These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Mobile Manufacturing - Ostia, Vulcan and Hephaestus

Author
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#41 - 2012-01-03 08:55:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Here I was expecting a brand new idea and left disapointed.

Bottom line its going to be cluttersome and counter intiutive and bad convayance of what an industrial needs to train and focus on which isnt anything haveing to do with the ultimate manufacture of the item those people already have alot of other things to consider.

This is almost going to be as bad as being unable to park a super cap overall in the problems that will be accompanying the ship.

And before you go "but I suggested a ship that builds things' at me, I am not sure if even if i updated it but I'm pertty sure it implied that my mobile factories (named according to eve item database dumps) only builds things that regulars manufacture lines wont allow you to build with becuase it involves hazardous materials and practices to make some 'sub-par' ammo drones ships and modules and only the full cap does the manufacture, the subcap refines the trash.

And its a Thukker ship.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Neo160
Unwelcome Visitors
#42 - 2012-01-03 09:24:21 UTC
I absolutely LOVE this idea. just the idea to be able to reprocess modules into minerals is great for null sec ratters such as myself, especially since many 0.0 stations can't reprocess at all.

as far as stats go, i recommend t2 level resists on all of these industrial ships, even the starter one, and for one basic reason: they are going to be punching bags, and they will generally be used in dangerous space. much of the time these ships will be used as an alternative to POS production, so they will be highly vulnerable to attack, as they will likely be in a safe spot, and stationary, not behind pos shields. they will be very valuable and sought after gank targets, as they could drop valuable BPO's. furthermore, if this will be added as a new career for eve's new player population, they will be even more likely to be ganked and attacked, as greifers love easy carebear tears. for these reasons, and for the fact that these ships will never be able to shoot back at any aggressors, they should have high resists, such as AHAC's, to be able to take an initial beating, and T2 MMS's should also have a higher natural resistance to warp disruption, as they will likely carry expensive bpo's and bpc's. they will still be vulnerable with these additions, as warp disruption bubbles and infinite point will still hold these ships in place. survivability needs to be a concern as these ships will be much higher risk to fly then most other ships in their size class. EVE is not just about risk vs reward, but a proper balance of risk vs reward. an enemy ship intent on ganking these ships should put an equal isk, effort, and risk, into attacking MMS's as the pilots who fly them. if they are too easy to destroy (hint: Hulks v.s destroyers), they will have to hide behind POS shields, which thus defeats their initial purpose, to enable corporations to avoid using POSes. Hulks are easily gankable, but they thrive in high numbers. MMS's will not be nearly as popular, and therefore killing any will have more impact.

the only major flaw i see is cargo hold size. minerals take up LOTS of space. this will be extremely obvious when a player tries to reprocess modules or ore. if they fill up their entire hold with modules or ore, they wont be able to reprocess any, as the minerals wont fit. 2000 m3 of reprocessable modules can easily make several hundred thousand units of tritanium, plus tons of other minerals. a solution to this problem is to put minerals into the MMS before production, but this defeats their nomadic purpose, they need to take ore and then turn them into minerals. a solution to this could be a T2 Noctis. this ship would not only be able to salvage more effectively, but it could break down module salvage to different types of metal scraps, (at an efficiency cost of course). ccp recently made all metal scraps extremely tiny, so a ship that could break down module's into scrap metal, and then give said scrap metal to an MMS, the MMS could easily reprocess some of the scrap into minerals, and then pull from their bank of scrap metal when they need more minerals. higher end scrap metals could produce higher end mineraels, so that an MMS with all kinds of scrap would be well supplied. the capital MMS will have few cargo issues, but smaller MMS ships will need cargo bays on the order of T1 haulers.

on the fact that carrying and reprocessing ore would take up TONS of cargo space really really fast. I would give MMS ships a special role bonus, the ability to reprocess not only regular ore, but also compressed ore. an MMS could reprocess compressed ore as needed, and a dedicated and organized group of nomads should have a Rorqual handy to compress minerals.

what would be a really cool addon to this group of ships would be a rudimentary research vessel. it could use the Echelon hull, as it would certainly look the part. it could research bpos and bpc's, and also produce bpc's for MMS ships. if a nomadic corp needs to use a very valuable BPO, they could simply produce copies from this research ship, so that their corpies can produce said item without risking the loss of having a valuable BPO stolen, and so that more than one MMS can produce the same product. the ship could be very useful and valuable, even with only a single research slot. for this same reason, using the ship is very risky with valuable bpo's, as this could prove an extremely valuable target for enemy ships. its defense would be its size, as it would have the signature radius of a frigate, it would be harder to hit. although, I'm not sure about resists, or warp stability, as the ability to research on the move is a very powerful one, and may require many downsides to balance it out.

last, but not least, would MMS ships be able to manufacture (and reprocess) while docked?

