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Jump Fatigue Feedback

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Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#161 - 2015-08-13 16:09:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Sexy Cakes
I am so pissed off by the jump fatigue and jump range changes I don't even really want to post in this thread. (Imagine someone punches you in the face then wants to know how your face feels.)

But against my better judgement I'll try to give some constructive criticism in this thread.

1) Carrier jump ranges are way too low. All travel is 10x more tedious now.

2) You effectively told all of nullsec to travel in industrials or have your entire jump bridge network removed. Like really? That's the message that got sent out... my pvp characters now need to train up cov ops haulers to use a jump bridge network? wtf is that

That's all I can list because just typing about this crap makes me want to uninstall EVE. I sold all my capitals and unsubbed my super character. Get a freaking clue CCP this was a horrendous change and as always it takes you guys 6-9 months to figure that out.

Not today spaghetti.
Pandora Myuki
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#162 - 2015-08-13 16:12:43 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Pandora Myuki wrote:

Increase Range to 10 LY's for Supers and Titans, 8 LY, for Regular Carriers and dreads, 12LY for BLops (12 LY for a cov ops cyno 50% on the timer and 10LY for a Regular cyno and the reg timer in effect), and industrials/JF. (JF's should also get a 75% reduction on the Jump timer)


Why should supers go further than regular caps? Super blobs are half the reason Fatigue was put into place, people couldn't use their dreadnoughts without fear of PL or their local supercap powerhouse killing them all.



A 2 LY increase is not a large increase but it makes it equal for the class and size of the ship. Of course Supers and Titans should be more powerful, they are the hardest ship in the game to train into and the most powerful and most expensive. Now it's up to you if you want to jump a Super and titan fleet in unsupported while your Carriers are 20 minutes and 4 ly's behind. Blops are 12 LY's bcause thats what they are made for, jump in kill jump out., hence the difference for Cov ops Cyno's and Regular Cyno's.
Daugan
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#163 - 2015-08-13 16:14:10 UTC
If only we could drop the NDA bullshit.

I still don't understand why a CCP dev can't come to the forums/reddit and sound this out with the player group until hundreds of man hours have already been sunk, and the devblog release. IMHO the decision to be all 1337 OPSEC about your intentions is the biggest problem facing CCP's path to the future.
CCP Larrikin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#164 - 2015-08-13 16:28:15 UTC
Tolstoyevski Tsuyasa wrote:

But like I mentioned before, I'm not certain if something like this system suggested could be implemented by CCP; as nice as it would be to have Blops Generation separate from Capitals, have 5 timers per pilot might be difficult to manage on the client.

Your thoughts, CCP?

I think its an interesting concept. One of my concerns about it is the additional complexity, 5 timers instead of one for players to keep track of?

Game Designer | Team Phenomenon | https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin
CCP Larrikin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#165 - 2015-08-13 16:36:19 UTC
h4kun4 wrote:
Some suggestions:
Examples for difficulty might be that you cant move as far and you can't carry that much fuel. 5 Light Years range is a joke, combine that with a fuel bay that has enough fuel for lets say 10-15 light years and you can think how difficult it would be to move a 500 man cap fleet around the galaxy.
You would need to have fuel caches everywhere or have Jump Freighters travel with you. So, risk vs. reward, also preparation vs. reward.


Wouldn't this just mandate JF's for move ops without having any real effect on power projection?
Arguably, having to cynos in place = preparation, and chains of cynos across the galaxy allowing rapid power projection was one of the reasons jump fatigue was introduced in the first place?

Something like this could be potential used in combination with other effects (which your suggestion goes into more depth with).

Game Designer | Team Phenomenon | https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin
Equto
Imperium Technologies
Sigma Grindset
#166 - 2015-08-13 17:02:14 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
h4kun4 wrote:
Some suggestions:
Examples for difficulty might be that you cant move as far and you can't carry that much fuel. 5 Light Years range is a joke, combine that with a fuel bay that has enough fuel for lets say 10-15 light years and you can think how difficult it would be to move a 500 man cap fleet around the galaxy.
You would need to have fuel caches everywhere or have Jump Freighters travel with you. So, risk vs. reward, also preparation vs. reward.


