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[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

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Author
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#321 - 2015-06-23 08:34:12 UTC
To mare wrote:
judging from all the people crying about this pass it seems that CCP finally hit the right spot this time

They just nerfed everyone's ISK farming, that's all.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#322 - 2015-06-23 08:37:01 UTC
Adriana Shi wrote:
Alexander McKeon wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.
And every single one of those hulls gets a generic bonus applying to all drone types, EXCEPT the Ishtar. It is also notable that only the VNI & Ishtar have what could be called a 'projection' bonus, though the VNI just gets drones to you faster. Sentries on sub-battleship hulls are fine. Sentries with bonused optimal range and tracking on those hull sizes are not balanced, and you won't find that on any of the drone boats you mentioned save this one.

Vexor: +50% damage & HP
Myrmidon: +50% damage & HP
Eos: +50% Damage & HP
Tristan: +50% HP & Tracking speed (Only has bandwidth for a flight of lights, two mediums, or one heavy)
VNI: +50% Drone HP/damage, +25% Max Velocity & Tracking

Ishtar: +25% Sentry HP & Damage, +50% HP/Damage other drones, +37.5% Heavy Drone max velocity & tracking
+25% Sentry drone optimal range & tracking speed, +25km to drone operation range.

Only one of these drone ships has a bonus to damage projection (which is important for sentries) and gets a bonus to drone control range, requiring fewer fitting compromises in order to kill a target 100km away. No other ship listed here can sit at such a range from their target while making as few fitting compromises as the Ishtar to get their drones working so far away, nor has the drone bandwidth / bay to deploy three full flights of sentries.

The Ishtar is uniquely able amongst sub-battleship hulls to deploy sentry drones which are effective at long engagement ranges, control them from such a range, and carry enough drones to be effective over a sustained engagement. These things are why the Ishtar is broken. Remove the sentry application bonuses, keep the sentry DPS buff at +25%, and you'll find a much more balanced hull.


This Alllllll of this!

imo its not Shield Tar's that are broken or fast tar's that are... its the fact it can wield 5 sents and lulz at you 100+k away
that extra omni for Traits anyone?
i hope you realize CCP, You're killing the shield tar pretty hard here i know Gallent isn't really supposed to be shields but its nice to have more then 1 line of shield drone boats ie Gurista's. Shield domi isn't good, Shield Myrm? LULZ
Also you realize you just made another VNI with that slot change?
So honestly unless you're planning on Adding more shield drone boats i think this is a bad call.



They're 100km away and hard to catch.

It's a HELL of a lot easier to catch and gangbang a 1600mm ishtar than a shield one.
Hell's Hauler
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#323 - 2015-06-23 08:41:04 UTC
Just shows how out of touch CCP are, and how little they know of the current meta

It would be a easy fix to give the ishtar MEDIUM super bonused drones that didnt lose its offensive power, and removed the plague that is 70km away sentry **** machines

But no, you have nuked EVERY drone boat now

Seriously stop using a dart board to pick what to nerf and try playing your own game maybe?
Lidia Caderu
Zero To High
Worst Alliance Ever
#324 - 2015-06-23 08:44:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Lidia Caderu
Maybe you just cut bandwith to ~65mb for Ishtar. And 50mb for Vexor so each ship will use drones of its size. I mean meadium-size ships use medium drones. Large ships use large drones. Also return slots that you've taken for bandwidth and droneaby.
fox targaryen
Doomheim
#325 - 2015-06-23 09:21:33 UTC
the problem isn't drones, the problem is all the drone ships have stupidly insane bonuses

you're going to keep nerfing around the problem until no one uses drones whatsoever
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#326 - 2015-06-23 09:27:42 UTC
Hell's Hauler wrote:
Just shows how out of touch CCP are, and how little they know of the current meta

It would be a easy fix to give the ishtar MEDIUM super bonused drones that didnt lose its offensive power, and removed the plague that is 70km away sentry **** machines

But no, you have nuked EVERY drone boat now

Seriously stop using a dart board to pick what to nerf and try playing your own game maybe?

Question for you - if drone-boats are the most prolific PvP platforms at the moment, and seem a tad OP, how does nerfing the ishtar only fix that problem? Fozzie isn't Larrikin - I think he knows what he's doing in this case.

Lidia Caderu wrote:
Maybe you just cut bandwith to ~65mb for Ishtar. And 50mb for Vexor so each ship will use drones of its size. I mean meadium-size ships use medium drones. Large ships use large drones. Also return slots that you've taken for bandwidth and droneaby.

When you have a moment to reflect after cooling down from a knee-jerk 'waaaaah', could you perhaps explain why you want to take away something that makes drone-based gameplay as fun as it is now - the fluidity with which you can switch this weapons class?

Riot Girl wrote:

They just nerfed everyone's ISK farming, that's all.

+1 to that - afkTars are still annoying as hell to see..

Trajan Unknown wrote:
From what I have seen in these sentry slugfests speed was no problem neither was tank. You simply can´t reach the Ishtars at all in most cases. So even a slow less tanky Ishtar would be more or less the same as the one before.


