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[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#61 - 2015-06-22 16:12:54 UTC
some good changes, but i still think droneboats have a big slot advantage over ships needing turrets/hardpoints, so please consider reducing slots on all droneboats to -3 slots, guristas should also follow the - slots which they do not atm for some reason...

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#62 - 2015-06-22 16:12:55 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
CCP Fozzie - 5:47PM : PVP damage per month leader per class: T1 Frigate - Tristan, Pirate Frigate - Worm, T1 Cruiser - Vexor, Navy Cruiser - VNI, Pirate Cruiser - Gila, T2 Cruiser - Ishtar, T1 Battleship - Dominix

http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png


Drone Cruisers Online. Smile

See sig.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
battle Barviainen
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#63 - 2015-06-22 16:13:19 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Bunka en Daire wrote:
Why u just dont delete drone boats from game???
Even better u can mix up vexor and ishtar in one ship, so no more efforts for nerfing.

Or better why u just do not BUFF other ships, so u must nerf all drone boats, because of tiiiiit BLOBERS?


Calm down, dron user. Smile

DDAs were & still are OP, considering that the base drone attributes were already competitive prior to their introduction.

Altrue wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.


I don't think people are asking for Ishtars to be unable to use sentries.

Most people are asking for the removal of sentries bonuses on them. You know, the +25% damage, AND the +25% hitpoints, AND the +25% tracking, AND the +25% optimal.

They would still be able to use sentries, but their stats would be more in-line with their actual balanced state.


Double dron bonuses everyday.

On top of a battleship weapons system on a cruiser hull with t2 resists.

Gobbi pls


the DDA nerf is warranted yes, but the mid + lowslot is just plain stupid, remove the sentry's keep the speed + pwg nerf and it would pretty much kill it's constant fleet use. the mid slot removal will also kill it's ability to run complexes and other solo activty's
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2015-06-22 16:13:49 UTC
Canon Makanen wrote:
Because now it is almost impossible to use shield tank.

That is the point. Shield Ishtar = OP Ishtar.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#65 - 2015-06-22 16:15:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
More data for the cri-ers - http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1

PvP damage done by ship class, segmented by weapons type. Smile

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Adrien Venportt
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2015-06-22 16:15:42 UTC
Dez Affinity wrote:
You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results.


Not Empty Quoting.
Alexander McKeon
Perkone
Caldari State
#67 - 2015-06-22 16:16:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander McKeon
CCP Rise wrote:
This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.
And every single one of those hulls gets a generic bonus applying to all drone types, EXCEPT the Ishtar. It is also notable that only the VNI & Ishtar have what could be called a 'projection' bonus, though the VNI just gets drones to you faster. Sentries on sub-battleship hulls are fine. Sentries with bonused optimal range and tracking on those hull sizes are not balanced, and you won't find that on any of the drone boats you mentioned save this one.

Vexor: +50% damage & HP
Myrmidon: +50% damage & HP
Eos: +50% Damage & HP
Tristan: +50% HP & Tracking speed (Only has bandwidth for a flight of lights, two mediums, or one heavy)
VNI: +50% Drone HP/damage, +25% Max Velocity & Tracking

Ishtar: +25% Sentry HP & Damage, +50% HP/Damage other drones, +37.5% Heavy Drone max velocity & tracking
+25% Sentry drone optimal range & tracking speed, +25km to drone operation range.

Only one of these drone ships has a bonus to damage projection (which is important for sentries) and gets a bonus to drone control range, requiring fewer fitting compromises in order to kill a target 100km away. No other ship listed here can sit at such a range from their target while making as few fitting compromises as the Ishtar to get their drones working so far away, nor has the drone bandwidth / bay to deploy three full flights of sentries.

The Ishtar is uniquely able amongst sub-battleship hulls to deploy sentry drones which are effective at long engagement ranges, control them from such a range, and carry enough drones to be effective over a sustained engagement. These things are why the Ishtar is broken. Remove the sentry application bonuses, keep the sentry DPS buff at +25%, and you'll find a much more balanced hull.
Lt Shard
Team Pizza
Good at this Game
#68 - 2015-06-22 16:16:22 UTC
I think the issue with the ishtar is its bonuses, not fitting/slots/modules

that sentry tracking/range is ridiggalus
Hullender
Biafra' State
#69 - 2015-06-22 16:16:29 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Dez Affinity wrote:
You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results.


Whack an Ishtar.

Better just delete it from the game, problem solved.
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#70 - 2015-06-22 16:16:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
What the hell foozie, you punish all drone ships because of the ishtar's garbage?

god damnit, can you not punish other ships because one is OP, this is the same thing you did to rail ships because eagles and slippery pete tengus did their thing.

