all manufacturing should be paused.
SandKid
Sunset Logistics Company
#35 - 2012-01-03 05:43:24 UTC  |  Edited by: SandKid
Monty Kvaran wrote:
No way should you be able to manufacture while cloaked. It would totally eliminate the risk needed to balance this. It costs a lot to keep a POS running to manufacture and serve as a base of operation, POS are a big investment, and really easy to find for anyone interested in messing with it. If your going to allow manufacturing in places like wormholes, at prices comparable to highsec, the ships need to be uncloaked and susceptible to attack while manufacturing.

Personally, I think you should be required to run 5 minute cycles on your industrial core, during which time your stationary, uncloaked, and a sitting duck. When cycles are not running, all manufacturing should be paused.


You present a good argument Monty, but my concern is this:

If you require the ships to be uncloaked (and presumably undocked too in cases where stations are around), then what does a player do about a manufacturing job hours long? Should the lane be able to work if the ship goes offline (as in the player logs out?) or are you suggesting this be restricted to very short cycle - which makes the largest ship nearly useless.

I don't have qualms with the ship cloaking as it manufactures but starting jobs requires decloak, like any other functions. And in agreement, usage of the cores absolutely requires no cloaking as it is an active module.

You've brought up a really important concern, keep discussing it. A cloaked manufacturing ship is indeed a concern for balance. We agree on cores (which make the ship immovable) not allowing cloaks, but what about standard manufacturing at the reduced rates?

Actually - since we're now getting into nitty gritty details on balance like Monty's point, we could really use a CCP'er opinion to guide this part. Thanks!
Monty Kvaran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-01-03 05:51:28 UTC
If your docked at a station, you should just use the station manufacturing capability.

As for requiring a decloak to start manufacturing, but allowing it to run while cloaked/logged out, there is almost no risk there. Decloak in safe spot, start job while aligning, warp to new safe spot, cloak... your uncloaked for basically the time it takes to align and warp, and then you can manufacture for as long as you have materials for? You need to be shootable the whole time imo. What you can do safely outside of a station should be very limited.

To clarify, I think and industrial core should be active for all manufacturing.
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-01-03 05:56:50 UTC
tankus2 wrote:
Gerrick Palivorn wrote:
As far as reprocessing goes, why not just make an alternate Industrial Core for the Rorqual instead of coming out with a whole new line of ships. It makes sense since the Rorqual already compresses the ore, why not refine it as well.


Simply put: it would make having a compression industrial core seem daft. Why squeeze something into a small space if you are just going to refine it anyway?

As for the topic, I agree with it, though it does step on the toes of my mothership idea :(


If the minerals come out at a higher waste and it takes fuel, then compressing and shiping to be refined will still be a cheaper, better option for you, but it makes no sense to increase the amounts of ships by so many. Modify the ones we have and make the waste high enough that people will have to consider whether or not to export to a station to refine.

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-

SandKid
Sunset Logistics Company
#38 - 2012-01-03 06:00:35 UTC
Monty Kvaran wrote:
If your docked at a station, you should just use the station manufacturing capability.

As for requiring a decloak to start manufacturing, but allowing it to run while cloaked/logged out, there is almost no risk there. Decloak in safe spot, start job while aligning, warp to new safe spot, cloak... your uncloaked for basically the time it takes to align and warp, and then you can manufacture for as long as you have materials for? You need to be shootable the whole time imo. What you can do safely outside of a station should be very limited.

To clarify, I think and industrial core should be active for all manufacturing.


That's reasonable enough Monty - but what do we do about manufacturing jobs that take a long time? Building a cruiser, or larger, isn't something done quickly. What's your opinion on that? We can't expect players to sit in these ships and watch them carefully for hours on end waiting on a job to complete.

Solution A: Cores required on the large ships, they produce faster than stations so as to alleviate this problem but the fuel cost makes it not cost-efficicent. Therefore, the ships are used for demand situations, or producing smaller goods in bulk with no fuel cost.

Solution B: The ships have two modes of manufacturing? Ship production requires stand-still manufacturing at an accelerated rate, but vulnerable none the less. Normal production can be done while moving and cloaked (modules and such).

If you can think of other ways to address this, say so. Thanks!

Ostia is designed as a new player ship - hence why I'd rather see it 'core-free' so new players can quickly access it. It's a very limited capability ship (slower lane speed, limited space) but introduces the concept and in the event manufacturing lanes aren't readily available allows them this instead. Fuel is expensive and I fear new players will miss out on Ostia because of the prices.

For Vulcan and Hephaestus, though, I can see fuel being a demanded resource - but again the time constraints become an issue. If you require fuel at all times, the ships become very expensive to maintain and run, something a nomadic corporation will be hard pressed to do. That's why I propose the ships being able to manufacture at reduced efficiency without fuel - but really cores should be used if you intend to compete with stations in the ships, as you have proposed.
SandKid
Sunset Logistics Company
#39 - 2012-01-03 06:06:12 UTC  |  Edited by: SandKid
Gerrick Palivorn wrote:
tankus2 wrote:
Gerrick Palivorn wrote:
As far as reprocessing goes, why not just make an alternate Industrial Core for the Rorqual instead of coming out with a whole new line of ships. It makes sense since the Rorqual already compresses the ore, why not refine it as well.