You, sir, get double bingo points for hitting a double oxymoron. Neither speed nor tank is a problem because you cannot counter them? And reducing their speed or tank would be of no use because .. they would be just as uncounterable? That's just .. TEST level bad.

To mare wrote:
judging from all the people crying about this pass it seems that CCP finally hit the right spot this time

That's not the most reliable metric to gauge the success of a balance pass - check previous threads where things were universally considered bad (like Overview Icons) or current ones that generally seem to be badly thought out (like Fleet Warp Changes).
Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#327 - 2015-06-23 09:28:59 UTC
Dez Affinity wrote:
The beauty of this Ishtar thing is that you guys haven't learned a thing.

You introduced DDAs, DPS goes up because the base damage was already somewhat balanced but applying it is still difficult with drone mwd speed, tracking and the easy killing of mobile drones.
But then you introduced Omnis and suddenly sentries are doubling their range and tracking. Projection goes crazy.
Double down on the change by giving a bunch of ships optimal bonuses.

So you're still trying to figure out how to fix this mess while introducing tracking mods for missiles that are improving on ranges that are already balanced (if not op already on some bonused ships, barring HAM/Torps)

So the Ishtar will die, once you've figured out it's not the damage but the ability to kite and project damage so much better than anything else.

Then 150km Caracals, Cerbs and Ravens will be the flavour of the year you spend trying to figure out what went wrong, nerfing every mod and ship on the way down until you figure out those tracking mods were the cause.

Poor Amarr though, their drone ships are getting beat up and then their missile ships will get a kick in too. At least they've still got the zealot, right?


Despite the angered tone a good reasoned argument.

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny

Dwaigon Aumer
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#328 - 2015-06-23 09:29:22 UTC
Ishtar nerf +1 but removing sentry bonus was better
Tempest bonus +1

MOAR Minmatar love please !!

Minmatar FTW!!

Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#329 - 2015-06-23 09:42:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Roy Henry wrote:
Why not just remove sentry bonuses from the hull instead of nerfing sentries, drones, and ishtars themselves? How much collateral damage has been caused to all other drone and sentry ships trying to fix this issue when simply removing the overpowered bonuses from the ship would have removed the sentry Ishtar in the first place?


all drone boats are OP. (yeah. unpopular statement, I know). Why? Because (a) your ammo is for free. (b) you got the DPS *and* the range -- usually, you have either/or. (c) you're not using any highslots for your drones, giving you a full high rack PLUS another full weapon system on top of that. (d) you're bonussed for the whole range from small to X-Large targets, whereas turret or missile boats often only get bonusses for one size.


Put Drone DPS, tracking & range performance being independent of the host ship's direction, velocity or range relative the target as your (a). Smile

TRANSVERSAL - WHAT'S THAT?


No tracking, effectively - always working with perfection once in orbit, or if the target is actively fleeing or otherwise maneuvering to mitigate damage. Mitigate damage. LEL
Omni damage
Cap-less
Ammo-less
Require no fittings, practically
Base tracking on Heavies that can hit ABing Destroyers
DDAs that are out of proportion, and are OP relative to base drone attributes and the legacy 50% hitpoint/damage hull bonuses
Each drone's EHP equal to whole cruisers, making their destruction a non-option most of the time
Can't be TD's
Can't be jammed, practically
Can't be neuted
Can't be damped
Host ship always has full tank & full Ewar and/or tackle.
Out of whack cruiser drone bandwidth, mainly on the Vexor line, lets them do Battleship DPS at Battleship ranges

What's not to like. Smile

Drone Cruisers Online - After the Ishtar, Gila will take up the torch and VNI will still do 700 DPS at Battleship ranges.

Hell's Hauler wrote:
Just shows how out of touch CCP are, and how little they know of the current meta

It would be a easy fix to give the ishtar MEDIUM super bonused drones that didnt lose its offensive power, and removed the plague that is 70km away sentry **** machines

But no, you have nuked EVERY drone boat now

Seriously stop using a dart board to pick what to nerf and try playing your own game maybe?


http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1

Please, calm down, fellow spacepilot space dron spaceship user. Smile
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#330 - 2015-06-23 09:45:38 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
I wouldn't be so sure. Those missile mods are going to do extremely bad things to the meta.

And dear god that chart is hideously misleading, you really shouldn't post it. Try this one http://i.imgur.com/yfeQpc4.jpg
Kane Carnifex
Spooks On Pings
SE7EN-SINS
#331 - 2015-06-23 09:46:15 UTC
I wouldn´t nerf all drone boats... i would nerf the ishtar Cool

I am not able to see the big picture behind the drone nerf....

http://vesuvi.de - EVE & Food Porn in German...

Maxwell Smiles
Exiled Kings
Pain And Compliance
#332 - 2015-06-23 09:52:15 UTC
Great Changes, Love them +1, but can we stop changing the ishtar, kinda getting bored refitting them every 6 weeks

How about changing the drone link augmenter as well Half the CPU usage and half the bonus provided by them so u need twice as many to get the same range, using up some of the utility highs that people complain about. It would also make it easier to fit onto smaller ships like destroyers etc that may want to use them but cant.