TL;DR your idea is awesome, and ship stats are needed.
Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
Feign Disorder
#43 - 2012-01-03 16:22:34 UTC
the eve economy will take a hit if people could do this. i'd rather have ccp fix unused pos features in game.
Chujo Jong
Galactic Empire Corporation
#44 - 2012-01-03 17:30:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Chujo Jong
SandKid wrote:


CLOAKING

Pending it has the CPU and highslot, yes. While cloaked processes can't be started - but I would think they could manufacture while cloaked once started. My idea on this is that the ships behave like lanes - they don't take up capacitor or anything of that sort, and can manufacture while docked in a station even (though that's kind of silly unless the station had no lanes - again, citing the trade side). The one example of cloaking not working is with the cores - these are active modules and thus prevent cloaking.

MOVEMENT

This in no way affects manufacturing on the lane - as said for cloaking, the process is like a station in that it does not affect the ship in any way (unless consuming fuel). Because cores are active modules, this is the one example movement is not possible and docked in station would not work, since you cannot use the modules.

FITTING AND DEPLOYMENT

Because of the ship maintenance array (or Vulcan and Hephaestus), yes manufactured ships (or those in space with access), could be fitted. They must first be assembled and launched and controlled by a player though. One potential problem here is assembling ships in space - I don't actually know if that is possible right now. Can someone answer for me?


Keep the feedback and questions coming! Bear in mind on the fitting questions, you may recall the war-fix surrounding Orcas being immune to fitting an aggressed ship. I don't remember if this was fixed. Can someone confirm that as well? Regardless, whatever the existing mechanic is for the Orca and Rorqual, so would be the same here.


The idea for these new ship types fills a gap in manufacturing. I find it annoying when travelling away from my preferred mining location to another with all minerals and blueprints in order to find a manufacturing queue, only to find that the queue is full. Being a 2 man corp. of me and a friend we find it hard to make such profit to run a POS so this would be good alternative.

All the comments at the moment seem to be directed at the functionality of the ship, however if you think of it from a designers point of view you also need to think of a model.

What is going to be visible? (challenging the game engine)
Lanes are internal or external?
How is the ship constructed?



When it comes to ship design you need to think of how it will look as this can also effect how the ship will manufacture its modules and ships. Technically a Lane is where you would perform the entire construction of a ship, but you could make the ship unique compared to others with something like the following examples.

Example 1
Internal Lane - Small Ship - External Finalization
If it was equipped with an internal lane, and the ship is smaller than the ships it can produce, then the following would apply.

Rule 1: Ship cannot move during production
Rule 2: Once certain segments of the ship have been produced, they would be assembled in front of the ship by remote bots (drones of some sort)
Rule 3: Ship can launch a cloak bubble around itself. Within the bubble only the ship can see what is taking place. i.e. User of ship can see ship as normal, all else outside of bubble would see nothing (can be detected by scanners, making it not 100% safe)

Rule 2 would mean that you could see the final steps of the production take place right in front of your eyes, giving your new ship a unique feature like no other!

Example 2
Internal Lane - Large Ship - Internal Finalization - Visible construction
Ship equipped with an internal lane, Ship larger than all ships it can produce, some sort of transparent Glass/Force field to which you can see construction of ship taking place within the model.

Rule 1: Ship can warp and Jump
Rule 2: Ship production can be seen through the transparent shielding
Rule 3: Ship can launch cloak bubble as above example

This also challenges the game engine graphically making it again, unique.

Example 3
External lane - Large Ship - External Finalization
Would be the same in a way as the first example. however entire construction would be visible.

Rule 1: Ship cannot move during production
Rule 2: Ship production seen at all times
Rule 3: Ship can launch cloak bubble as above examples

This would in a sense be a large project if manufacturing were to be visible as they would need to make appearance of the ship as it is built. Quite challenging for someone in modelling and programming.

However this would still work if you were to have some sort of cover, like a sheet, the same size and shape as the ship, then some flashes and lights to give the welding and metal work effect.

It could have so much graphical features implemented that would really show off the skills of the CCP designers and artists!
Xantia Gates
Perkone
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-01-03 21:24:56 UTC
Love this idea.

It would open up a whole other area of operations for me.
SandKid
Sunset Logistics Company
#46 - 2012-01-04 03:07:45 UTC
Quote:
First bigger is not always better. Also if you try to add to much at once you kill one of the original points that you made. The fact that this would increase the capability to be 100% nomadic. The more ships you add, the more pilots there are needed to pilot them, or the more ships you need to carry them. I don't disagree that the smaller refining ships should exhist, they should. Ships should be multipurpose, which is why the Rorqual needs the Refining Core as well as the Compression Core.

For the nomadic lifestyle, the less ships you HAVE to have the better.


This is a really good point - you're right about more players = harder nomad playstyle.

You bring up some more good questions that need to be answered, as I'm seeing a trend here on certain issues...

1) The ships were initially being balanced to not compete against POS, but several have stated that if POS remain superior, these ships will see a diminished use. One player went so far as to say nomads need POS. In order to make these ships a viable option of a totally POS-free playstyle for nomads, should they be comparable or even superior to POS manufacturing and refining? This is done on the premise that more players are needed since these are ships - whereas a POS, once set up, is much more autonomous and runs even while players are away/offline. As such, this 'balances' the use of the ships. Remember: ships don't have reinforcement timers, so with the advantage comes risk.

2) Refining on the Rorqual: Should the Rorqual have refining added to its capabilities so that the smaller refining ships aren't necessary, but instead a good option for large-scale operations?
The idea behind this is that the Rorqual should be the ultimate ORE ship - it could compress ore for shipment if that was wiser, as is the case now, or for nomads it could perform refinement itself at the slightly reduced efficiency and/or with cores that use fuel to balance the ship against station refinement.

3) Cargo Bays: Minerals take up a lot of room, and so does components, compounds and ore. I originally proposed a mineral bay to alleviate this problem, while maintaining balance against other industrials. My concern is that if these ships have giant cargo bays (which makes sense at first) they'll make industrials and potentially even freighters obsolete. I propose the mineral bays as a way to 'halve' the cargo space. This relegates the ships as only useful for hauling minerals in large quantities (for trading), or their intended purpose during manufacture/refinement. All the ships, Rorqual included if changed, would need these mineral bays to maintain this balance. Opinions?

4) Cloaking Mechanics and Timers: The ship being cloaked as it manufactures seems to be unbalanced, but manufacturing can take a long time for ships. For the Hephaestus and Vulcan, this is understandable - capitals are large anyways and being easy targets (for finding, not killing) makes sense.

However, we have a problem with manufacturing time. It was proposed early on that 'rapid cores' be created so the ships, through fuel cost, would be able to significantly speed up production to scale with player time online. i.e. A player wouldn't have to stay uncloaked and logged in for hours on end for a lane to finish. I have several ideas for this, some of which you've provided...

4A: Rapid Cores use fuel to significantly speed up manufacturing, but not necessarily being cost efficient. EX: A module manufactures 8x faster, but the cost of the fuel makes the item more expensive to produce in space than in station - rendering it not market efficient. This is to prevent the ship being abused by mass-filling trade hubs and 'super manufacturing', beating out station lanes and making them obsolete. Ostia would not use cores (being a new player ship and fuel costing too much for them) but would instead have an inferior production speed - relegating it to a 'learning ship' or cheap option, like most Tech I ships.

4B: The ships can cloak, but all manufacturing halts during cloaking, docking, or logged off. The lanes move at standard speeds as stations. Because of the length of manufacturing jobs, the balance effect here is that players must leave their ships logged in, in space, in order to efficiently manufacture. Think AFK, without the cloak - this means the ship is safer (nothing is totally safe) but active playing would be needed anywhere else.

