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The Shrinking Sandbox - Eve by numbers

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2121 - 2015-07-15 12:49:14 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

People are leaving the game from PVE areas, high-sec being the largest, because CCP has neglected and ignored meaningful PVE content.


No, they're leaving because CCP functionally banned about five thousand of them a few months ago.


Quote:

Not since Apocrypha have we had PVE content focus, and when we did the numbers soared.


This is about as disingenuous a thing as I have ever heard come from someone who wasn't Infinity Ziona. Because apparently the freaking WORMHOLE expansion was "PvE content focus". Roll

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2122 - 2015-07-15 12:49:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelica Dreamstar
If you removed the hate and victim attitude, McAlt, you could see that removing protection means that people care more about their survival. It's the same mechanic with children. Grow them up in a too protected environment and they will have no clue how to look out for themselves. Or, better, the immune system of children. Protecting them from germs in the early age will make them more prone to illnesses and allergies, because their immune systems never got to learn about the possibly "enemies".

I don't know why people don't realise that an overly protective environment breeds victims and whiners who blindly obey authority, as we can see all day even in real life.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2123 - 2015-07-15 12:51:21 UTC
Anyhow, as usual this devolved into backandforth nonsense. Get some distance, children.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Jenshae Chiroptera
#2124 - 2015-07-15 12:54:15 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
100% accurate. PVP hardcores need to realize that they need PVE players, and PVE players need to realize that they need someone to destroy things to create demand.
I prefer all-round players to carebears.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2125 - 2015-07-15 12:54:22 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
but the reason PVPrs stay in the game more is the content is generated, upgraded and focused at them. If CCP put half as much effort into PVE (APOCRYPHA) they would be growing again.


Anyone else get a good laugh at the pathetic themepark mentality these two sentences show?


I did. He doesn't get it at all. We aren't talking PVP vs PVE. I'm a PVE player, more so that that marketing alt guy.

More attention is BAD for themepark style players in the opposite way that it's good for sandbox players, because they are the kinds of people who will take the inch you offer them and ask for a MILE 3 seconds later.

For years CCP did very little to update and upgrade PVE. When I started mission running in 2007, people had been running nthose missions for YEARS already. Now CCP is adding PVE stuff left and right over the last few years. Incursions (including recently revamped Scout sites, pve in wormholes (lately, pirate exploration in wormholes), Faction Warfare (when FW started, FW missions were a joke), Clone solderers in low sec belts, the SOE stuff, SOE chips dropping from Drone sites, Burner missions, the exploration mini game, Drifters, revamped NPC AI in regular pve content ('RIP Drones'), PVE enhancing Deployables and more.

End result? Not much. EVE was better off when CCP didn't waste time providing so much automated content, because siad automated content isn't enticing to PVPrs OR PVErs. EVE PVErs (except the forum whiners) are creatures of habit (I know i am), personally I'm running the same missions and anomalies today that were available in 2007 (rather than screwing with the 'new stuff' like Drifters and Burners and Clone tag droppers) because I like sandbox PVE that is really an engineering contest. I don't want to be told a Story, i won't to play space-lego with ships and mods, and the game already had that lol.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#2126 - 2015-07-15 12:58:13 UTC
And the reduction in sell orders in the market hubs is rather interesting, seems that the gameplay of CODE and Miniluv is winning, well played. Attack the industrialists who were already reeling from the impact to their margins from the buff to null sec, hit the pipes and focus on major industrialists and Miniluv did and its working.

Me and another long term player said it means more to say we won a game if you also kill the game too, so that no one else can come along and win it. Well played indeed...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2127 - 2015-07-15 13:02:06 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
100% accurate. PVP hardcores need to realize that they need PVE players, and PVE players need to realize that they need someone to destroy things to create demand.
I prefer all-round players to carebears.

Hey there is this **** again in your quote.

Reality:

PvE players only have chars not doing PvP, PvP players have chars doing PvE as well. Conclusion: getting rid of pure PvE players isn't a bad thing at all, because all bases are being covered by the rest anyway.

Pure PvE players are really silly believing PvPers only PvP. PvPers do PvE as well, which means they do more stuff than pure PvErs. It's not rocket science.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2128 - 2015-07-15 13:02:45 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Fozzie already said the drop in numbers were from Highsec...

How is this possible? The awox nerf promised tons of new players in highsec... I am confused...


And the old buff to exhumers. And anchor rigs. And being able to fit (tank) freighters. etc etc.

What the "if you just protect people" crowd doesn't ever understand is that this is a video game, and while people my complain about things, at the end of the day, a video game must be compelling. CCP (at the behest of these vocal 'protectionist' types) has been following the wrong path, adding pop ups and guides and safeties and crap. These things provide COMFORT, where as for a game to be compelling it has to induce (conquerable) STRESS.

This is why I always say to these types that their social justice quest to see people like CODE curtailed and diminished by CCP doesn't do anything to CODE, but nerfs the hell our of people like me, PVE minded players who don't want or need CCP hand holding.




Ganking is not the reason people are leaving the game from high-sec... it has been said a hundred times but yet you are again picking the wrong argument.

People are leaving the game from PVE areas, high-sec being the largest, because CCP has neglected and ignored meaningful PVE content. Not since Apocrypha have we had PVE content focus, and when we did the numbers soared.


CCP has neglected nothing, they've been stuffing the game with PVE content. That's been a mistake. Liek I said in the psot above, lots of us don't even USE the new PVE stuff.

Last night me and my buddy slammed through Angel Havens with 2 alts apace and got 2 escalations. Except for the OPE nerf in 2009, the 2 Angel naval Shipyards we did have been unchanged for a decade. We had fun, dodged a guy trying to scan us down, got some lot from the 1st one and OPE only from the second. Neither of us spent a single seconds in any of the new fangled whiper snapper PVE content CCP has added, we were doing DED conent born in 2005 lol.

Drifters, Burners, Ghost sites, new scout incursions, Clone tags yada yada yada. CCP has wasted their time with this crap and you want them to waste more. High Sec isn't quitting because of PVE, High sec PVErs are perfectly happy saving the same Damsel or shoot the same tagged Niarja frig millions of times.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2129 - 2015-07-15 13:05:14 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
And the reduction in sell orders in the market hubs is rather interesting, seems that the gameplay of CODE and Miniluv is winning, well played. Attack the industrialists who were already reeling from the impact to their margins from the buff to null sec, hit the pipes and focus on major industrialists and Miniluv did and its working.

Me and another long term player said it means more to say we won a game if you also kill the game too, so that no one else can come along and win it. Well played indeed...


Null Industry. I built my own Mach 3 weeks ago. I built another for PVP/home defense seeing as I'd only get 250 mil for the BPC if I sent it to sell in empire. I'm building my own FoF missile ammo for my ravens too. I never did this before, but now getting stuff from empire is a PAIN.

People were celebrating the Jump Changes, seems like high sec didn't realize who it's customers were while celebrating...
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#2130 - 2015-07-15 13:06:25 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

People are leaving the game from PVE areas, high-sec being the largest, because CCP has neglected and ignored meaningful PVE content.


No, they're leaving because CCP functionally banned about five thousand of them a few months ago.


Quote:

Not since Apocrypha have we had PVE content focus, and when we did the numbers soared.


This is about as disingenuous a thing as I have ever heard come from someone who wasn't Infinity Ziona. Because apparently the freaking WORMHOLE expansion was "PvE content focus". Roll



Ok, 5000... won't ask for a source because you don't have one. But sure, we will go with that. Where is the other 20k that disappeared?

You would never guess what else came out in Apocrypha that was far more important to carebears than just the WH space... read the patch notes, look at the market. Find out what started in 2009 that was never there before.

Again, I don't hate PVP, I do PVP. I want those who also do PVP to stop hating the carebear. We need each other, the game needs balance. This isn't a mutually exclusive system, there needs to be all kinds of players to make this game work. So stop crapping on entire forms of gameplay in the name of being a badass.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#2131 - 2015-07-15 13:07:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Jenn aSide wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Fozzie already said the drop in numbers were from Highsec...

How is this possible? The awox nerf promised tons of new players in highsec... I am confused...