Simply put: it would make having a compression industrial core seem daft. Why squeeze something into a small space if you are just going to refine it anyway?

As for the topic, I agree with it, though it does step on the toes of my mothership idea :(


If the minerals come out at a higher waste and it takes fuel, then compressing and shiping to be refined will still be a cheaper, better option for you, but it makes no sense to increase the amounts of ships by so many. Modify the ones we have and make the waste high enough that people will have to consider whether or not to export to a station to refine.


Compressing and Shipping is only an option in K-Space, not worm holes. I personally have no qualms with adding ships to EVE so long as they actually add. Your concern about redundancy is an important one, so keep that at the forefront of this discussion. Changing the stats or capabilities of an existing ship cuts down on dev time a lot - you don't have to design a new ship in the art department for starters.

However, I think compression goes hand in hand with these ships - especially the mobile refiners. Compression would allow these ships to churn out more minerals quicker by fitting more into their holds. This means that even with reduced efficiency, a rorqual with refinement ships might be more efficient in terms of time - compress the ore still, but so you can get minerals much faster than having to haul them to the nearest station with high standings. For corporations that lack those logistics (from wars, lack of members, routes, etc) this opens up that option even further.

Another problem Gerrick is skill requirements - by adding features to a ship, you require even more skills to make it effective. One of the reasons EVE has so many ships is because of this. We could have just made a single cruiser that has all the capabilities of all the tech II ships, just dependent on fitting instead. This is why Ostia is so inefficient - it's a new player ship that introduces the MMS concept, much like Gaia is an easily accessed refining ship (that's not super efficient compared to it's T2).

Somewhat off topic, but important to remember is the fun in EVE - Progression. What makes getting into a battleship or Hulk enjoyable? They are no different than the frigate or bantam you came from...same story at the end of the day, but bigger and better. This is the joy of EVE. Traders see this when they start trading in battleships...instead of cheap 1MN afterburners. This is why there are multiples of these ships - they enable a player to specialize in a field they enjoy. Many manufacturers HATE mining - buying their minerals instead, or relying on miners in their corp. Just as many miners HATE manufacturing. I happen to be the former. These ships expand on the careers in Industry and give Manufacturers a ship that really belongs to their career.
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2012-01-03 07:11:17 UTC
SandKid wrote:
Compressing and Shipping is only an option in K-Space, not worm holes. I personally have no qualms with adding ships to EVE so long as they actually add. Your concern about redundancy is an important one, so keep that at the forefront of this discussion. Changing the stats or capabilities of an existing ship cuts down on dev time a lot - you don't have to design a new ship in the art department for starters.


This is my first thought when refining ships were brought up.

SandKid wrote:
However, I think compression goes hand in hand with these ships - especially the mobile refiners. Compression would allow these ships to churn out more minerals quicker by fitting more into their holds. This means that even with reduced efficiency, a rorqual with refinement ships might be more efficient in terms of time - compress the ore still, but so you can get minerals much faster than having to haul them to the nearest station with high standings. For corporations that lack those logistics (from wars, lack of members, routes, etc) this opens up that option even further.

Another problem Gerrick is skill requirements - by adding features to a ship, you require even more skills to make it effective. One of the reasons EVE has so many ships is because of this. We could have just made a single cruiser that has all the capabilities of all the tech II ships, just dependent on fitting instead. This is why Ostia is so inefficient - it's a new player ship that introduces the MMS concept, much like Gaia is an easily accessed refining ship (that's not super efficient compared to it's T2).


It wouldn't add anything at all really, the progression into a Rorqual is from the Hulk and Orca. With this in mind, not many people will make it to the Rorqual with out good refining skills. Infact most miners take pride in them. Ok so Refining V will be needed for the new core, but most miners have that anyway, no harm done. Why can't the Rorqual fit Refining Cores and have the Gaia designed as well. The Rorqual should be the ultimate ORE ship, it should be able to compress or refine as needs dictate.

This way if you have many pilots you can compress and refine, but if pilots are limited you can just refine out of the Rorqual. Options are a good thing, besides I would like to limit the amount of capitals I would have to babysit.

SandKid wrote:
Somewhat off topic, but important to remember is the fun in EVE - Progression. What makes getting into a battleship or Hulk enjoyable? They are no different than the frigate or bantam you came from...same story at the end of the day, but bigger and better. This is the joy of EVE. Traders see this when they start trading in battleships...instead of cheap 1MN afterburners. This is why there are multiples of these ships - they enable a player to specialize in a field they enjoy. Many manufacturers HATE mining - buying their minerals instead, or relying on miners in their corp. Just as many miners HATE manufacturing. I happen to be the former. These ships expand on the careers in Industry and give Manufacturers a ship that really belongs to their career.


First bigger is not always better. Also if you try to add to much at once you kill one of the original points that you made. The fact that this would increase the capability to be 100% nomadic. The more ships you add, the more pilots there are needed to pilot them, or the more ships you need to carry them. I don't disagree that the smaller refining ships should exhist, they should. Ships should be multipurpose, which is why the Rorqual needs the Refining Core as well as the Compression Core.

For the nomadic lifestyle, the less ships you HAVE to have the better.

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-