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[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

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Author
Dirk Morbho
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2015-06-22 15:58:57 UTC
Came expecting removal of Sentries from Ishtars.

Left empty-handed.

Shocked
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#42 - 2015-06-22 15:59:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Terra Chrall
Altrue wrote:
Meh.

I was expecting a removal of sentries bonuses from the Ishtar, just saying. You're going in the nice direction but you're just chipping away little bits here and there at the Ishtar without making substantial changes.

A slower Ishtar isn't any less broken and is less fun to fly.
And you are nerfing its damage in the process by penalizing every single ship in the class. Were they really all OP?
Lol

First, off chipping away at a strong ship is great way to balance things. It does not provide immediate resolution to the problem but it is a better approach to balance then big sweeping changes that break a ship. Small changes have cumulative effects, and not over nerfing and thus crippling one of the most flown ships is a good way to keep customers happy.

Yes drone boats are leaders in almost every category. A small nerf to them across the board is not unexpected, and I am a drone boat pilot. I will miss the DPS I am losing on my Worm, Gila, VNI, Rattlesnake, Dominix, and my Ishtar. But I was drawn to these ships for various reasons including they were very good dps ships with good survivability. Thankfully the Gurista ships caused me to also train missiles and those are now seeing a positive boost. Though for all practical purposes I won't be using the new missile mods on my Worm or Gila. So they take a net nerf, which for the power they had, is not game breaking.

I'd rather keep all the power of the DDA and just have my Ishtar nerfed to satisfy the masses, but once the Ishtar is fixed, people will complain even more about the other drone boats that are PvE leaders and still very strong in PvP. This proactive DDA nerf helps bring all those ships down a small amount, and hopefully will be enough so spare them any other nerf.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#43 - 2015-06-22 16:00:49 UTC
While you are at it, could you increase the missile damage bonus on the Rattlesnake by a tad so the offset isn't so bad please? Thank you!

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2015-06-22 16:01:57 UTC
Honestly, I'd let the slot change pan out a bit before nerfing DDA.

I really think the slot change might be enough.
Jason Baros
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2015-06-22 16:02:17 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Dez Affinity wrote:
You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results.


Whack an Ishtar. + every other ship that equips DDA's



FTFY

But seriously if you want to nerf the Ishtars you need to do something about their capability of using sentries. Ishtars dropping heavies in a big fleet fight is not OP and is very easily to deal with. Ishtars dropping sentries means the ishtars just stay 100Km from their prey and destroy it as long as their sentries are withing range.

Please stop balancing the game with a seldge hammer and start looking at what causes ships to be OP. The medium rail nerf hit not only tengus but EVERY single cruiser that uses hybrids.
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#46 - 2015-06-22 16:03:41 UTC
Dirk Morbho wrote:
Came expecting removal of Sentries from Ishtars.

Left empty-handed.

Shocked

You had very misguided hopes. Removal of Sentries from any drone ship removes that ships ability for ranged combat. I don't expect to see Sentries removed from any drone ship until a replacement to them is also introduced.
battle Barviainen
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2015-06-22 16:05:03 UTC
Removing the midslot will not make it realy that less used, you need to remove the sentry's from the ishtar and let it keep the midslot and let it keep the speed + pwg nerf
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#48 - 2015-06-22 16:05:07 UTC
+1 Rise.

-1 midslot is going to impact the dominant shield Ishtar significantly. I imagine the hamsters are also rejoicing.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#49 - 2015-06-22 16:05:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Xaxaxa.

Ishtar still not fixed. Smile

Dirk Morbho wrote:
Came expecting removal of Sentries from Ishtars.

Left empty-handed.

Shocked


Yeah, it's nbd that even the Eagle can't reach those DPS levels at that kind of range.
NinjaTurtle
THIGH GUYS
#50 - 2015-06-22 16:06:24 UTC
just gunna take stabs at the ishtar till you figure it out huh lol
even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#51 - 2015-06-22 16:06:51 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

First of all, the Ishtar.
  • -1 mid slot, +1 low slot
  • This is something that some of us were suggesting from the first set of balance changes of the Ishtar. Glad to see if finally happened. +1
    CCP Rise wrote:

    Next up, Drone Damage Amplifiers

    Drone Damage Amplifier I - 15% (was 16%)
    Drone Damage Amplifier II - 20.5% (was 23%)

    Dread Guristas Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)
    Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)
    Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)
    Sentient Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)

    Unit D-34343's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 24.5% (was (26.5%)
    Unit F-435454's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.15% (was 27.15%)
    Unit P-343554's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.8% (was 27.8%)
    Unit W-634's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 26.5% (was 28.5%)

    Knee jerking reaction was rage, but I calmed down a little bit and looking at it, it is not that bad and drone ships are in a powerful position and this will not hurt them all too much so a reluctant +1 for this also.

