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[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

First post First post First post
Author
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#801 - 2015-07-14 06:14:10 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
If it costs twice, it means it takes lot more general effort to make the item. Should the item be better if it takes a lot more effort to acquire one?

In ideal condition, yes, but It's not that simple.
What we have:
SNI - around 472 mil
Rattle - around 350 mil
Players driven market.

My point exactly.
Worth noting that faction stuff is arguably harder to come by if you look at massive LP/tag costs of such items and the fact that activities you must do for LP are mostly worth doing for LP and not much else. So they are your main, sometimes only product you aren't going to give away for cheap. Prices on those items are only where they are because CCP introduced huge LP generators some time in the past. BPC drops, however, are basically nice bonus for activities that are already more or less worth doing without even considering those drops.

In a sense, making a Rattle is less of an effort than making a SNI if you consider that a lot of issues associated with acquiring pirate ships are resolved anyway for reasons other than, well, farming them (ratting, sov holding, organizing logistics and infrastructure - you need them anyway if you live where you do), so for someone who "makes" BPCs they can as well be considered almost "free".

Hence the prices, fully representative of individual effort required to be spent specifically on acquiring those items and nothing else. Add not negligible drop rate and here you go.

Frostys Virpio wrote:
They could just split the apple in 2 if they want to go slow like removing either the tracking OR the optimal. Why are sentry the only weapon system where this kind of bonus exist anyway?

Apocalypse would like to remind the respectable audience of its existence. It also points out that it lacks damage bonus, however.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#802 - 2015-07-14 14:46:19 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:

Apocalypse would like to remind the respectable audience of its existence. It also points out that it lacks damage bonus, however.


That's 2 bonus slot from your hull being taken for those 2 stats. As a cost for this, it get's no damage, rof, armor resist, cap use, ... bonus after those 2 are given. The Ishtar gets it from a single bonus slot.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#803 - 2015-08-07 20:51:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
CCP Rise wrote:
We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level.

So tempest now does more damage than vargur, tempest fleet issue and Machariel

Shocked
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#804 - 2015-08-10 11:21:37 UTC
I don't understand what is wrong with you devs. You base your decisions on which ships to nerf on what is the most popular? That is either lazy or just plain dumb. If a ship is not over powered then why nerf it just because it's popular?

I've been flying the domi for years and it's never been the best at anything. For everything that I do with that ship there is some other ship that does it better. I like the versitility of the ship as it can do most things decently and I am lazy and like how drones don't require a whole bunch of micromanaging. I think laziness on the part of players figures more into why the dominix is so popular and not so much it being overpowered.

I'm just not sure what business model works around figuring out what your customers like and then finding a way to make that more attractive. In eve anyone can fly any ship so there is no need to make all ships equal. Your attempts at balance only bring homogenization. I think you are going about the future path of this game all wrong and you are turning it more and more into WoW every day.

I left WoW for a reason and if you guys keep down the balance path that you are on then I'll wind up leaving this game for the exact same reason.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#805 - 2015-08-10 12:19:45 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
If a ship is not over powered then why nerf it just because it's popular?


Thank god then that the ishtar was totally broken.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#806 - 2015-08-11 00:35:42 UTC
afkalt wrote:
ergherhdfgh wrote:
If a ship is not over powered then why nerf it just because it's popular?


Thank god then that the ishtar was totally broken.


That is your opinion. The devs have posted no facts that I have seen as justification for nerfing the ishtar other than it's popularity. As a person who didn't really fly them I can't speak from experience on the ishtar it's self and I am not commenting on if it needed to be nerfed or not since I did not fly it before and I do not fly it now and I've not even spent any time with it in EFT to know the numbers. Also I'm not a PvPer. Also you'd have a hard time convincing me any ship was broken when anyone can fly any ship. If the ship is so much better than every other ship then fly it.

But again none of the above has anything to do with my main point. My main point is that all drone boats are getting nerfed due to the Ishtar. Also the only justification that is given is the fact that the ishtar and the Domi are very popular. I am saying that the fact that a ship is popular is not proof that it is over powered. It is just proof that people like it. Maybe they like it because it's over powered maybe they like it because it looks nice maybe they like it because it's easy to fly and they are lazy.