And the old buff to exhumers. And anchor rigs. And being able to fit (tank) freighters. etc etc.

What the "if you just protect people" crowd doesn't ever understand is that this is a video game, and while people my complain about things, at the end of the day, a video game must be compelling. CCP (at the behest of these vocal 'protectionist' types) has been following the wrong path, adding pop ups and guides and safeties and crap. These things provide COMFORT, where as for a game to be compelling it has to induce (conquerable) STRESS.

This is why I always say to these types that their social justice quest to see people like CODE curtailed and diminished by CCP doesn't do anything to CODE, but nerfs the hell our of people like me, PVE minded players who don't want or need CCP hand holding.




Ganking is not the reason people are leaving the game from high-sec... it has been said a hundred times but yet you are again picking the wrong argument.

People are leaving the game from PVE areas, high-sec being the largest, because CCP has neglected and ignored meaningful PVE content. Not since Apocrypha have we had PVE content focus, and when we did the numbers soared.


CCP has neglected nothing, they've been stuffing the game with PVE content. That's been a mistake. Liek I said in the psot above, lots of us don't even USE the new PVE stuff.

Last night me and my buddy slammed through Angel Havens with 2 alts apace and got 2 escalations. Except for the OPE nerf in 2009, the 2 Angel naval Shipyards we did have been unchanged for a decade. We had fun, dodged a guy trying to scan us down, got some lot from the 1st one and OPE only from the second. Neither of us spent a single seconds in any of the new fangled whiper snapper PVE content CCP has added, we were doing DED conent born in 2005 lol.

Drifters, Burners, Ghost sites, new scout incursions, Clone tags yada yada yada. CCP has wasted their time with this crap and you want them to waste more. High Sec isn't quitting because of PVE, High sec PVErs are perfectly happy saving the same Damsel or shoot the same tagged Niarja frig millions of times.


Some of my guys did their third 8/10 in a row that only dropped an overseers and nothing else, great content...

EDIT: Was told now that it was 4 in a row.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#2132 - 2015-07-15 13:08:24 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
And the reduction in sell orders in the market hubs is rather interesting, seems that the gameplay of CODE and Miniluv is winning, well played. Attack the industrialists who were already reeling from the impact to their margins from the buff to null sec, hit the pipes and focus on major industrialists and Miniluv did and its working.

Me and another long term player said it means more to say we won a game if you also kill the game too, so that no one else can come along and win it. Well played indeed...


Null Industry. I built my own Mach 3 weeks ago. I built another for PVP/home defense seeing as I'd only get 250 mil for the BPC if I sent it to sell in empire. I'm building my own FoF missile ammo for my ravens too. I never did this before, but now getting stuff from empire is a PAIN.

People were celebrating the Jump Changes, seems like high sec didn't realize who it's customers were while celebrating...


Dracvlad is in awe of your industrial brilliance, and hopes that you will soon replace people that are no longer producing stuff and selling them in hisec., Jenn is on the case we are saved...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2133 - 2015-07-15 13:09:07 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
This is about as disingenuous a thing as I have ever heard come from someone who wasn't Infinity Ziona. Because apparently the freaking WORMHOLE expansion was "PvE content focus". Roll

Well, it kinda wasn't PvP centered either. It provided new environment, reasons to fly in space, it brought new farmlands, ways to navigate New Eden regardless of what you are up to, it created segment of industry... The difference with FW / sov / whatever expansions is that it wasn't trying to tell anyone to activate modules on other players' stuff specifically, it just provided an environment where it happens naturally. As for "PvE focus"... While probably overstatement, a lot of traditional PvE content was created, lot more than in many other updates. One could say that Apocrypha was among, if not the closest to "PvE focused" updates.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2134 - 2015-07-15 13:10:51 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:


I don't know why people don't realise that an overly protective environment breeds victims and whiners who blindly obey authority, as we can see all day even in real life.


Grrr CCP why can't we talk politics up in this camp grrrrr!!! Twisted I would have so much fun giving real world examples.

But yea, keeping it EVE, funny how the more CCP made the game safe and added PVE, the less PVErs in high sec want to play.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2135 - 2015-07-15 13:12:23 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


Some of my guys did their third 8/10 in a row that only dropped an overseers and nothing else, great content...


This demonstrates your mentality, you expect something every time. One of those 10/10s we did last night dropped nothing but OPE, we still had fun.

The problem is your mentality, not the game.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#2136 - 2015-07-15 13:13:02 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:


I don't know why people don't realise that an overly protective environment breeds victims and whiners who blindly obey authority, as we can see all day even in real life.


Grrr CCP why can't we talk politics up in this camp grrrrr!!! Twisted I would have so much fun giving real world examples.

But yea, keeping it EVE, funny how the more CCP made the game safe and added PVE, the less PVErs in high sec want to play.


Hisec is safe, really? CODE as an alliance killed the most stuff in the game and it was all in hisec!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#2137 - 2015-07-15 13:14:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Some of my guys did their third 8/10 in a row that only dropped an overseers and nothing else, great content...


This demonstrates your mentality, you expect something every time. One of those 10/10s we did last night dropped nothing but OPE, we still had fun.

The problem is your mentality, not the game.


Well great content, very worth their while doing that, dodging BLOP's and the like, risk and reward, ho hum...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2138 - 2015-07-15 13:15:40 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

Again, I don't hate PVP, I do PVP. I want those who also do PVP to stop hating the carebear.


That ship sailed a while ago.


Quote:

We need each other, the game needs balance.


Funny thing about capitalism. We don't need carebears at all(and I don't mean we don't need PvE players, there is a difference between a PvE player and a carebear. Jenn is a PvE player, if you want an example. The operative word is player). If they ever get fed up enough of the obvious consequences of the choices they made, let them quit.

If enough of them ever quit that it makes any kind of impact in the market, the opportunity for profit kicks in and it balances itself out. That's how we can lose so very many ISBoxers, and despite the trumpeting about how ships would triple in price, we're half a year in and that flat out hasn't happened.


Quote:
So stop crapping on entire forms of gameplay


The second I stop seeing people making "delete non consensual PvP" posts on this forum, sure.

Nah, you know what? Not even then.

They went too far years ago, now they get to pay it back in tears. If you want anything more than derision from me, you need to get a time machine and stop those maladjusted freaks from destroying Ultima Online. (this is a pattern you see, they're like locusts. They move in to a game, demand it change to suit them, it changes, the game dies because of it, and they move on)

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2139 - 2015-07-15 13:16:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Dracvlad wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
And the reduction in sell orders in the market hubs is rather interesting, seems that the gameplay of CODE and Miniluv is winning, well played. Attack the industrialists who were already reeling from the impact to their margins from the buff to null sec, hit the pipes and focus on major industrialists and Miniluv did and its working.

Me and another long term player said it means more to say we won a game if you also kill the game too, so that no one else can come along and win it. Well played indeed...


Null Industry. I built my own Mach 3 weeks ago. I built another for PVP/home defense seeing as I'd only get 250 mil for the BPC if I sent it to sell in empire. I'm building my own FoF missile ammo for my ravens too. I never did this before, but now getting stuff from empire is a PAIN.

People were celebrating the Jump Changes, seems like high sec didn't realize who it's customers were while celebrating...


Dracvlad is in awe of your industrial brilliance, and hopes that you will soon replace people that are no longer producing stuff and selling them in hisec., Jenn is on the case we are saved...


"My" industrial brilliance? I have industry 1 lol.

And I'm not CCP, I didn't nerf jump drives. I used to buy everything from empire, now I can't.

While you are moaning about things and hiding from "lame people", I'm rolling this Swag Boat in wicked creek, avoiding neutrals and making isk (i'm sorry, "Dank Isk", sorry Reddit Bros for not getting that right Big smile ).
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2140 - 2015-07-15 13:23:02 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

While you are moaning about things and hiding from "lame people", I'm rolling this Swag Boat in wicked creek, avoiding neutrals and making isk (i'm sorry, "Dank Isk", sorry Reddit Bros for not getting that right Big smile ).


If you want to get your reddit slang right, you need to make Space Juden references, homie.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.