Assembly Hall

Honestly, I don't claim to speak for Goonswarm in the manner your speaking of, but thanks though and I thoroughly appreciate talking to you about this as at least even if we disagree, it's a conversation. In regards to Goonswarm, you'd have to ask someone who has been in there more as they'd know it better. I speak from 9 years of Eve experience with 0.0 alliances (I've taken a few months break twice, so maybe if I had to guess 5 months away from Eve? so it's not a total solid 9 years, but close), NC (I think it was called Northern Coalition, waayy before the current Norther Coalition, back when the FLA was a thing and IRON was a powerhouse, and ISS was given EC- station etc) Dusk and Dawn, Mostly Harmless, Dark and Light, Mistakes Were Made, Space Monkeys Alliance, and some others which I forget sadly but remember the great folks in them.

Yea most of my 'ideas' here are more of just examples and I'm just throwing stuff out there honestly which would need considerable reworking to be plausible. I do think these are better than the jump fatigue thing and even if totally unpolished, would add more to Eve than take away like the Jump Fatigue thing does.

The fact is, in 0.0 logistics is required, whether its for military or not and I for one do not support something that makes a game already known for spreadsheets and an exercise in management, more difficult and tedious for 0.0 alliances. To put it humorously, this just screams Empire kiddos nerfing 0.0 again when they have no real solid understanding or experience living, maintaining, or actively participating in a 0.0 alliance.

I've been in 0.0 alliances for years now, done logistics, reactions, and etc, seen how others do it, and while I'm relatively new to Goonswarm, I have a decent amount of experience with 0.0 politics, military events, and logistics, so to me none of these changes seem to really consider the big picture or what will actually happen to game-play day to day, nor are actually 'good' solutions, despite folks probably trying their best (can't blame them, balance is hard).

Logistics has been part of Eve long before Goonswarm was a thing, and arguably, with an alliance Goonswarm's size logistics is pretty fantastically difficult to manage, so I really give the folks who make it work a ton of credit for what they do.

I think its bad to punish 0.0 alliances with logistics, capital, and JB networks purely when one is trying to account for how power is wield, and frankly with such a broad and negative stroke and devoid of thought. It's also, frankly, extremely naive to how Eve works.

ALL teh versions!

But seriously, its just an idea I thought of in a few minutes, and it needs refining but its just to illustrate the point that many other even surface level ideas are better than this massive game breaking jump fatigue change.



Buffs to nullsec resources and industry: how so?

Personal question, not an attempt to attack you in any way: how much 0.0 logistics have you done in Eve and what kind was it? This helps me understand where you are coming from and see how I can explain where I'm coming from.

Nerfing logistics affects large and small alliances, but more so small or 'new' alliances as they don't have an established method to handle the demanding requirements of logistics.

I'll respond more later, no time at the moment, sorry!

:D *tin foil*

Not sure whom you are referring to, but I agree that sov should have little or nothing to do with capitals in regards to jump fatigue and how this is just bad. With carriers jump range gimped to 5 ly - which is basically a joke in terms of distance - adding a timer to this as well is pretty much full stupid.

Sov does affect JBs, but with jump fatigue on JBs as well, that's kind of a null point since you can go one place and then you're forced to wait. Even though JB jump fatigue is terrible, at least pick one thing to change: sov or have jump fatigue but don't have both as its massive overkill. (I'm still going to hate jump fatigue)

If the issue is sov, then fix sov. Don't break JBs and capitals to fix something different. It just shows scatter brained scatter shot to kill an ant. It seems to suggest that some of the people making the changes have little or no real practical experience with 0.0 mechanics or logistics.

The more and more I hear about these changes the more it sounds like some alliances trying to nerf other alliances specifically, and less about actually balancing the game in any reasonable fashion. Ultimately all of these changes so far make it a lot harder and worse for new alliances that do not have the built in numbers and experience to overcome 0.0 challenges / CCP nerfs.

But by all means! Let's see where this goes. If it makes Eve better, great! Otherwise, nice job nerf warriors. You get full credit for cluster fork-ing Eve

Thanks for the link!

So you haven't done large scale 0.0 logistics, but have done logistics, correct? It's also very relevant to the issue and choosing to ignore it because people have posted x times about y thing, doesn't mean its invalid. It's a very real thing in Eve.

Frankly a lot of this just sounds like dumbing the game down. Of course a larger / more powerful alliance's tag is going to inspire a feeling of 'oh no' to groups not on the same footing. That doesn't mean make a game breaking change to jump mechanics. It's also blatantly devoid of the realities of 0.0. if the goal here is just to make 0.0 'accessible' to smaller alliances by nerfing capital ships and logistics, this is the wrong way to do it.