4C: Cloaked Manufacturing - The ships as originally proposed can manufacture, even while logged, cloaked, or docked but do so at an inefficient speed (such as 75%). In order to increase the effectiveness or speed-produce to meet demands, the cores must be used, resulting in immobilization as discussed everywhere else. This enables the ships to 'slow produce' safely, but not compete with market and in a nomadic playstyle probably not keep up with demands. Instead the ships can manufacture as they are relocating or moving or in slow times, but when demand is needed (wars, raids, opportunity) the cores can be engaged (with the risk of being a sitting duck).

Excellent feedback - keep it up. Thanks to Neo160 for pointing out the size limitations of minerals - this is a very important point and plays a pivotal role in balancing these ships such that they don't obsolete existing freight transports.
SandKid
Sunset Logistics Company
#47 - 2012-01-04 03:18:20 UTC
Chujo Jong wrote:


The idea for these new ship types fills a gap in manufacturing. I find it annoying when travelling away from my preferred mining location to another with all minerals and blueprints in order to find a manufacturing queue, only to find that the queue is full. Being a 2 man corp. of me and a friend we find it hard to make such profit to run a POS so this would be good alternative.

All the comments at the moment seem to be directed at the functionality of the ship, however if you think of it from a designers point of view you also need to think of a model.

What is going to be visible? (challenging the game engine)
Lanes are internal or external?
How is the ship constructed?



When it comes to ship design you need to think of how it will look as this can also effect how the ship will manufacture its modules and ships. Technically a Lane is where you would perform the entire construction of a ship, but you could make the ship unique compared to others with something like the following examples.

Example 1
Internal Lane - Small Ship - External Finalization
If it was equipped with an internal lane, and the ship is smaller than the ships it can produce, then the following would apply.

Rule 1: Ship cannot move during production
Rule 2: Once certain segments of the ship have been produced, they would be assembled in front of the ship by remote bots (drones of some sort)
Rule 3: Ship can launch a cloak bubble around itself. Within the bubble only the ship can see what is taking place. i.e. User of ship can see ship as normal, all else outside of bubble would see nothing (can be detected by scanners, making it not 100% safe)

Rule 2 would mean that you could see the final steps of the production take place right in front of your eyes, giving your new ship a unique feature like no other!

Example 2
Internal Lane - Large Ship - Internal Finalization - Visible construction
Ship equipped with an internal lane, Ship larger than all ships it can produce, some sort of transparent Glass/Force field to which you can see construction of ship taking place within the model.

Rule 1: Ship can warp and Jump
Rule 2: Ship production can be seen through the transparent shielding
Rule 3: Ship can launch cloak bubble as above example

This also challenges the game engine graphically making it again, unique.

Example 3
External lane - Large Ship - External Finalization
Would be the same in a way as the first example. however entire construction would be visible.

Rule 1: Ship cannot move during production
Rule 2: Ship production seen at all times
Rule 3: Ship can launch cloak bubble as above examples

This would in a sense be a large project if manufacturing were to be visible as they would need to make appearance of the ship as it is built. Quite challenging for someone in modelling and programming.

However this would still work if you were to have some sort of cover, like a sheet, the same size and shape as the ship, then some flashes and lights to give the welding and metal work effect.

It could have so much graphical features implemented that would really show off the skills of the CCP designers and artists!


Shocked

These are great ideas Chuio!

Considering the limitations of EVE Online right now, we gotta be careful with design. We have begun to see more 'moving parts' on ships - The Naga's Radar for example, and as always all the parts on a Rogue Drone Battleship.

I'm no artist, but I envision the ship as appearing like a silo - You can see sparks and such flying out of it, but not what it is actually making. The cores, as active modules, cause the effect of the lane to 'come to life' or be silent.

Ostia is a single lane ship currently - though it's been proposed it have more lanes to aid new players, but with the same inefficiencies. Ostia won't have cores so the module effect as mentioned above wouldn't exist. I'd propose this ship as an 'enclosed' silo that clearly looks cramped, maybe even similar to a Noctis in that it looks like a flying building more than a ship.

Vulcan and Hephaestus need to be very bulky and possibly square - similar to Rorqual, using the cores would cause the ships to be immobile as they manufacture and 'transform' into a more advanced looking facility. Remember: Rorqual looks like a ship until it engages its core, then it becomes like a giant floating refinery (ironic it compresses, not refines...)