Wouldn't this just mandate JF's for move ops without having any real effect on power projection?
Arguably, having to cynos in place = preparation, and chains of cynos across the galaxy allowing rapid power projection was one of the reasons jump fatigue was introduced in the first place?

Something like this could be potential used in combination with other effects (which your suggestion goes into more depth with).

Honestly I am failing to see a way that makes capitals more than local defense forces without allowing power projection. Part of the problem now is with fatigue going any significant distance in anything not a jump freighter takes ages now. My play time when moving has been limited from a 5-6 hour one day move op to multiple weeks of 5-6 hour move ops. Not only is it no longer fun if I have to move again I very well may quit eve. I have the option of a long tedious process of moving my stuff again in what is basically the most painful mechanic ever put into eve or trashing what I have and attempting to setup again somewhere else. With fatigue and moves I literally have a choice between wasting weeks of time on what should be a fun game and during these weeks I have no ability todo anything else. Or to lose all the wealth I have acquired to no be out for several weeks.

And that is just logistics, capitals are now in a position where they really can't be reliably used for assaults.If the enemy has capitals none of their fleet will have fatigue where as yours will. You don't have the option of an "exit' cyno anymore and the moment you step foot in their area you are at their whim for whenever they attack you. So not only have you made eve "larger" by reducing the rate of movement, you have made staging bases fortresses as was discussed at the roundtable. While taking gates should mitigate this problem capitals are slow beast that gates do not play well with.
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
#167 - 2015-08-13 17:04:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Zeus Maximo
1. Since every jump fatigue method has been discussed I would like to throw out a brand new idea.

Combative capitals can jump across 1 half of the map when they have zero fatigue. However, if they so choose to make the maximum distance jump they will automatically receive 7 days of fatigue(new max). The cool down should remain to prevent rapid movements.

Example: Lets say the universe is 100 light years wide. This means the new jump range would be 50 light years.
-If a titan jumps the full 50 light years he will receive 7 days of fatigue.
-If a titan jumps 25 light years he will receive half a week(84 hours) of fatigue.

Positives:
-allows returning players to more easily catch up to friends
-takes away "jump range" but keeps fatigue.
-makes the center of null-sec the hill and entities will probably want to be the king of the hill so they can have Limited power projection(If you take the max jump, it is technically a 1 way trip).
-power projection is still harnessed because pilots will have to account for their fatigue time if they do the crime.
-living on the outside of the map will make you cut off from the content

Negatives:
-people will still complain about fatigue
-b-r round 2 might happen(tidi)
-low-sec won't like null-sec supers in range

What this changes:
In the past entities could travel across the map, get kills, and then travel back in a few hours. This change would not only make every entity more accountable for their capital moves but it would also require those using their supers/titans to know that they are going on a one way trip.

"Yeah we can participate in this fight but we won't be able to jump home for another 2 days. We have an important timer to defend in 6 hours so we can't afford to miss it."

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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5n4keyes
Sacred Templars
Fraternity.
#168 - 2015-08-13 17:30:17 UTC
Fatigue is a pain in the backside, but it is something that is needed for the game. Personally I would change the max timer, 30 days is simply too much, and too punishing, I think 7 days would be more fair, tho I think more players would support a limit of 3 days.

CCP, have you considered however a change that would have a massive impact on a lot of mechanics of the game, and that is, more efficient/refined fuel.

Take Nitrogen Isotopes, imagine if you could combine them with other resources, which in turn make them more efficient. The fuel might make it so that jumping costs you 10% less fatigue. You could apply a higher bonus to black ops. Whilst at the same time not impacting Jump bridges.

So, people would still mine ice, yay.

In 0.0 you could add items to Data sites, which would make Data sites firstly worth doing, these items could be BPCs to make the refined fuel, as well as components to use in the making of the refined fuel.