I fly the domi all the time. I started flying the domi when drone dps was just super easy. Now drones take a little more management but I'm used to drones and it's the style that I like. The domi is out dpsed by most other Battleships. It has no tank bonus so it's tank I don't think is over powered however it's versatile in that it can have a decent tank for all 4 damage types. You pretty much have to use sentries in PvE to put any acceptable amount of damage on your targets which means that you are stuck in one spot. Yes you can use any damage type but your range is tied to your drone choice so you can't do therm at long ranges for example.

I flew the Domi before drone damage mods even existed so I'll probably still fly it after the nerf. I'm not crying that CCP is nerfing my favorite ship into unusability. All that I am saying is that the fact that a ship is popular is not a good reason to nerf it. You can nerf a popular ship I'm just saying give some justification other than "everyone is flying it" especially when it comes to a ship like the domi which up until recently was the only of the 12 T1 Battleships which was a drone boat and even now there is only 2 of the 12. ( TBH I've never even looked at the Geddon since it's been changed.)

anyway that's my rant and I just wanted to add that "the ishtar was totally broken" means nothing without some facts or context of some sort.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Kibitt Kallinikov
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#807 - 2015-08-11 04:42:53 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:

That is your opinion. The devs have posted no facts that I have seen as justification for nerfing the ishtar other than it's popularity.


You seem to forget that devs don't play out thousands of players attacking each other with their doctrines, and therefore can only use the actual playerbase's actions as a measurement of the potency of their available options. In this case, Ishtars had been very dominant. The proof is in the story's telling, there need be no more.

ergherhdfgh wrote:

Also I'm not a PvPer. Also you'd have a hard time convincing me any ship was broken when anyone can fly any ship. If the ship is so much better than every other ship then fly it.


Here you defeat your own logic, agreeing with what I said about what you reduce down to a popularity statistic that you easily dismiss.

ergherhdfgh wrote:

My main point is that all drone boats are getting nerfed due to the Ishtar. Also the only justification that is given is the fact that the ishtar and the Domi are very popular. I am saying that the fact that a ship is popular is not proof that it is over powered. It is just proof that people like it. Maybe they like it because it's over powered maybe they like it because it looks nice maybe they like it because it's easy to fly and they are lazy.


So if a weapon system that projects damage better than other weapon systems with no fitting cost, care for tracking, is resistant to TD/damp/ECM, can select damage type, AND pumps out more DPS than its competition, I guess drone boats sound pretty balanced to you. CCP reduced their power because of this, but many would argue that drone control range shouldn't be purely SP based, that it should be shorter on smaller ships and longer on larger ships.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#808 - 2015-08-11 07:25:36 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:


That is your opinion. The devs have posted no facts that I have seen as justification for nerfing the ishtar other than it's popularity. As a person who didn't really fly them I can't speak from experience on the ishtar it's self and I am not commenting on if it needed to be nerfed or not since I did not fly it before and I do not fly it now and I've not even spent any time with it in EFT to know the numbers. Also I'm not a PvPer. Also you'd have a hard time convincing me any ship was broken when anyone can fly any ship. If the ship is so much better than every other ship then fly it.

But again none of the above has anything to do with my main point. My main point is that all drone boats are getting nerfed due to the Ishtar. Also the only justification that is given is the fact that the ishtar and the Domi are very popular. I am saying that the fact that a ship is popular is not proof that it is over powered. It is just proof that people like it. Maybe they like it because it's over powered maybe they like it because it looks nice maybe they like it because it's easy to fly and they are lazy.

I fly the domi all the time. I started flying the domi when drone dps was just super easy. Now drones take a little more management but I'm used to drones and it's the style that I like. The domi is out dpsed by most other Battleships. It has no tank bonus so it's tank I don't think is over powered however it's versatile in that it can have a decent tank for all 4 damage types. You pretty much have to use sentries in PvE to put any acceptable amount of damage on your targets which means that you are stuck in one spot. Yes you can use any damage type but your range is tied to your drone choice so you can't do therm at long ranges for example.

