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[Aegis] More balance! - Ishtars, DDAs and the Tempest

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Bunka en Daire
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#21 - 2015-06-22 15:44:02 UTC
Why u just dont delete drone boats from game???
Even better u can mix up vexor and ishtar in one ship, so no more efforts for nerfing.

Or better why u just do not BUFF other ships, so u must nerf all drone boats, because of tiiiiit BLOBERS?

So when some1 invest year in training drones, u just nerf them and u make that one year of training pointless...

Bad thing with all this nerfing is beacuse u base all that on +200 mans fleet...so....do u think all eve players are part of CFC, PL, and other so called alliances who enjoy to blob 200 ishtars on one Maelstrom???
Mind Rape
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#22 - 2015-06-22 15:44:12 UTC
don't make ships better, just make them worse = balancing a'la CCP

gg
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#23 - 2015-06-22 15:44:30 UTC
Jackie Fisher wrote:
Problem: Ishtar
Solution: Nerf everything!

Just as well you guys didn't chose medicine as a career:
Patient: I've got an ingrowing toenail
Dr CCP : No problem, we'll just amputate both legs, hmm, better take the arms as well just to be safe. Not sure you really need two eyes either


The vast majority of drone ships in the game are very strong, and will continue to be after these changes.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2015-06-22 15:45:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Nafensoriel
I'm trying to figure out the justification to even pretending drones are seen as a valid primary weapon system by ccp at the moment..

The type and method of changes recently depict that you intend drones to be secondary in nature.. so stop half a**ing it with omninerfs and make the design decision to do that.

Either that or force sentries to be used on stationary hulls.

/edit And as the above poster said.. These changes don't stop drone dominance at the moment.
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#25 - 2015-06-22 15:45:16 UTC
Dez Affinity wrote:
You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results.


Whack an Ishtar.

@ccp_rise
Aplysia Vejun
Children of Agasul
#26 - 2015-06-22 15:46:06 UTC
Airi Cho wrote:
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
Make the slowest HAC even slower. Great idea! BC-Speed is nice! Under 1300m/s in an armor fit with a mwd.


We all will be so sad to see ishtars less.


Ok with shield ishtars. But does this make brawling an alternative? No. Everyone can just fly away.
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#27 - 2015-06-22 15:46:11 UTC
Mind **** wrote:
don't make ships better, just make them worse = balancing a'la CCP

gg


Because this causes power-creep, instead of balancing drones and the Ishtar, if you boost every single other thing, you then have even more balancing problems (very like to have a lot of overtuned/undertuned with the new buff numbers when you change so much stuff) then you have existing content like PVE getting easier due to more powerful player ships.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#28 - 2015-06-22 15:46:57 UTC
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
Airi Cho wrote:
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
Make the slowest HAC even slower. Great idea! BC-Speed is nice! Under 1300m/s in an armor fit with a mwd.


We all will be so sad to see ishtars less.


Ok with shield ishtars. But does this make brawling an alternative? No. Everyone can just fly away.


The current power level of drone ships is one of the reason why the kite-meta is so prevalent

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Lucas Quaan
DEMONS OF THE HIDDEN MIST
TRUTH. HONOUR. LIGHT.
#29 - 2015-06-22 15:47:30 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level.

Still has the wrong slot layout, though.
Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#30 - 2015-06-22 15:47:44 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Dez Affinity wrote:
You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results.


Whack an Ishtar.


Remove drone tracking mods. Rebalance sentry drones independently.

Problem fixed
Arla Sarain
#31 - 2015-06-22 15:48:07 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Is the Drone Damage Amp nerf too much?

The damage reduction is largely trivial in comparison to the random damage range.
Won't even notice it.
Krista von Peyote
Konpaku Gardening Services
#32 - 2015-06-22 15:48:32 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
One more post for the Aegis release covering a couple more small balance changes.

First of all, the Ishtar. In our ongoing to quest to find out exactly what it will take to move the Ishtar off its throne as the most dominant PVP ship in EVE, we are going to make the following changes:
  • -1 mid slot, +1 low slot
  • Decrease in mass from 1,100,000 to 1060000
  • Decrease in max velocity from 185m/s to 175m/s
  • Agility going from .52 to .565
  • Power grid lowered from 780 to 740

    • Overall these changes should put a lot of pressure on speed based, shield fits (especially those using over-sized afterburners), forcing a tougher choice between the speed you get with shields and the survivability you get with armor.