If we base the entire game off of what 1 person can do vs 100 people, why bother have alliances? Why bother to have teamwork? Why not make this a single player space mining game? Trust me, I like mining, but this is not what Eve is, nor what it should be. This change goes way to far in inhibiting a small alliance from doing their thing as well, as many who have used a JF or Titan Bridge to move freighters, can attest. People can't claim these changes help small alliances out because at the end of the day, the logistics changes hurt them more because they have fewer people to overcome the hurdles of 0.0 than a big alliance. It's just the way it works. If they want to fix sov, fix sov, not capitals and JBs.



I've had many a time (sadly) facing down immediate annihilation but that's part of Eve. The NC vs FLA war. Dusk and Dawn - Band of Brothers (BoB) and Mercenary Coalition (back when a Doomsday cleared an entire field of ships) taking over space our space during one of the BoB wars and me running as fast as one can in a Raven whilst being chased by MC (the makers of this delightful Eve video pron oh lawd and this), into our new home as the reformatted D2 version - Mostly Harmless - in the Drone Regions (before they were named and all had numbers for region names). Then in the drone regions, crisis repping a critical pos as we faced invasion by the Russian blob who had just decimated just about everyone else in the Drone Regions (I died in a carrier that day).

Then there was the alt who asked permission to join Dark and Light in the BoB / MC just before and then during 'Tortuga' short lived dream as they broke off from BoB and had their *stuff* pushed in. Then there was being in Mistakes Were Made and the immediate need to evac titan level infrastructure and assets as the CFC/Test Coalition broke so yes, I'm probably a little bit familiar with the 0.0 storm of annihilation, then there was all of the times PL pushed -whichever alliance I was in at the time- faces in or brought the bat to bear.

As you mentioned, WH's are now the 'go to' mode of travel for logistics - why? Mostly because its easy and makes 0.0 logistics a little easier. That's not the same as saying it will work for alliances that need multiple JFs to move their product and can't rely solely on a random WH location. Players adapt and the likely next thing to get nerfed will be WHs and how they are used to travel. Comparing WHs to actual full level 0.0 logistics is, respectfully, a massive an inadequate stretch and totally different than actual scale 0.0 logistics.

I just don't like the 'hey lets add x' and then people use it, then CCP completely breaks that thing they added. It adds massive upheaval to the game, pisses off players, and is just a silly way to operate.

Jump Fatigue is not the answer, none of the changes so far seem remotely realistic to an actual balanced solution, and on top of that, they impact some of the points they claimed to set out to fix - like making breaking up 0.0 to allow for smaller alliances a 'chance'.

To a large degree, it is EVE, because as I mentioned, no military operation of any more significance than a roam happens without it. Which makes it a fundamental game design issue. It's simply impossible to fix sov without looking at logistics.

One of the goals of your alliance was to wean itself from Jita, which is no surprise: if a tiny alliance can send their one JF from, say, Etherium Reach to Jita to resupply, then you guys can send a hundred JFs from Deklein to resupply. As long as everything's in Jita, and as long as you have a robust logistical chain to Jita, there's no reason to make anything in nullsec--which means that no alliance really lives in their space. They put necessary military assets there, and disposable ratting ships (e.g., AFKtars) while their alliance's heart beat in invincible stations in the unconquerable space of The Forge. Ask your own logistics guys. They'll tell you that GSF built everything within a few jumps of Jita and humped it out to Deklein until these changes. Not even the people who figured out how to make that work well for them liked the arrangement.

But if you can send a hundred JFs for a quick run to Jita from Deklein, you can send anything anywhere in a quick run, and that was the problem. Logistics are force projection, and force projection enables logistics. I'm sure it was glorious to be able to straddle a cluster while I derped around in an Epithal (I never said I was good at logistics), but again, even your own guys accepted that it wasn't sustainable. It was directly responsible for vast swaths of claimed but unused space in nullsec.



I have to disagree here: complicating logistics doesn't dumb anything down (WH logistics are complicated!). Moving your industrial base out into conquerable space doesn't dumb anything down. If you want the awesome space far away from high sec, that's now a choice with a cost. If you want easier logistics, build your own stuff. In your own, claimable space. In conquerable stations. Risk, reward. Logistics is now much more complex and much more interesting than "hump down to Jita." It makes all different kinds of players (potentially!) valuable contributors to an alliance. Big alliances are still a threat, and they will always be, but you can find a remote part of space where they probably won't be a threat unless they're heading through your space on their way somewhere else, or unless they specifically decide to have it in for you. Geography matters now.



Yes, that's a feature: it's the only kind of long-distance jumping that doesn't scale, so it can benefit the little guy without being an even bigger boon to the big guy. So you can see now, the big alliances are contracting and moving their industrial backbone into null. Small alliances are starting to fill the gaps already. It's not easy, and they're not always successful, but that's OK. That's EVE. What's remarkable is that they feel that they have a shot at it. That's new.