Another thing, you realize the ishtar has the same capacitor regeneration rate as the zealot despite the ishtar having little use for all that capacitor which is why those 100mn AB fits were kiting the hell out of people.

At least now with -1 mid and +1 low armor fits will be favored heavily.

You wanna fix the ishtar? its not even in its weapon systems. You have to stop people from doing super kitey 100mn shield fits like you have now. You then reduce the capacitor recharge time because it never used or needed all that capacitor since it has no capacitor bearing weapon systems. Reduce CPU to help reduce those kitey shield fits. You have the right idea already with the +1 low because now people will favor armor, thus reducing overall damage. The entire guise of the current ishtar fleets has been favoring hyper kitey shield doctrines that promote launch and leave tactics. Warp in, everyone drop sentries or just drones for that matter, everyone anchor up, props on and lets fly around while the drones do all the work. The only real hard counters I've seen to ishtars have been alpha fits that are highly resistant to the sentry alpha. Cruise missile typhoons and ravens seem to be very effective in that regard but otherwise those fleets have another name of "how to not get a fight, Press F to win""

But the DDA nerf affects ALL drone ships, gilas, prophecies, dominix, and carriers all suffer because of the ishtar's OP-ness.

People keep screaming remove sentries from the ishtar and accompanying ships but I don't think that solves the issue of them being kitey little untouchable bastards.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#71 - 2015-06-22 16:16:49 UTC
How to fix the ishtar.

Remove sentry drones from cruiser hulls.

Ishtar is now fixed.
Jay Amazingness
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#72 - 2015-06-22 16:16:57 UTC
finally ccp it only took you 2 years now fix tengus pls

CEO of serious space alliance I too am gay, a member of the Memeperium
Jay Amazingness
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#73 - 2015-06-22 16:17:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jay Amazingness
baltec1 wrote:
How to fix the ishtar.

Remove sentry drones from cruiser hulls.

Ishtar is now fixed.


BATTLE SHIP LEVEL WEAPONS ON A CRUISER

there is something a little wrong there don't you think?

These changes won't really do much I mean the ishtar will still be used as much just people will now armor tank it, and use those dank ewar slosts. I would like to see the ishtar have a similar bonus to the gila allow it to use some mediums and do good damage with them, the ishtar would have the t2 resists over the gila aswell as the hull cost, maybe limit the band width to 100 instead of 125, this also allows the domi to get a little bit of a buff too.

CEO of serious space alliance I too am gay, a member of the Memeperium
Mostlyharmlesss
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2015-06-22 16:19:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Mostlyharmlesss
Rip carrier ratting with heavy drones.

I assume you're going to fix that with the upcoming capital ships revamp, right?

Follow me on Twitter for the latest regarding GoonSwarm Federation and our recruitment drives!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#75 - 2015-06-22 16:19:31 UTC
Jay Amazingness wrote:


BATTLE SHIP LEVEL WEAPONS ON A CRUISER

there is something a little wrong there don't you think?


And to think they took away my ability to fit a single Dreadnought blaster to my megaStraight
Hullender
Biafra' State
#76 - 2015-06-22 16:20:46 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
Mind **** wrote:
don't make ships better, just make them worse = balancing a'la CCP

gg


Because this causes power-creep, instead of balancing drones and the Ishtar, if you boost every single other thing, you then have even more balancing problems (very like to have a lot of overtuned/undertuned with the new buff numbers when you change so much stuff) then you have existing content like PVE getting easier due to more powerful player ships.

Because making ships unfun to fly is good for the game and PVE is fun.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#77 - 2015-06-22 16:21:28 UTC
how about 10% damage per level and a falloff or tracking bonus for the tempest instead. rupture could do with the same kind of treatment btw (or you could fix projectiles lol).
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#78 - 2015-06-22 16:21:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Lt Shard wrote:
I think the issue with the ishtar is its bonuses, not fitting/slots/modules

that sentry tracking/range is ridiggalus


Removing the Optimal range part of the double Optimal + Tracking double bonus would help mitigate things.

CCP Rise?


Jay Amazingness wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
How to fix the ishtar.

Remove sentry drones from cruiser hulls.

Ishtar is now fixed.


BATTLE SHIP LEVEL WEAPONS ON A CRUISER

there is something a little wrong there don't you think?


You could be right. Maybe.

Perhaps.

No one could see it coming.

It's nbd - Odyssey 1.1 Sept 2013.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#79 - 2015-06-22 16:23:01 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
More data for the cri-ers - http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1

PvP damage done by ship class, segmented by weapons type. Smile



Source?

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Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2015-06-22 16:23:30 UTC
DDA nerf hits every drone based ship, even those that are not overpowered in relation to their cost...I do not see how that is balanced.

Just nerf the ishtar in a way that puts her in line.

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