Assembly Hall

Well that's the voice of the whargle-garble constituency, everybody.

Now let's hear from the "viable alternative suggestion" demographic.

Since you couldn't be bothered to participate in or even follow or even be aware of the lengthy and closely argued discussion that started a couple of years ago, and which was reprised at length in the change announcement thread, it doesn't seem that it would be a worthwhile expenditure of my time in explaining it to you all over again.

Since I've seen no argument worth responding to as to why this helps any part of Eve beyond just breaking something. No. and since while you were posting about how I didn't read and missed reading where I wrote 'any links would be great' and how I just got back and am learning about this atrocious change.

<3

I agree with what you're saying, some of that stuff just needed to be fixed, but really why would someone not think about these things before adding them? It gets old having things in game for years, planning out training for them for CCP to then be like "oh.. we shouldn't have added it this way'. Other games this kind of thing doesn't matter as much as its no big deal changing your path or skills. In Eve, it takes time to train skills, in many cases, years.

As much as I'd like a giant hammer to just OP everything to death, I understand why the Titan changes were made. It just shows a pattern of how things are implemented that's just plain frustrating.

It would be great that instead of nerfing the crap out of things, something else was added to the game instead to balance it out. What that would be in this case is a good question.

Also, how many times ever has CCP said 'oh we won't add that' when they announce ahead of time to folks something and folks say 'we don't like that'? Pretty much never (except maybe the item-shop-debacle of rumored '''''gold ammo'''') several years ago.

For example, capitals and supercapitals can now use gates. That's a pretty big balancing change.

Well the travel changes are explicitly supposed to be a power projection nerf. A "balancing change" that was 'a big enough positive' wouldn't really meet the target goals.

Anyway: you asked for the reason for the jump fatigue mechanic. You've been given a source for the reasons.

It's thoroughly evident that you're not going to accept those reasons and are just sealioning, so at this point I will content myself with the following

1) I did it: it was me. Along with Manfred Sideous, Marlona Sky, I campaigned as hard as I could for a power projection nerf; it was one of the core issues in my CSM campaign, and I was voted in by the players who were left in no doubt whatsoever about my views on the topic. I put the case as passionately and eloquently as I could, face to face in person, with Fozzie until he cried and asked me to stop.

So that answers your other question about who voted for this, and I get to smug about being instrumental in making it happen too.

2) Immediately after it was announced - before it was even implemented - the PP nerf started having the desired effect, and now 6 months later the EVE sov map is hugely more diverse and fragmented. From a single political axis between CFC:N3 a year ago, we now have this with whatever the factorial of all those independent blocs are to provide content and drive events.

So I also get to smug about being proved completely correct about the effects of power projection, and the visible and undeniable benefits of removing it.


Your move, kid. I'll be over here, making things happen and being right.

Sorry, I can't make out what you're saying over the background sound of the sov map being radically redrawn and multiple independent new coalitions showing up.

Goons have sov?

Last I checked your alliance was blue to the Imperium. Although I just recently rejoined Goons after being away, I find they get a lot less butthurt about losing ships and sov than everyone else in Eve and can still find enjoyment in the game no matter what happens. After all, they just blew up a stupidly expensive and rare hundred bil ship for giggles and it was an epic fun event.

Changes that affect logistics affect everyone, and while I miss the days of seeing lots of big name alliances holding various areas of space with their allies (06-07 time period, Dusk and Dawn, Razor, MM, for better or worse-BOB, ASCN, RA, etc), changing logistics mechanics via the jump fatigue thing is a bit nutty.

One could just expect that this whole argument about 'power' and how its wield, is now more than ever a numbers game. Who has the most pilots in a set area of space to respond to an area under attack. Or, imagine that, all those capitals in the game just being left where they're needed and more being built to be left in another area, so the whole 'jumping range' or 'fatigue' business becomes an ignored -if annoying- 'feature' of Eve. Game mechanic changes like this are just like building sandcastle walls at low tide and claiming victory against the ocean.

So while the shift from fast travel has been nerfed in a game which is impossibly long and boring to travel in, one might expect an upswing of the 'mega-alliance' numbers thing, which is a whole nother debate altogether, and harkens back to the 'we miss the massive doomsday weapon' thing that cleared fields of ships (although lets be honest, that DD mechanic is never coming back and with as many Titans in-game right now, 0.0 Eve would just turn into a strobe-light-flash animation game).

Yeah. Welp. They did. Given that they didn't think about things before adding them, and they're now part of the game, what would you have them do?



There's not much point in trying to buff something when you don't have a clear idea of what that something's role will be. CCP has said that they'd like to make supers fun again , and that they need a new role post-Dominion, but that's a slightly harder problem than, say, making the Omen worth flying.

If you have any ideas, you could rescue Manny's thread from obscurity and share them.

I guess I'd start by thinking about what impact a change would have. If your goal is to shake up 0.0 and change sov mechanics, then you would focus on that instead of hindering 0.0 logistics, nerfing jump bridges, and impairing capitals.

You might try to argue that these changes were made to impact how sov works and I'll go ahead and agree that things have changed, but not for the better, it goes too far, and it doesn't seem to be the right way to go about it. If you want to change sov, change sov then. Limit the number of players in alliances, etc, but don't fundamentally change capital ships and 0.0 logistics in this blanket-all 'solution' that will -and is- causing more headache for everyone, not because its a good way to do it, but because its just so bad that it requires reworking everything. Like adding 70 speed-bumps to a highway as a way to stop people going over the speed-limit - it's too much, and while well meant, probably over the top by 700%. People have to go slow, not because its a good idea, but because the highway is broken now.

It's all well and good to have a bunch of new space opened up for other alliances, until those alliances can do fork-all trying to maintain them with logistics and the huge headache involved for 'new' alliances trying to figure this debacle out when they end up having to live in the butt end of the Eve Universe because the established alliances pick the spots they work best for them. Not sure if anyone can relate, but living in the drone regions requires some real stiff logistics not to mention other regions and just nerfing 0.0 logistics right from the get go, gimps new alliances trying to make their mark while the established ones are like 'meh' and keep hitting hard.

This just all ties back to the original point that before stuff is added to Eve it should be thought out more, because just nerfing something after the fact often makes things worse for everyone and causes a lot of headache. It would be great if positive counters could be added to things (like an anti-capital, or a module that disrupts JBs - which you can deploy and or destroy). It shouldn't require removing or cutting the legs off a table. Adding a positive counter (this is what I'm calling the opposite change of a nerf, without being a 'boost') would allow for more stuff to do in Eve, enhance the game, and recognize something that needs to be balanced better. A deployable JB disruption item, or cyno prevention mod, could be just one of those. Plus, it's just one more way to be strategic but the balance of it would need to be worked out too so you can't spam these things indefinitely.

One doesn't have to provide an alternate suggestion just to prove or point out that the currently mechanic change is bad for Eve. It's bad because its bad and it's pissed people off by breaking a decade old eve mechanic in capital ships and breaking 0.0 JBs. Its not asking very much for what the OP is asking - that the CSM bring these complaints to CCP to see if there is a better solution. Those presumptuous enough to suggest this shouldn't be thought out, obviously don't speak for all of Eve and this kind of big change needs more thought.


I like the post you sent, as it gives food for thought. Essentially people think about whether they think capital ships should be in Eve anymore because these changes fundamentally alter capital ships role. I for one think capital ships are a pivotal part of the space sci-fi genre, but not everyone has to agree or is going to agree, it would just be sad to think of space sci-fi without capital ships.

But at least in a universe without capitals, the fish would be safe.