If these ships can manufacture without cores, but with inefficiency, the bays should be somewhat visible so you have the 'spark' effect as they produce. During core usage, the ships inherently transform and become more akin to miniature structures/stations and thus have more moving parts.

The refining ships will have similar moving parts as the Exhumers - gears and pistons that seemingly are working inside the ship to crush and refine whatever it has in its hold. Because refining isn't an active process, but instant, the ships have no 'effect' when refining takes place...unless you want some sort of standpipe that bellows out smoke when reprocessing takes place, hehe.

You are right that we're focusing on functionality - but for our artists out there, don't hesitate to wow us with your concepts and designs! It's a lot easier for CCP to grip something if you give them the art side to envision it. Balancing stats is hard, but mathematical and definite. Artwork is fluid and, in my opinion, usually takes more man hours. Keep it coming - thanks for everyone's input so far!
SandKid
Sunset Logistics Company
#48 - 2012-01-04 03:35:16 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Here I was expecting a brand new idea and left disapointed.

Bottom line its going to be cluttersome and counter intiutive and bad convayance of what an industrial needs to train and focus on which isnt anything haveing to do with the ultimate manufacture of the item those people already have alot of other things to consider.

This is almost going to be as bad as being unable to park a super cap overall in the problems that will be accompanying the ship.

And before you go "but I suggested a ship that builds things' at me, I am not sure if even if i updated it but I'm pertty sure it implied that my mobile factories (named according to eve item database dumps) only builds things that regulars manufacture lines wont allow you to build with becuase it involves hazardous materials and practices to make some 'sub-par' ammo drones ships and modules and only the full cap does the manufacture, the subcap refines the trash.

And its a Thukker ship.


These ships are intended to fill a needed role for creating nomadic playstyles - the offshoot and other advantages relative to fueling war or market demands is a by-product. True-blue manufacturers will effectively have more options on how to use their skills.

1) Manufacture in stations for market/corp purposes (like most players now)
2) Manufacture in POS to meet corp/alliance needs
3) Use MMS to 'play' market with mobility over efficiency as an advantage.
-The way this works is that even though fuel causes the production to cost more, if a player spots a high-demand they can quickly manufacture to supply that demand, outstripping station speeds. The fuel cost is recuperated on the increased profit margin of hitting a demand spike. Effectively a 'market gamble' - something not unusual in EVE now.
4) Use MMS to supply nomadic fleet and not require or supplement a POS (most likely in w-space or roaming fleets)

Remember that the Vulcan is like an Orca - it can access high security and will be much easier to defend than the much larger Hephaestus, which uses jump technology. There is a proposal that the jump technology not be required so the ship has an easier time navigating space for nomads, but I don't support this as the Vulcan enables that. Hephaestus is meant to be the other half of the Rorqual (especially if refining is incorporated to it).

Again, these ships won't 'confuse' manufacturers in any way - they simply open up another career and playstyle for manufacturers. There's nothing here that says the existing convention will be replaced or die out. Personally I'm surprised I'm not seeing more nullsec dwellers jump on this thread to try and put their spin on it. It's been pointed out manufacturing in nullsec isn't exactly a walk in the park. These ships provide an alternative to that - not necessarily a superior or inferior alternative, just another playstyle.

TO CLARIFY: These ships aren't intended to "fix" a feature in EVE's Industry or replace it or change it - they are intended to add to Industry and provide more options in gameplay. I formed this presentation because I saw a lot of industrialists (myself included) wishing their were more 'active' ways to participate beyond using a POS or station. At least miners get to fly around...hehe. Moreover, the ships are focused on, but not limited to, providing a way to create a fully nomadic fleet that is station-free and able to completely 'live off space'. As has been pointed out, here and elsewhere, the ships have a lot of potential to be used for economic opportunism as well - meaning they aren't just useful to nomads.
Chujo Jong
Galactic Empire Corporation
#49 - 2012-01-04 08:36:59 UTC
This is a little idea I had of how it would look for a Dual Lane Battleship capable profile, got bored at work and thought to have a little draw :P

Dual Lane Capable Ship (Battleship Construction)

I'm no expert artist but u get the idea...

This has two lanes, to which can construct up to Battleship classed ships. This model has glass/forcefield effects on it, similar to the front of the Noctis bridge area/docking bay (I think it's the Noctis)

This could then be as simplistic or as complicated as you want it to be!

a) Simple, with a rectangle in center (like a cover) that represents the size of ship you are building, then sparks and what ever effects for things like welding etc... could also have little crane like arms inside that move boxes from side of lane to the center where the action is

b) Same as above however more complex construction model, where your able to see the ship construction take place

Ashra Tesh
The Wenchs' Clench
#50 - 2012-01-04 09:39:26 UTC
Dunno, this idea seems cool except..

Industry stuff takes a lot of time. Are you honestly going to leave a ship immobile for DAYS to complete some production job? What happens if they logout? It seems silly to have a ship either stay logged in while it does it's thing, and equally silly to have it safely chugging along with its production while untouchable and logged out :( How big will the corp hangar be? Eve is supposed the be about risk vs reward, and the fact that ships with corp hangars can't have those hangars scanned, coupled with the fact that stuff in corp hangars doesn't drop when you die, seems like it's an easy way to make people gain nothing from killing them. On that note, will the ship dying give a chance to drop materials or blueprints used in currently running production jobs? Really, the big concern for me is how 'safe' will these ships be to use? If there is little to no risk, they make a poor addition, IMO.

I mean really, if you are a nomadic industrialist, you probably have a small pos tower and a couple structures stuck in a blockade runner, cloaky transport ship or so, or maybe even an orca for hisec? While the whole industry thing is a great source of (mostly) passive income to fund pvp, I don't really see the appeal of this line of ship TBH. Too many balance concerns, and probably too many game mechanics in the way to make them doable :(
Chujo Jong
Galactic Empire Corporation
#51 - 2012-01-04 17:44:06 UTC
Ashra Tesh wrote:
Dunno, this idea seems cool except..

Industry stuff takes a lot of time. Are you honestly going to leave a ship immobile for DAYS to complete some production job? What happens if they logout? It seems silly to have a ship either stay logged in while it does it's thing, and equally silly to have it safely chugging along with its production while untouchable and logged out :( How big will the corp hangar be? Eve is supposed the be about risk vs reward, and the fact that ships with corp hangars can't have those hangars scanned, coupled with the fact that stuff in corp hangars doesn't drop when you die, seems like it's an easy way to make people gain nothing from killing them. On that note, will the ship dying give a chance to drop materials or blueprints used in currently running production jobs? Really, the big concern for me is how 'safe' will these ships be to use? If there is little to no risk, they make a poor addition, IMO.

I mean really, if you are a nomadic industrialist, you probably have a small pos tower and a couple structures stuck in a blockade runner, cloaky transport ship or so, or maybe even an orca for hisec? While the whole industry thing is a great source of (mostly) passive income to fund pvp, I don't really see the appeal of this line of ship TBH. Too many balance concerns, and probably too many game mechanics in the way to make them doable :(


If you think there is no risk, then external finalization would be better for you. This brings greater risk to theft and pirates trying to gank after construction has complete. It would also require more than one pilot to complete the job, and the user being logged in to finalize the job, Just like you need to deliver the goods to your hangar from the manufacturing line.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#52 - 2012-01-04 18:50:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Let me say this an allaince with a few jump freighters and a system full of factories will always beat you to the punch if they're that sort of allaince.

A pilot from another region watching the market and alot of capital is going to beat you to the punch as well, while you are still gathering minerals hes already picked up the shipment and his on his way.

This ship is extremly inconvient to have in high sec and honestly the ships dont belong in high sec at all, they're going to have it rough in low sec, and in null sec you're always better off with an outpost. and from CCP point of view these are not needed in wormhole space either.

Its probably why the ship has been on eve's data base for YEARS and never implimented.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Elindreal
Planetary Interactors
#53 - 2012-01-04 21:14:16 UTC
but can't you just imagine jita 4-4 being permanently surrounded by a ball of industrial ships owned by industrialists you can't get a lane inside the station?

it might even be fun to gank them as part of hulkageddon
i expect that these ships will be quite flimsy, even their capital counterparts
Jish Ness
Veldspar Loving
#54 - 2012-01-05 03:32:10 UTC
Great idea, so long as these ships aren't as efficient as a POS or Station. Even with fuel they shouldn't be, or you have everyone swarming the hubs as stated in above posts.
SandKid
Sunset Logistics Company
#55 - 2012-01-05 04:18:30 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Let me say this an allaince with a few jump freighters and a system full of factories will always beat you to the punch if they're that sort of allaince.

A pilot from another region watching the market and alot of capital is going to beat you to the punch as well, while you are still gathering minerals hes already picked up the shipment and his on his way.

This ship is extremly inconvient to have in high sec and honestly the ships dont belong in high sec at all, they're going to have it rough in low sec, and in null sec you're always better off with an outpost. and from CCP point of view these are not needed in wormhole space either.

Its probably why the ship has been on eve's data base for YEARS and never implimented.



I'm glad you have concerns about this ship design but I feel like I or others addressed them - but I guess not, so here goes:

1) The opportunity of market-usage is very different from normal manufacturing. Under the proposed core design, the ships manufacture at a very high speed but at a fuel cost. This results in a much more expensive production cost - the advantage is the speed. While what you say about alliances is true, or even hisec, these ships will be able to fulfill market demand spikes very quickly through this speed. HOWEVER...they're only good for spikes as they have to make up the fuel cost in increased profits.

2) The ship was not designed to rival POS in any way - nor are they supposed to be the most efficient option. They are just an option of a different gameplay style. Not everyone in EVE is as efficient as possible: procurers are still bought by new miners, players still fly rifters when they easily have the skills and isk for wolves and jaguars, not just drakes and hurricanes are flown, dreadnaughts are still used despite existing mechanics, people still run lvl 4 missions, and corporations raid wormholes rather than live in them even though they are more than capable of using a POS and getting it there.

The point is arguing super-efficiency as a requirement for a ship is not, well, efficient! Hehe. Tech I ships are efficient in one way - they're cheap. That's it! These ships are efficient in special circumstances - the focus is the nomad playstyle, which doesn't really exist as a stationary object does not equal nomadic. But they do also have other possibilities - why are neuts on ships that don't bonus neuts? It's a playstyle, a tactic developed.

3) Saying CCP doesn't want these in wormholes is a bit out of place for someone who isn't CCP. While I will gladly accept that end result from a developer - it's their decision at the end of the day after all - I won't accept it from a player who has for multiple posts now challenged the ship exclusively against a Lore concept and POS mechanics. I very much appreciate the feedback and you need to continue to raise points that are flaws in the design - I'm simply stating that 'speaking' for CCP isn't something I or anyone else will take into consideration unless stated by a CCP representative in this thread. I say that in case anyone links some ancient CCP comment on this concept from 2004 or some such...

elindreal wrote:

but can't you just imagine jita 4-4 being permanently surrounded by a ball of industrial ships owned by industrialists you can't get a lane inside the station?

it might even be fun to gank them as part of hulkageddon
i expect that these ships will be quite flimsy, even their capital counterparts


Hehe...as funny as it sounds it probably wouldn't happen. Because of the fuel cost, which results in a high production cost, the ships as far as markets are concerned can only address spikes in demand effectively. Major trade hubs, like Jita, do see spikes but because of the mass traffic someone, somewhere, already has the goods on hand to fill it or in on the way. This is different from Nova's point - in smaller markets or scarce markets where supply can shift dramatically with one buy order, these ships will excel best. Nova is right - an alliance with jump freighters could manufacture the demanded goods and ship them within a matter of hours.

In terms of survivability we haven't gotten to stats. In hisec they probably will be flimsy from folks fitting cargo expanders rather than a tank of any sort (like the Orca or most industrials in hisec). It will have the capability to tank well in hostile regions, though we've not gotten into the nitty gritty of stats. We're still working out the details on functionality and balance on the core concept of manufacturing in space. All suggestions on stats are welcome though!

These ships would need only the minerals and they could manufacture the goods in a matter of an hour. The caveat is having the minerals available. If this is a pilot or corporation using these ships specifically to 'hunt spikes' - they'll have their supply on hand just like a POS or station would, but stored instead on freighters or an Orca. So again, these ships won't 'clutter' hisec hubs because the fuel cost makes them unable to compete effectively with a constant flow of goods to those hubs. Instead they'll be able to capitalize on scarce markets.

The question keeps getting brought up on manufacturing being a slow process - please read the thread fully, manufacturing cores and how they significantly speed up the ship are explained a couple of times. The caveat to this speed increase is a fuel cost so as to balance out the ship. This is the direct answer to why Elindreal's comment won't happen - fuel costs are on the ship so Jita DOESN'T get filled with 100's of these ships trying to produce on-site.

Keep up the feedback - all of it, positive or negative, helps a lot. Nova Fox is bring up a lot of different potential flaws in the ship, so keep hammering away. The goal of this thread is to work out those flaws so the ship design can be helpful! Thanks!
SandKid
Sunset Logistics Company
#56 - 2012-01-05 04:19:28 UTC  |  Edited by: SandKid
Sorry for such long posts - I don't get to the view the forums but once a day so I try to answer as many critiques, suggestions, and such as possible in a single post.What?

By the way Ellindreal - don't get down in the dumps. There won't be hundreds in Jita, but you can bet some new player or fool will think manufacturing on-site with fuel makes him cool looking or more isk. Same reason as the minerals you mine are free.Roll

You can bet you'll get to gank these - and considering they'd be carrying blueprints and potentially large quantities of minerals or finished goods, they might be a good one to go after!
SandKid
Sunset Logistics Company
#57 - 2012-01-05 04:32:26 UTC
Jish Ness wrote:
Great idea, so long as these ships aren't as efficient as a POS or Station. Even with fuel they shouldn't be, or you have everyone swarming the hubs as stated in above posts.


The fuel cost makes them speed efficient, not cost efficient. Just because you can mass produce it doesn't mean you can mass sell it to recuperate fuel costs.

Outside of market mechanics, this speed is at its best when speed is needed - your alliance is drained of replacement ships, modules, and ammo from your war...and the enemy is attacking your POS NOW. Getting supplies to that battle will be less than easy considering the enemy fleet - but a group of MSS's inside the shields could mass manufacture the needed goods in time...at a high fuel cost of course, but when it comes to losing something that valuable...well, why do you think fuel is involved in siege modules to begin with?

It's cost effective for a dreadnaught or carrier or Titan to not use its fuel...it's not very effective tactically or time-wise though, is it? POS Bashing without siege modules anyone? Great stuff...
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#58 - 2012-01-05 05:19:11 UTC
Also blueprint cost and time is going to factor against this.

Should restrict it to copies only becuase no smart pilot in thier right mind is going to use a researched original to compete at the risk of a gaurantee loss instead of a strontium insured loss at a much cheaper Starbase.

And this is where your idea starts running into a serious problem, why deploy this ship when a starbase is going to be cheaper?

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#59 - 2012-01-05 07:09:45 UTC
I absolutely love this idea.

What I would love to see tho, is that the Vulcan and his bigger brother/sister can also manufacture capital components in addition to ships and modules.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Axel Korgain
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-01-05 23:18:54 UTC
A Nomad by definition is a person who is moving with regenerating resources.

Nomads live like that because other richer lands are inhabited already by stronger forces who have greater industrial power because they have the military might to occupy best locations.

So what we really are talking about here is the mechanics of space in game.

I remember when I first joined up in 2007 wanting ships that could build jump gates and for players to be able to destroy gates. Wormholes have opened up the lifestyle all you have to do is go live it.

Wormholes not exactly what you're looking for? Well what you are really asking for is vast numbers of systems to get lost in. Systems that force you to move onwards following the regenerating resources.

THEN and only then is talking about ships even necessary.

If the idea of vast areas of nomad space were ever implemented there would need to be also added additional fortifications and cool stuff for all those Alliances who have chosen to be static and Industrial. For every factory ship and mobile addition there needs to be system wide defence laser deth beam and or auto drone mining facility.

I like the idea of being a nomad because I don't much like the idea of being cannon fodder. That said though nomads would need to be ELITE because otherwise you're all going to get ambushed one day and be utterly annihilated. So Nomads would need to have the ability to defend themselves encapsulated in knowledge of terrain---->WORMHOLE SPACE