I flew the Domi before drone damage mods even existed so I'll probably still fly it after the nerf. I'm not crying that CCP is nerfing my favorite ship into unusability. All that I am saying is that the fact that a ship is popular is not a good reason to nerf it. You can nerf a popular ship I'm just saying give some justification other than "everyone is flying it" especially when it comes to a ship like the domi which up until recently was the only of the 12 T1 Battleships which was a drone boat and even now there is only 2 of the 12. ( TBH I've never even looked at the Geddon since it's been changed.)

anyway that's my rant and I just wanted to add that "the ishtar was totally broken" means nothing without some facts or context of some sort.



Next time you go off ranting, trying reading TFThread first.


How many times do I need to quote myself in the same frikken thread?!?!?!??!?!??!


afkalt wrote:

How many times do I need to quote myself in the same frikken thread?!?!?!??!?!??!
afkalt wrote:
How many times do I need to quote myself in the same frikken thread?!?!?!??!?!??!


afkalt wrote:
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
Why is the DDA getting nerfed? Nerf the hulls, not the module. Other drone boats like the Dragoon just got nerfed for no reason.



THIS IS WHY





IT
IS
NOT
ONE
SHIP

SAVVY?
Olo Amera
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#809 - 2015-08-12 14:48:01 UTC
People still use sentries in PVE? Mine were replaced with Geckos awhile ago
swaatymec baaaatch
Doomheim
#810 - 2015-08-18 12:31:35 UTC
hi sorry to bug can I ask if you can add a thing where I can name my drones ? its so dam hard flying with 5 different drones just so I can keep them from eating each other .

also little side note not as important as naming drones , with all the drone nerfing and such going on are you looking into other options for us drone users ? for example if you take drones and remove the part where they are our primary weapon why not change and add drones types that will rather see us using guns or them rock trowing monkeys for dps and drones for support only ?
Starrakatt
Celtic Anarchy
Dead Terrorists
#811 - 2015-08-18 14:06:00 UTC
swaatymec baaaatch wrote:
hi sorry to bug can I ask if you can add a thing where I can name my drones ? its so dam hard flying with 5 different drones just so I can keep them from eating each other .

also little side note not as important as naming drones , with all the drone nerfing and such going on are you looking into other options for us drone users ? for example if you take drones and remove the part where they are our primary weapon why not change and add drones types that will rather see us using guns or them rock trowing monkeys for dps and drones for support only ?

It is called balance.

Even after the 'nerf' drone boats are still the most used and popular ships in EVE.

Stop complaining, they are still pretty good.
Fibro Optic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#812 - 2015-08-24 11:48:03 UTC
Cr Turist wrote:
Love the tempest buff.

Ishtar needs to not be able to use battle ship weapons. that is its main issue unless you plan to let the vaga use battleship guns.

for god sakes stop nerfing supers! come out with the capital changes and be done with it stop nickle and diming supers just cash the check.



The Ishtar does not Use Battleship Weapons .......
They use Medium Hybrid Cruiser size Guns and Drones.
However, If By saying Battleship weapons, you are talking about Heavy Drones and Sentry Drones, even the Stratios, Navy Vexor and Vexor can use Sentry, Heavy Drones and Medium Drones.
So i Do not get what you mean by saying "Ishtar needs to not be able to use battle ship weapons"
Fibro Optic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#813 - 2015-08-24 11:54:05 UTC
swaatymec baaaatch wrote:
hi sorry to bug can I ask if you can add a thing where I can name my drones ? its so dam hard flying with 5 different drones just so I can keep them from eating each other .

also little side note not as important as naming drones , with all the drone nerfing and such going on are you looking into other options for us drone users ? for example if you take drones and remove the part where they are our primary weapon why not change and add drones types that will rather see us using guns or them rock trowing monkeys for dps and drones for support only ?



You CAN Name your drones (Kind Of)
If you right click on a type of drone in the drone Bay, you can ADD To New Group, and give that Group a Name.
Then drag the rest of that type of drone into the group with it.

I have a Group in my Dominix Named "The Dream Team",
That group contains 2x Geko's, 2x T2 Hammerheads and 1x T2 Hobgoblin.

Hope this helps you out.
HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
#814 - 2015-09-07 19:26:31 UTC
Are there any plans to increase the RoF for the Tempest Fleet Issue as well?

It seems to be a passive nerf to a special ship.... 5 % RoF with the same amount of turret hard points like the T1 version.