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

    Igor Nappi
    Doomheim
    #52 - 2015-06-22 16:07:10 UTC
    I think the DDA nerf is way overdue. Better late than never, though.

    Furthermore, I think that links must be removed from the game.

    Altrue
    Exploration Frontier inc
    Tactical-Retreat
    #53 - 2015-06-22 16:08:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
    CCP Rise wrote:
    This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.


    I don't think people are asking for Ishtars to be unable to use sentries.

    Most people are asking for the removal of sentries bonuses on them. You know, the +25% damage, AND the +25% hitpoints, AND the +25% tracking, AND the +25% optimal.

    They would still be able to use sentries, but their stats would be more in-line with their actual balanced state.

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    Iroquoiss Pliskin
    9B30FF Labs
    #54 - 2015-06-22 16:08:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
    Bunka en Daire wrote:
    Why u just dont delete drone boats from game???
    Even better u can mix up vexor and ishtar in one ship, so no more efforts for nerfing.

    Or better why u just do not BUFF other ships, so u must nerf all drone boats, because of tiiiiit BLOBERS?


    Calm down, dron user. Smile

    DDAs were & still are OP, considering that the base drone attributes were already competitive prior to their introduction.

    Altrue wrote:
    CCP Rise wrote:
    This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.


    I don't think people are asking for Ishtars to be unable to use sentries.

    Most people are asking for the removal of sentries bonuses on them. You know, the +25% damage, AND the +25% hitpoints, AND the +25% tracking, AND the +25% optimal.

    They would still be able to use sentries, but their stats would be more in-line with their actual balanced state.


    Double dron bonuses everyday.

    On top of a battleship weapons system on a cruiser hull with t2 resists.

    Gobbi pls
    l0rd carlos
    New Order Outreach Division
    CODE.
    #55 - 2015-06-22 16:08:39 UTC
    Jason Baros wrote:

    Please stop balancing the game with a seldge hammer and start looking at what causes ships to be OP. The medium rail nerf hit not only tengus but EVERY single cruiser that uses hybrids.


    The other rail ships where (or still are?) also super strong. A rail nerv was needed.
    Just as a drone nerv is needed. Not sure if DDA is the right way to do it, but it's something.

    Not just the Ishtar is the problem.

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    Gorski Car
    #56 - 2015-06-22 16:10:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Gorski Car
    Another great round of changes. DDAS have been way too strong for a long time and drone ships tend to be the strongest in every single ship class.

    Tempest buff is good and probably way better then most ppl understand. its around 20% dps buff.

    I would have loved a application bonus though.


    edit: dont forget that DDAs had 19% drone dmg when introduced. they are simply brought back to original statsish

    Collect this post

    Skydott
    KHAN TENGRI
    #57 - 2015-06-22 16:11:01 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Alexander McKeon wrote:
    Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.

    For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter.


    This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.

    Or you can make light/medium/large/CAPITAL sentry drones sizes. with equal stats and damage. (No siege sentry moros Big smile)
    Canon Makanen
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #58 - 2015-06-22 16:11:07 UTC
    The DDA nerf is fair, but the slot change is not very desirable. Because now it is almost impossible to use shield tank, and this is also the same idea of Vexor Navy Issue(Only the drone bay different). You should just keep the slot location.
    Gremk
    The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort
    Freight Train Diplomacy
    #59 - 2015-06-22 16:11:19 UTC
    At first I was slightly against the DDA change but I think this is actually going to be a good change. I think you should consider giving the Ishtar a slight bonus to hybrids in some way to really turn it into a heavy brawler and just be done with sentries on the Ishtar.

    I think there should be some consideration as to how the DDA will indirectly impact supers though... I think it'll be a good change for all other drone boats though.

    The only thing I find frustrating about drone boats is how easy it is to wipe their DPS when using heavies/medium/lights. Lowering the DPS is understandable but don't forget the HUGE drawbacks of having a DPS platform that is 100% destructible.

    Altrue
    Exploration Frontier inc
    Tactical-Retreat
    #60 - 2015-06-22 16:12:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
    Beyond the obvious ENORMOUS Ishtar balance issues (ultimate ship for PvP AND PvE in most situations anyone?), the question of drone balance in general begs to be asked.

    I wish there was a counter as easy as firewalling for drones, because they are sure as hell getting out of hand atm. I'm sure you're communicating damage stats between devs, and Fozzie just announced that drone boats ships are top damage for Frigates AND Pirate Frigates AND Cruisers AND Navy Cruisers AND Heavy Assault Cruisers AND Battleships.

    At this stage refusing to do something substantial is not bad judgment, it is clearly turning a blind eye voluntarily. Shocked

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