    Next up, Drone Damage Amplifiers. While the Ishtar has really taken the spotlight as the most oppressive ship around, drone focused hulls are extremely strong across the board. From the Algos and the Tristan, to the Vexor and the Gila, to the Dominix and the Armageddon we see higher damage output and activity than the competition. For that reason we are going to lower the % damage bonus from DDA's just slightly. Numbers as follows:

    Drone Damage Amplifier I - 15% (was 16%)
    Drone Damage Amplifier II - 20.5% (was 23%)

    Dread Guristas Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)
    Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)
    Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)
    Sentient Drone Damage Amplifier - 23.8% (was 25.8%)

    Unit D-34343's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 24.5% (was (26.5%)
    Unit F-435454's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.15% (was 27.15%)
    Unit P-343554's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 25.8% (was 27.8%)
    Unit W-634's Modified Drone Damage Amplifier - 26.5% (was 28.5%)


    And let's finish on a high note, the Tempest! We are looking at a wider set of Battleship and Battlecruiser tweaks that will probably come in a later release but part of the package was a Tempest buff and we see no reason to hold back on that while we pin down the rest of the changes.

    We are changing the Tempest's bonus to rate of fire from 5% to 7.5% per level.

    Will the Ishtar be balanced after this? Is the Drone Damage Amp nerf too much? What will you do with a 950 turret dps Tempest? Let us know!


    Those Ishtar changes are fairly big, napkin math tells me post-nerf ishtar will have 50 PG less than current with max skills (925 vs 975) while having more lowslots to fill. It still has far too much fitting, I think the rarely-used turret hardpoints should be removed completely or dropped to 1 and the fitting be adjusted accordingly. The loss of a mid won't completely kill shield ishtars in fleets but it will hurt them a lot which is good. They'll no longer be able to fit 2 LSEs + 2 resist mods which severely impacts their available buffer, however the extra low adds a lot of options while their superlative potential for damage mitigation with 100mn Afterburners is barely changed by the speed drop. Not sure about the ramifications for fleet armor Ishtars but those were never really in vogue like shield fits were, although extra low to play with is very strong. I think the extra low may make the Ishtar even stronger in a small gang or solo environment which is frankly worrying, and it will only help the ship remain the #1 PVE ship of choice.

    DDA changes are nice but they don't really change the major problems with drones (unparalleled application rather than sheer raw damage), just make the ships using them marginally less effective. I doubt this will unseat Tristans or Vexors as the #1 solo t1 ships.

    Tempest buff seems significant but higher paper DPS is fairly inconsequential considering the help it needs to apply it, but it's definitely a start down the road to relevance for battleships.
    Suitonia
    Order of the Red Kestrel
    #33 - 2015-06-22 15:50:04 UTC
    CCP Fozzie - 5:47PM : PVP damage per month leader per class: T1 Frigate - Tristan, Pirate Frigate - Worm, T1 Cruiser - Vexor, Navy Cruiser - VNI, Pirate Cruiser - Gila, T2 Cruiser - Ishtar, T1 Battleship - Dominix

    http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png

    Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

    Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
    Cr Turist
    Arcana Noctis
    #34 - 2015-06-22 15:50:10 UTC
    and to not buff the TFI is dumb.
    Alexander McKeon
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #35 - 2015-06-22 15:51:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander McKeon
    Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.

    For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter.

    Edit: for the sake of completeness regarding weapon size vs. hull size, I'll note that ABCs were specifically designed with design sacrifices (notably tank) in mind to compensate for their oversized guns, which i find a reasonable exception. Those hulls are balanced and have their uses, but do not distrort the meta to the point you're either flying Ishtars, or flying a fleet designed to counter Ishtars.
    Bunka en Daire
    V0LTA
    WE FORM V0LTA
    #36 - 2015-06-22 15:52:25 UTC
    I want relocating of all my drone SP's, i want to nerf my chars drone skills. Pls help me.
    Altrue
    Exploration Frontier inc
    Tactical-Retreat
    #37 - 2015-06-22 15:52:32 UTC
    Suitonia wrote:
    CCP Fozzie - 5:47PM : PVP damage per month leader per class: T1 Frigate - Tristan, Pirate Frigate - Worm, T1 Cruiser - Vexor, Navy Cruiser - VNI, Pirate Cruiser - Gila, T2 Cruiser - Ishtar, T1 Battleship - Dominix

    http://puu.sh/iyxmt/3448c15a01.png


    This is sick

    Signature Tanking Best Tanking

    [Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

    Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
    Skydott
    KHAN TENGRI
    #38 - 2015-06-22 15:53:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Skydott
    At this patch will you give drone asist ability to shoot in pvp in low sec ?
    https://youtu.be/OomlH1gFpIY
    l0rd carlos
    the king asked me to guard the mountain
    #39 - 2015-06-22 15:53:47 UTC
    Cr Turist wrote:
    and to not buff the TFI is dumb.

    See post #17
    Looks like it will get a buff.

    Or what do you mean?

    Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
    CCP Rise
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #40 - 2015-06-22 15:58:41 UTC
    Alexander McKeon wrote:
    Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.

    For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter.


    This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.

    @ccp_rise