You could then have a secondary site, I would possibly say Gas Clouds, which you would combine, but to make things more interesting, the clouds are divided like Ice is, by regional divides. But the Cloud you need, might not be the one that spawns in your region. As an Amarr you might need a cloud found in Minmatar space, combined with parts from a Data site, to produce the refined fuel.

Doing this, would create a nice boost to industry, it would make exploration more important for alliances, Data sites would have some value and be worth doing. You can then basically give Black Ops a bit of a boost, and capitals a bit more freedom, but at the same time, boost the costs for doing so. Eg, JFs wont be using the fuel, as it probably wouldn't be cost effective, Jump bridges would remain the same, and thus eyes of terror less of a thing. Plus you create an industry around it.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#169 - 2015-08-13 17:37:25 UTC
And one more thing...

This devblog: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/where-we-stand/

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66972/1/Jumps.jpg

Quote:
The real use of this metric will be later as we evaluate Phase Two. As the next set of changes do not involve direct changes to power projection we would hope that an increase in Nullsec jumps over the summer would reflect an overall increase in player engagement.


Lets see the metric that this refers to now.

That graph was posted on March 3rd.

But more on point: Why would you group gate jumps and cyno jumps and leave out jump bridges completely with such a major change?

Show us the graphs on jump bridge usage, jump drive to cyno's and gate jumps as 3 separate lines on the same graph.

Not today spaghetti.
Alyxportur
From Our Cold Dead Hands
ORPHANS OF EVE
#170 - 2015-08-13 17:44:44 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
And one more thing...

This devblog: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/where-we-stand/

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66972/1/Jumps.jpg

Quote:
The real use of this metric will be later as we evaluate Phase Two. As the next set of changes do not involve direct changes to power projection we would hope that an increase in Nullsec jumps over the summer would reflect an overall increase in player engagement.


Lets see the metric that this refers to now.

That graph was posted on March 3rd.

But more on point: Why would you group gate jumps and cyno jumps and leave out jump bridges completely with such a major change?

Show us the graphs on jump bridge usage, jump drive to cyno's and gate jumps as 3 separate lines on the same graph.


They may not be recorded/logged separately. Do the 'jumps' via the public API (e.g. jumps in the last hour on dotlan) refer only to gates or gates + capitals?
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#171 - 2015-08-13 17:46:00 UTC
Alyxportur wrote:


They may not be recorded/logged separately. Do the 'jumps' via the public API (e.g. jumps in the last hour on dotlan) refer only to gates or gates + capitals?


Well then it's a ****** metric to use.

Not today spaghetti.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#172 - 2015-08-13 17:50:07 UTC
What about the idea of tying JF to clones, vice account. Sure, you can have multiple clones, but with the inability to set remote clones, you'll still have to fly a ship there. Not to mention you do have limited number of clones. Sure, you give the informorph skills a huge advantage, but wasn't that the whole point before with the jump drive skills. (which are now practically useless).
Karti Aivo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#173 - 2015-08-13 17:59:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Karti Aivo
Extending the Range capitals can jump would just and only extend the range large groups call "home" or "Dunkzone", nothing else.

I like TinkerHells proposal of tweaking the timers and at least keeping the 5 minute Jump Delay.

Like literally Pre Phoebe the problem was that you could teleport within minutes across the galaxy.
Now you need Weeks to project through 2 regions and i guess thats similarly over the top aswell.

I think it would be reasonable to say that it should take /hours/ to move a couple of regions, not /days/ or Weeks.
Alyxportur
From Our Cold Dead Hands
ORPHANS OF EVE
#174 - 2015-08-13 18:02:37 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Alyxportur wrote:


They may not be recorded/logged separately. Do the 'jumps' via the public API (e.g. jumps in the last hour on dotlan) refer only to gates or gates + capitals?


Well then it's a ****** metric to use.


It may not have been intended as anything more detailed than a basic activity/travel metric. If they could separate out just capital jumps (non-gate capital jumps that is) and publish those statistics as a table of #s per day, I would be surprised if they did anything but decline to a lower, stable level.

My experience is that we all now avoid jumping capitals as much as possible.
Viger
Tortuga Trading Company
#175 - 2015-08-13 18:30:28 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Tolstoyevski Tsuyasa wrote:

But like I mentioned before, I'm not certain if something like this system suggested could be implemented by CCP; as nice as it would be to have Blops Generation separate from Capitals, have 5 timers per pilot might be difficult to manage on the client.

Your thoughts, CCP?

I think its an interesting concept. One of my concerns about it is the additional complexity, 5 timers instead of one for players to keep track of?



why not give Blops a reduction bonus to fatigue? similar to what jump freighters have but not as much of a reduction?

also,

Why not lift jump bridge restriction on placement? if you have a pos and its in range you can drop one?

Taking that further, why not give sov bonus to jump bridge fatigue costs and a penalty to those in non sov.

Adding to the discussion could be jump bridges into low sec from null and vise versa.

Coupled with fatigue changes this would make for some interesting warfare dynamics

follow me on twit :   @viger1
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#176 - 2015-08-13 18:31:28 UTC
Aryth wrote:
If you do implement the capital mechanic try to add something that lets us clear fatigue in our capital. Giving players an out, even if cumbersome, is at least an out.


Lowsec?
NPC Nullsec?
Moving Capitals to/from WHs?

While almost everyone agrees that holding sov needs benefits, tying capital mechanics to having an existing capital is a poor choice. Attackers and sov aspirants need capital mobility too, otherwise there will be no one to play ball with, not to mention the aforementioned groups that such a change wholeheartedly ignores. Any/all of the reducing/clearing mechanics, echoing others, are just more tedium and nuance, when the numbers could just be toned down in the first place.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Tallardar
Doomheim
#177 - 2015-08-13 18:51:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tallardar
CCP Mimic wrote:
This is going to be a part of a wider discussion on communication and promoting more openness


What steps specifically are going to be made to better the communication practices by CCP Devs when speaking with the community, not just the CSM? This was an event promoted as a "discussion" but for a discussion to occur you need two participating parties, not one asking questions and the other being aloof or unwilling to be part of the conversation.

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Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#178 - 2015-08-13 19:16:36 UTC
Quote:
Some of the interesting suggestions that we'd heard and would like to see player opinions on -
Altering jump ranges
Altering jump fatigue curves
Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based
Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)
Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)
Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection
Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement
Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)
Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)
What does local-content mean to you?


We'd also love to hear your ideas, post away space friends.


Altering Jump Ranges: Possibly roll "travel mode" into high-slot modules that allow % increase in jump range, but nerf cargo/fuel bay/fleet hangar capacity. This would be literally to "move" the ship, rather than facilitate logistics (movement of modules/ships/minerals)

Altering Jump Fatigue Curve: I think the only good idea is to have a hard cap on max fatigue. Allowing up to a full month of JF is a bit over the top, the 1 week option seems better

From Char -> Ship: I think there are too many ways this could be meta'd for the worse.

Alternative FTL: Possibly this could be the opposite of current jump drive mechanics. Currently, you simply need a cyno to be able to jump, automatically. Once you initiate the jump, it happens instantly, then the cooldown lasts for a certain timeframe. A different version could be as follows:
Spend time "scanning" for suitable destination based on long range sub-space sci-fi something. (Star/planet/station can be a target). Spend time acquiring coordinates and "entering them in the computer." Spend time "spooling" the hyper drive, then spend time recharging the hyper drive.

Overall, more complexity for more movement options is probably not necessary, but there's my idea!

Sov should only affect fatigue in capital systems and systems with dedicated anti-fatigue modules, however, the mechanic should be an active one where the player is online and "engaging" the structure that reduces the fatigue. Passive is bad in this case.

Move-mode for capitals seems contrived. It should be modules, with fitting penalties and trade-offs, just like every other module

Making anti fatigue skills just add another "requirement" to the already long list of "required" skills. Modules are an idea, but i prefer distance mods over anti-fatigue mods. Drugs are a good choice also, but should have some pretty hefty side-effects, like reduce targeting range/resolution, decreased max targets, decreased capacitor regen, and decreased local tank effectiveness.

Cedric
Ben Ishikela
#179 - 2015-08-13 19:27:11 UTC
I see some issues. But dont get me wrong. Phoebe is one of the best things ever!
(and some ideas)

1) JumpFreighters are way too powerful. They drown local production. Also offer very little piracy content.
=> maybe removal or redesign. Just hard nerfbat!
(offtopic) with a change to industrial index (where we have 2 independent indexes for system AND region summed up) and supplier contracts => less jita focused industry

2) JumpFatigue on the next weekend is a hinderance. Maybe have a prompt when jumping to warn you, if you really wnat to jump because Fatigue is going to get above 5days.

3) JumpRange: (undecided)
3.1) On the one hand i understand, that someone wants to relocate his capital 40LY and needs several weeks for it.
=> A new drug that has effekts: infinite jumprange; penalty: no ability to warp, fatigue and cooldown will become cooldown of the drug, no capacitor regeneration.
=> So after ONE 40LY jump its time to log out and wait 5 days. After that its useable as normal again. Also JumpFatigue is cleared.
3.2) on the other hand its wonderful to witness these large moe ops where 20 titans+supers move though lowsec. Like a herd of Brontosaurs passing by. Its awesome. Even if i cant do anything against or with it. (besides trollish bumping). => Great for noobs that have never seen motherships.

5) JumpBridges: There will be POGates, right?.... so i dont know.
But i like the idea of a Titan-Bridge-Equivalent anchorable. Saves another afk-SuperAccount and is highly accessable in comparison. (a 10man corp can more easyly afford a must-have bridge to defend their space or get "local" content. and not have to buildt/buy a titan first. because that would need sov which a new corp doesnt have. and there we have the circle of need)

6)BLOPS. I never had a problem when using Stealthbombers and Bridges.
What about if mass affects accumulated jumpfatigue as a factor? (so JF(new)=JF(old)+mass(*balance)*LY*etc
=> nanocarriers = a thing? (is nidhoggur/hel lighter than the others?) ..... but mainly less of a problem for everything subcapital. after all, mass and power have a high correlation, right?

7) idea: What if jumping to the alliances capital (if in jumprange) does not add any jumpfatigue or significantly less? (maybe also reduction in cooldown?)
=>so guys in adjacend systems can jump home and immediately reship to move out with an allianceOP.
Also less JF for moving in your space.
=> no thread to power projection that is not local.

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.
Lu Ziffer
Balanced Unity
Goonswarm Federation
#180 - 2015-08-13 19:29:02 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:

  • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)
  • Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement

    • Lets go a step back and inspect EVE a bit .
    We have a reaction drive on grid (Reality),we have a warp drive which is bending space to move between grids (Star Trek) and we have jumpdrive which is basicly an artifcial wormhole between systems(Battlestar Galactica).
    The missing fourth would be a a hyperdrive Star Wars style were the ship moves into a dimension which allows FTL travel due to changes in how physics behave but it is not instant just a lot faster like warp 9.9 Star Trek style.
    Lets say we change the standard drive of a capitalship to such a hyperdrive and make the jumpdrive a backup entirely intended to be used in extraordinary circumstances.
    Here we get to point my second quote. Lets say a ship traveled 5ly in 10minutes in hyperspace using fuel depleting its capacitor but it was able to update its position constantly so it gets no "jump fatigue" . Another ship did the same travel using its jumpdrive and reached its position instantly but the sensors have to reestabilish its position in the universe as such it gets "jump fatigue" which limits its sensors and makes it incapable to do another jump for some time also as it just ripped space time it takes a structure damage.

    Basicly hyperdrive would be a option with one drawback, it takes time.
    Jumpdrive would have a few drawbacks the structure hit and as the sensors are already used for establishing its position a drawbak in locktime, tracking and anything remotely in contact with the sensor.

    This option gets rid of the jump fatigue problem as there is another option to travel between systems but it keeps the tactical option of instant travel if needed