Neok1337
Cloaked Goof
Goonswarm Federation
#333 - 2015-06-23 09:56:18 UTC
Someone posted on the first page and said about the ability to detach dps when you drop dentrys.

But how about if insted of dropping them they just set up a fixed orbit around the ship.

Then there would be less droping sentrys and kiteing away, then sentrys wouldnt have to be nerfed too much crippling their use in other ships.

Neok1337

Steel Fury. // Triumvirate

"Whilst we stand, we fight. Whilst we fight, we prevail. Nothing shall stay our wrath."

-Marneus Calgar

wopolusa
Anti-Nub Incorporated
Centipede Caliphate.
#334 - 2015-06-23 10:24:52 UTC
Hell's Hauler wrote:
Just shows how out of touch CCP are, and how little they know of the current meta

It would be a easy fix to give the ishtar MEDIUM super bonused drones that didnt lose its offensive power, and removed the plague that is 70km away sentry **** machines

But no, you have nuked EVERY drone boat now

Seriously stop using a dart board to pick what to nerf and try playing your own game maybe?


You mean... providing the data showing that top damage dealers of virtually every sub-capital class are drone boats and then dropping 1-3% off the DDA damage multiplier is 'nuked'.

Is your only knowledge of 'nukes' based on korea or??
UCara
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#335 - 2015-06-23 10:45:05 UTC
Oh My Lord!!!

Stop being stupid ccp, ishtars are not being used that much already, just nerf sentry bonus from it, stop screwing with the ship, why don't you rebalance the other HACs instead, GIVE instead of TAKING...

Game stability is soo good you put so much effort in nerfing stuff...
Gary Goat
BLOPSEC
WE FORM V0LTA
#336 - 2015-06-23 10:53:37 UTC
The problem with sentry drones is that they allow cruiser size ships to project damage out to ranges that no other cruiser sized hull can match. Couple that with the ability to detach from your main DPS source and it makes smaller, mobile ships like the ishtar insanly powerful.

How about having sentry drones use cap from their parent ship to maintain DPS/Range? There would essentially be two modes the drones can operate in.

Cap Mode: Exactly the same as current sentry drones but nos the parent ship to power themselves. Nos range limited to 10km. Cap use similar to medium turrets. (i'm talking old nos mechanics here, they keep draining cap)

Capless mode: Damage/range penalty. The drones switch to this mode if the parent ship moves out of range or runs out of cap.







Kendarr
Infinite Violence
Trigger Happy.
#337 - 2015-06-23 11:16:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Kendarr
Alexander McKeon wrote:
Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.

For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter.

Edit: for the sake of completeness regarding weapon size vs. hull size, I'll note that ABCs were specifically designed with design sacrifices (notably tank) in mind to compensate for their oversized guns, which i find a reasonable exception. Those hulls are balanced and have their uses, but do not distrort the meta to the point you're either flying Ishtars, or flying a fleet designed to counter Ishtars.


That is a very fair summary. I agree with this dude.

The Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls.

I know its easy when you see these changes to be like OMFG BBQ THESE CHANGES ARE STUPID, people should really try to give a little more constructive feedback. sure, you do not like these changes but how would you suggest tackling the wack an ishtar problem?
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#338 - 2015-06-23 11:17:50 UTC
Nice to see you might be doing something to increase use of battlecruisers & battleships.

BUT you are still not listening to the majority and making the correct decision regarding the Ishtar and it's usage in PvP.

Please can you stop making changes which are affecting other ships where there is not a significant problem.

Just remove sentry drone use from the Ishtar and not make the current listed changes to the Ishtar which you are announcing here.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

Motorbit
Moira.
Villore Accords
#339 - 2015-06-23 11:24:02 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Alexander McKeon wrote:
Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.

For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter.


This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.


from my perspective the damage bonus for undersized weapons make drone boats annoying. usually larger ships can either be fitted to be strong against smaller ships or ships of their own size, but not both. drone ships dont have this drawback and so they are very hard to counter.

note: im doing mostly small gang and solo stuff in lowsec. im not realy interested in large fleet fights or capital ship engagements, so i cant realy say anything about this oversized weapons argument.
however, i would rather see the holy cow drone flexibility slaugthered then all drone damage nerfed to death untill all drone ships are useless.
as an excample i think nerfing the ishkur currently is a realy bad idea, especially as assault frigates currently are very unattractive.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#340 - 2015-06-23 11:26:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
The proposed drop in DDA performance isn't too bad I suppose but it isn't actually needed as there isn't much of a problem with PvE drone boats like the DominixOops. I did notice after the change to sentry drones before this that the Garde II isn't that good now so I would rather you fix the Ishtar by removing Sentry use from it than downgrade usage of other ships with sweeping changes.

Can CCP Rise please give his reasoning for not removing sentry drone bonuses or sentry drone use from the Ishtar please Question

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .